Transcript of RuneScape Podcast #39: Quests Exposed - Part 2

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[00:07] hello and welcome back to part two of
[00:10] quest exposed and now model Raven has
[00:14] finished regaling us with tales of his
[00:15] glories inquest ribbon and stop right so
[00:20] we've got quite far through development
[00:22] net you've gone through various cycles
[00:24] you've got environments built and
[00:26] suchlike what's the closing stages of
[00:28] quests then it's done chip it on say
[00:34] testing maybe oh yes integrated part the
[00:38] development right here is now yeah you
[00:40] test the whole thing as a whole because
[00:41] we we we break it up into bits when
[00:43] we're testing it at the moment with that
[00:45] sort of sprint structure and then you
[00:47] try everything a one go because there
[00:49] are things that worked fine before but
[00:51] then suddenly don't yeah his heart of
[00:54] stone will prove and of course once
[00:56] we've got all there you can see how it
[00:57] properly flows from beginning to end you
[00:59] get over this is of like the point that
[01:01] it goes out for like wider team feedback
[01:04] I mean it's been getting feedback fair
[01:05] the whole thing jewelry from inside the
[01:07] team and stakeholders but this but you
[01:09] can go so what you have people just play
[01:11] for it Alistair give their opinion it's
[01:13] good further again for getting fresh
[01:15] eyes on the almost finalized products
[01:18] because people that have been giving
[01:19] feedback throughout you've kind of got
[01:21] that built up bias I suppose yet because
[01:25] you've seen all the different iterations
[01:26] whereas when we do the wider team
[01:29] feedback is just everybody is new to it
[01:31] everyone's fresh and seeing it from a
[01:33] player's perspective well this is about
[01:35] the point the community team for
[01:36] instance gets to look at it when there's
[01:38] the wide play through all the community
[01:40] managers get off an opportunity to play
[01:42] through all the quests and then provide
[01:44] feedback we need to and also be aware of
[01:46] how we need to talk about it to the
[01:47] community is what shouldn't we we
[01:49] introduce ourselves because it's a new
[01:50] day that's good point yes yes yes Matt
[01:53] hey but I'm used to being here you are
[01:55] hello again I'm mod Wilson I'm still
[01:58] monster I am utterly ma Jack and I'm mud
[02:02] raven and it's Saturday yeah
[02:06] saturday when they're listening to this
[02:08] year are they they do know we don't come
[02:11] in to steal the phone not understand
[02:12] okay Bri prakan magic yes children of
[02:16] the world we won't explain that week to
[02:18] come in on such a lovely war so much
[02:21] yeah I often come in on Saturday to get
[02:23] 60 we've done this is nothing like a
[02:26] little someday I raid the fridge free
[02:29] stuff free stuff I be have to get into
[02:32] this room this is a special lochte room
[02:35] with a special part it's not locked in
[02:37] any serious way I mean look at there's
[02:38] no ceiling right so yeah so qet
[02:43] management I get so look at it then and
[02:45] of course a lot alongside your
[02:47] development stuff creative services
[02:49] would have been making artwork into put
[02:52] out with the release and marketing will
[02:55] have been working on news posts and
[02:57] stuff like that to go with it as well
[02:58] yeah and we'll be doing documentation
[03:00] for the flows those teams they can get a
[03:02] condensed understanding of the project
[03:04] from their perspective so what aspects
[03:06] of it on the selling points what what
[03:10] maybe things we don't want to reveal and
[03:13] the scenes video what it's like yeah
[03:14] they say foo the big big that monster is
[03:17] you files at the end or whatever it is
[03:18] yeah yeah because we don't normally want
[03:21] BTS is to spoiler the entire thing for a
[03:23] player now and then it's released swype
[03:25] months after release we know I was done
[03:31] okay we hang around in game yeah hanging
[03:34] around near request that point sassing
[03:36] people is right that's your job I don't
[03:41] think is to serve like speaking for
[03:45] everybody but I think it's generally the
[03:46] most enjoyable part is so exciting yep
[03:50] it just keeps good to go in because it's
[03:52] not just in game but we going like
[03:54] reddit Twitter at the forums and you
[03:57] know we go around looking for feedback
[04:00] mostly we're going looking for glory
[04:02] it's before the work in and I'll be
[04:05] honest we like to say sure this is cool
[04:07] yes enjoy it I like you goof
[04:10] in reply wouldn't waste are you
[04:12] expecting you know sometimes Muppets
[04:14] working on actually oh they like it they
[04:17] really make it to me you know it good
[04:19] all it done all they hate it and then
[04:21] you spend your time doing okay what do
[04:23] they why is it they really don't like
[04:25] can you try and work out ways to fix it
[04:28] not for them obviously people do hate
[04:31] because they've already played it and
[04:32] you can't currently repeat a lot of
[04:33] quests but you can make it better for
[04:37] the next way that people play yeah and
[04:40] generally in the forums that it's the
[04:42] first place where people start posting
[04:43] saying sort of like I've run into
[04:45] something is this a bug and you're able
[04:46] to jump on it you quite a knack if it is
[04:48] if it is something like that or if it's
[04:50] not then people just start yelling at
[04:53] that person telling them how to play it
[04:54] properly we're all we were always making
[04:56] difficult calls like is this is this
[04:58] actually going to be intuitive enough
[04:59] for people up are people gonna be able
[05:01] to get through this bit have we made the
[05:03] right balance here challenge and
[05:05] accessibility and then what the media
[05:07] day 1feedback tells us whether we got it
[05:08] right one of the things that we can do
[05:10] these days which we didn't like right
[05:11] the very start when i joined first is b
[05:14] canal watch people streaming as they
[05:15] live play the quest yeah yeah i mean i
[05:17] was watching the broken home i cant on
[05:20] the who who did it but just they got to
[05:22] that first room weather so I'm get
[05:23] snatched into the portrait makes scream'
[05:25] dad yelled water fresh hey Alicia today
[05:30] great another great thing I think we've
[05:33] been doing in recent years more behind
[05:35] the scenes is that we've got our
[05:37] analytics team now the guys just pouring
[05:40] over every single statistical detail of
[05:42] contents release and we can see things
[05:45] like the lowest and average completion
[05:47] times all of the stages of every quest
[05:50] to see where a loss of players drop off
[05:52] yep kind of get stuck so that we can
[05:54] direct any further changes we make to
[05:58] kind of smooth things out and help
[05:59] players to overcome maybe some of the
[06:03] intuitive elements that we haven't kind
[06:04] of picked and it's also say that we just
[06:06] nerf it whenever it's hard no there are
[06:09] but we have an hour our real sticking
[06:11] points that aren't supposed to be
[06:12] sticking points or so there's no puzzle
[06:13] why are people stopping there yeah yeah
[06:15] yeahs and realized it's not a scientist
[06:17] needed to turn foot surgery it's not
[06:20] about easy it's just about it yeah
[06:22] approachability
[06:23] accessibility so at this point the
[06:25] community team feedback which I remember
[06:28] we obviously feedback to the developers
[06:31] let them know what the responses and and
[06:34] where that where we're seeing bugs or
[06:36] issues or or really good feedback as
[06:39] well it has happened it doesn't get
[06:42] quite a lot of very good feedback right
[06:44] okay so that's quest and then it ends up
[06:47] on our wiki and ends up on the runescape
[06:51] wiki wiki and guys get made for it and
[06:55] it is immortal and players the dig
[06:58] through to find all of the trivia and
[06:59] the shoutouts that we've done and put
[07:02] the little bottom of the page and then
[07:03] it ends up on like TV tropes and stuff
[07:05] like that if we've been particularly
[07:07] cheesy real as it approaches the real
[07:10] prize oh yeah yeah yeah right okay I'm
[07:12] really really pleased to see a lot of
[07:13] the stuff up I've done this one Apple TV
[07:15] Tropes yes speaker with where'd you go
[07:19] for inspiration leave me try to yeah
[07:23] actually from from a narrative design
[07:27] approach I've fund that every story has
[07:30] already been told to some extent and
[07:32] it's really about choosing which trope
[07:34] you want to work on or perhaps riff on
[07:37] or avoid yeah or it will do avoid so
[07:39] actually I find that the tropes are very
[07:41] beneficial in defining the structure of
[07:44] the store ever want to be telling even a
[07:46] sturdy construction of a well-known
[07:48] story yeah I'm sorry to make you a bit
[07:51] more personal at the moment but I'm
[07:52] finding this very much with the meraki
[07:55] quest at the minute right it's vampires
[07:58] it's kind of well-trodden ground it is
[08:01] yes very difficult to come up with
[08:03] something that's a bit different than
[08:04] you this make sure the last 20
[08:07] years that's maybe were thinking about
[08:09] in that's part of our job hmm some of
[08:12] them really talked about is is not to
[08:15] just do what's expected but to come up
[08:18] with something fresh and interesting the
[08:20] pies aren't expecting cuz they're so
[08:22] next but particularly the next next
[08:23] episode in a series if certain
[08:25] expectation certain subjects they're
[08:26] expecting to be covered in a certain
[08:27] resolution now expecting but actually
[08:29] our job is to surprise them and have
[08:32] something that they weren't really
[08:33] expecting and that's quite difficult
[08:35] yeah how does that affect the law of
[08:38] requests because of it obviously our
[08:40] Lord community about a very very keen on
[08:42] that on their history of the game but
[08:44] they generally have a cannon in their
[08:47] head of how the game is shaped I know
[08:50] and what they expect certain things to
[08:53] be but as you say part of our
[08:54] responsibility developing questions is
[08:56] to turn those slightly tricky corners
[08:58] and coming and expected angles how do
[09:01] you think that effects that the law
[09:03] community as a whole on that with oh
[09:05] I've generally found the majority of the
[09:08] law community are very receptive to the
[09:11] things the content we put out the ideas
[09:12] sure they do will have their own
[09:14] theories and headcanon but that's just
[09:16] the fun element of trying to pick apart
[09:18] law they're not expecting necessarily
[09:20] that these things should come to pass
[09:22] okay I yeah I think the best thing to do
[09:25] is to you need to be true to the
[09:28] existing law so you follow the existing
[09:31] law but you the idea is you add in more
[09:33] when you tweak things more so rather
[09:35] than the frustration of going well this
[09:38] isn't this isn't fit they insert the
[09:40] goal is to give the law empty more
[09:42] questions to ask more things to go wait
[09:44] wait wait wait wait and to pick apart as
[09:46] more stuff and try and see how that fits
[09:49] with their idea of everything while soon
[09:51] we define their headcanons well I mean
[09:53] essentially the bits where they've got
[09:55] the head can are mostly built around the
[09:57] holes that have appeared in the law
[09:58] either because of loose ends or because
[10:01] you know we just haven't answered a
[10:03] question yet right so when we do these
[10:05] things and we answer a question and it's
[10:06] in a way that they are not expecting it
[10:09] fills in the hole and some people you
[10:11] know they're not anti they might not be
[10:13] happy with the way that we filled in
[10:15] that hole but it's it works I mean it's
[10:18] kind of like again going back to dis
[10:19] honor amongst thieves you know the sort
[10:21] of like UV cutscene way see zamorak blow
[10:24] up the world of us everyone had in their
[10:26] head can now we just supplied turned up
[10:28] and just blew it all up and then we
[10:29] filled in that detail yeah and and now
[10:32] people can kind of build up their head
[10:33] cam around various other things that
[10:35] were built it were this dislike in that
[10:39] cutscene ok I can't see that cuz he
[10:41] opened a lot more narrative potential
[10:42] than it closed at me
[10:43] is it asked some really interesting
[10:45] questions about what was what was
[10:47] actually going on yeah things were
[10:48] mentions of like alliances and yeah
[10:51] other things were also mentioned during
[10:53] that cutscene that we can maybe expand
[10:55] on later I think there was an
[10:57] interesting perspective shift in in the
[11:00] playerbase probably about three or four
[11:02] years ago maybe where before that point
[11:05] everything was just taken as fact
[11:08] everything that every NPC said was true
[11:11] I'm not trying to put words in the
[11:13] mouths of the community here yeah it's
[11:15] like it seems that we started to take a
[11:17] different approach to characterization
[11:20] where we were aiming to fresh our
[11:22] characters more make them more balanced
[11:24] especially noticeable with the gods and
[11:26] that I think players are shifted their
[11:30] understanding now that there is truth
[11:32] between what characters same what events
[11:35] are seen yeah it's not always so black
[11:37] and white with the narrator's are not
[11:39] always entirely reliable exactly yeah
[11:42] which is in itself a TV tray yes that's
[11:45] why we've got the idea why did quest
[11:48] take so long because obviously they're
[11:51] big pieces of content but quest quest do
[11:55] take a long time to develop why do they
[11:57] think so because they're big it's
[12:02] actually it's of like right the way back
[12:04] when I started everyone seemed to
[12:05] because there was an update every week
[12:06] or other week that everything that we
[12:08] made from a small quest to a full skill
[12:11] took exactly one week now they've kind
[12:14] of got over that they go I've like quite
[12:16] quickly but it's still the case that you
[12:19] know its larger pieces of content take
[12:21] longer to develop there's a lot of
[12:23] people involved there's a lot back and
[12:24] forth as a team of sort of 6 to 10 ppl
[12:28] minimum working on it over a protracted
[12:31] period of time and there are lots of
[12:32] little bits of time of other people as
[12:34] well around yeah all that mr. ation and
[12:37] and feedback means that we're reviewing
[12:40] and revising that that protocol all the
[12:42] way of through its develoment we're
[12:43] trying to make something polished and
[12:45] beautiful that we're proud of and what
[12:47] won't really declares and default that
[12:49] really enjoy I mean with this
[12:52] forreal probably wrote it about three
[12:53] times by the time but actually release
[12:55] that and I feel like
[12:56] better for going through the kind of
[12:58] evolution it takes time to build that
[12:59] Randy certainly in recent years the
[13:03] production quality of quests has ramped
[13:05] up I mean obviously there's going to be
[13:08] some subjective you know to that but
[13:12] objectively speaking the our assets are
[13:16] a lot more advanced than they were used
[13:17] to be the design that we try to
[13:19] implement is typically what we aim for
[13:22] at least to be a bit more refined and to
[13:24] not just retread old ground so it's
[13:26] finding those gaps yeah but also as well
[13:28] a lot of the early stories were setting
[13:31] up ideas promises things like alien
[13:35] planets and the return of gods and these
[13:38] things you really want to do them
[13:40] justice to deliver on that that early
[13:42] promise from the original content so you
[13:45] kind of have to step up your game and
[13:47] you have to put more time and more and
[13:50] more fo I suppose into creating these
[13:52] things because you can't just do a
[13:54] really quick quest and throw out with
[13:56] reused assets and have now the arrival
[13:59] of a new God or a new character or
[14:01] something like that yeah okay so what
[14:05] have you dropped out from the questio
[14:07] bill that you wish you'd been able to
[14:08] include that actually raises a point
[14:11] about development that there is a stage
[14:12] between the quest is finished and
[14:13] releasing it which is weeping over all
[14:16] the stuff yeah you just didn't have time
[14:20] yeah and again it kind of comes in right
[14:22] the very beginning where you know you
[14:24] might want the quest to go into certain
[14:25] way but between the asset viewer can I
[14:28] have available or law or just just as an
[14:32] example there was in bacon quest you
[14:34] were originally going to actively have
[14:36] to beat up the pickpocket yourself but
[14:41] we ended up dropping that but as a
[14:43] result I was able to sneak more horrible
[14:45] references into the brief this IRISA
[14:47] knows i don't know i think it might be
[14:50] like Disney animators are so like I said
[14:52] that they have a similar system where if
[14:54] they were told oh that's too much you
[14:55] can't do that they would put something
[14:56] worse in and try and get away with it or
[14:58] the very big be put back to the first
[15:00] version and we kind of get that with
[15:02] them so some dialogue things that
[15:04] happened
[15:05] and the rest of it but it also does come
[15:08] down to what you've just got time for
[15:10] yeah we work to a straight schedule and
[15:13] I get players ask me sort of why why
[15:16] didn't the quest do this in it while I
[15:18] wasn't more time spent on that and so on
[15:19] and the answers will be we can't done
[15:22] when it's done we we work to a weekly
[15:24] schedule ya think you need to come out
[15:26] and so they we just we have to drop
[15:30] things if you spend forever on one quest
[15:32] you'd never make a second quest and any
[15:34] of us could easily spend a year or two
[15:37] years more time working on one quest and
[15:40] that would mean no quests would ever
[15:42] come out yeah yeah if as to our own
[15:44] devices to do whatever we wanted there's
[15:46] also think of the elements that you drop
[15:48] or often the bits that have taken the
[15:49] most time to do so for example doing one
[15:51] of a kind that there's a better way you
[15:53] fly on the back of the Dragon and in the
[15:56] original design you had a host of combat
[15:58] sequence where you're launching
[15:59] fireballs trying to attack and I spend a
[16:01] great deal of time working on this but
[16:03] it just due to technical limitations and
[16:06] the amount of time that we had left just
[16:09] wasn't feasible and so I removed all
[16:11] that I was able to add in a chunk more
[16:13] law and stuff instead because I wasn't
[16:15] spending all the time when there's one
[16:16] little bit it was that's the purpose of
[16:18] prototype exercise you can quickly not
[16:21] together this credit proof-of-concept
[16:22] seawall this actually work and then you
[16:24] can make take that call do i abase
[16:26] multiple time into they can get fully
[16:28] fleshed out and releasable or its out
[16:29] okay we're gonna cut our losses now it's
[16:32] agonizingly painful to cut out whether i
[16:33] like no but i can do i can especially
[16:36] when you spent so much time but yeah but
[16:38] you just have to make that call
[16:40] sometimes it's not always just in case
[16:43] of I can do is like can I do it sure but
[16:46] can all of the other guys do it can
[16:48] queue a half the times tia is it going
[16:50] to just fall apart right ooh rush it and
[16:52] cram it in and is it actually fun yeah
[16:55] yeah that's so that's a lot of fun in
[16:58] runescape what are you doing yeah we
[17:01] took a wrong with it it is true though
[17:03] that no idea is ever forgotten we do
[17:07] keep banks of ideas like individually
[17:11] just working on a new project you've had
[17:14] that previous idea now maybe we've got
[17:16] the tools and the capability to do an ID
[17:19] it didn't work before here or you know
[17:21] you can just roll these ideas further
[17:23] into other content potentially or give
[17:26] them to other developers and event
[17:28] shadows are some of the stuff that drop
[17:29] drop from failure the gold Scott got
[17:31] wreath or as a minigame of thing yeah
[17:33] well there's something that's still
[17:35] hopefully going to be made one day my
[17:37] fabulous no it's done I made I probably
[17:40] elaborate um it's kind of exposing a
[17:44] hole in the quest though the most boats
[17:45] layer thing came up oh right now yeah
[17:48] that was the idea of going back to
[17:50] apprentice k yeah we had the Nile Slayer
[17:52] tasks and the most power as well and the
[17:55] elder divination expansions and the
[17:58] ancient combat a lot came from that yeah
[18:00] yeah but I'm originally imagined as part
[18:02] of the quest but this wasn't yeah I was
[18:04] being overly ambitious with my time yeah
[18:06] I'm rolling out into future projects
[18:08] they so that was great but there was
[18:10] also still a section between the night
[18:14] Hill pier and the peak of the mountain
[18:16] where you're actually climb the mountain
[18:18] okay and we had a nice white box full of
[18:21] roddick's products our NPC that I think
[18:24] it was a model a board started off this
[18:27] idea that we just kind of map him down
[18:30] everywhere run test our height mapping
[18:32] to make sure that you know he was
[18:34] actually go well and you're not just
[18:36] running through environment yes like
[18:37] that then it there is a white box of
[18:40] that volcano somewhere in Game winding
[18:42] up it's not something we've done before
[18:44] and it's something I think I'd like to
[18:45] do in future right so I mean certainly
[18:48] you know that's an idea that I would
[18:50] plan to take forward at some point have
[18:52] you played each other's quests now I
[18:54] know modern bond earliest said he's
[18:56] played a pretty these quests here but
[18:58] have you all played each other's quits
[19:00] well I have a quest cape so you update
[19:01] everything at the other got all of us do
[19:03] I don't eyes going on my tube account
[19:05] I'm super cannon is rubbish by hammer
[19:07] played most requests in the the text of
[19:10] women or my j-mart work in cheating test
[19:12] apps and stuff which makes me a terrible
[19:14] human being against what oh yeah I'm
[19:18] nothing I played a bunch of quest again
[19:20] don't have a quest caper like kind of
[19:22] other said previously just I've been
[19:25] going through them but I've played you
[19:27] know the penguin ones who played a bunch
[19:30] of P where
[19:31] you won so I've played a good chunk of
[19:33] them it's something that's just
[19:33] interesting to see how the quest has
[19:35] evolved in their final stage so you'll
[19:37] play the version the cut those chrome
[19:39] goes up steam feedback yeah and play
[19:40] when when it goes love and just see how
[19:42] much it's evolved through through them
[19:43] all the giving that the feedback in
[19:45] general terms of how much of their
[19:46] feedback you ignored so that'll be my
[19:48] main I better change that I don't know
[19:52] it might happen i have sat down to
[19:54] answer a bunch of queries on the forums
[19:56] about quest and realize that they're
[19:59] talking about something different to the
[20:00] way through i did make many weeks before
[20:03] wait a minute oh it has this work now
[20:06] and realize it being completely changed
[20:08] from from the play through the I be
[20:09] involved in yeah and I'm gonna go to QA
[20:11] testing then some sometimes even the
[20:13] design will change that that state there
[20:14] to do them up might be some fundamental
[20:16] problem with how / woods was developed
[20:17] the week we had to make alterations and
[20:19] it's constantly evolving through the
[20:21] entire process as you raise a good point
[20:24] how does other content that comes in
[20:26] effect your development of the quest it
[20:28] can be complex no freeze for example dis
[20:31] honor among thieves wasn't development
[20:32] while dementia of disaster was he and we
[20:35] both have zimmer equal in it so we
[20:36] needed to develop zimmer equal in in one
[20:40] stream and one repository of data that
[20:43] were building the question and then
[20:45] migrated to a different stream and share
[20:48] our date a bit between us but you also
[20:50] get the positives of that too with save
[20:53] over tiny major app with tiny thing
[20:55] Aziel if we're both working on measure
[20:57] and content we can't let Paul wears all
[20:59] cease to do things like this to you okay
[21:02] and our final question for you what
[21:05] quests would you most like to add if you
[21:08] can have free rein to add a quest what
[21:10] would it be at the moment I have been
[21:12] planning the next step in these zombie
[21:15] pirate quest things is like 2008 so like
[21:20] I went over on to sell the dawn so we
[21:22] got there sort of like there was the
[21:23] clockwork syringe added but I've had the
[21:25] next one so if I planning a floating
[21:27] around I've been pitching it repeatedly
[21:30] but it's never it's never quite made it
[21:32] never quite got to the neck top of the
[21:34] year well it was it well the next pirate
[21:37] quest was in the poll but it lost to the
[21:39] zemerik quest right so we don't know so
[21:43] like if it goes back
[21:44] Paul may be a twin with other okay there
[21:48] are so many continuation quests that
[21:49] want to come out I mean there's the
[21:51] Pirates obviously more penguins the next
[21:54] elemental workshop from a personal
[21:56] standpoint I'd love to finally do the
[21:58] sequel to different super reverb sleep
[21:59] at the quiz have been waiting for a lot
[22:01] longer than I have you know they should
[22:02] get the doneness on first yo I'm gonna
[22:05] cheat and kind of echo stews interment
[22:08] there is that I just love to see the all
[22:10] of the fifth age Quest series concluded
[22:12] right okay we've made some small steps
[22:15] towards is some have now concluded but
[22:17] we still have a bunch of series that it
[22:20] would be nice to at least iterate on it
[22:23] don't complete okay you know I'm gonna
[22:26] say don't turn the floor now has already
[22:30] happened let's earn return except irda
[22:32] farmall don't need to lure lab all the
[22:36] way down yeah well Raven is the obvious
[22:40] one for me but actually one of the ones
[22:42] I'd really like to do is a storyline
[22:45] continuation kind of a part of staying
[22:47] with the after-effects of what re ended
[22:51] and I really want to play with the kind
[22:54] of psychological implication to you know
[22:56] she killed a friend and I'd really
[22:59] really like to do something that most
[23:00] because I don't have everything dark and
[23:02] twisted and I think you'll be great you
[23:04] know well thank you everybody for coming
[23:09] in hopefully that's given some of our
[23:12] players are greater insight into quest
[23:14] and i believe i'll be seeing some of you
[23:16] next week to talk about the 200th quest
[23:18] yes on the so yeah brilliant thanks very
[23:20] much and bye I