Talk:Summoning training

Untitled

Sorry about leaving the guide with only the expensive training part complete. Thanks for adding the Medium and cheap sections. Sorry about the bad scripting as well, I haven't used Wikiscript before. --Dan2384 17:48, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it is cheaper to use pak yaks from 96-99. Also please mention rock lobsters as a method for aquring crimsons fast and effectively, but at a large cost.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.253.12.31 (talk) on 06:18, 9 April 2009.

Going to add those now. This article is VERY incomplete anyways. dictature 18:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: Actually Pack yaks are more expensive, see the difference between my edits (20:28, 11 April 2009 and 20:47, 11 April 2009). dictature 18:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The calculations dont factor in any shard swapping. This makes Yaks cheaper. This whole article is a load of rubbish. It is outdated and gives bad advice. As a high level summoner (96) I feel obliged to rewrite the whole thing. -- Mercifull ^(Talk) 07:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The cheap method for 20-40 isn't exactly cheap...It's slow, but not cheap. Simple mental math shows me that it's around 800k more expensive than getting from 20-49 using the "Expensive (fast)" method. And it's slower than the "expensive (fast) method as well. 96.253.84.208 22:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Minimising Shards

Somehow, this seems cheaper than the Cheap section. --Iiii I I I 12:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. --Iiii I I I 13:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Wallasalaki claim real?

In this guide it says that using a cannon you can break even on cash, get 100-150k ranged exp an hour, and net 80 or so blue charms. Frankly, I doubt that. Most people don't even know what a wallasalki is. I seriously doubt that, and if anyone could check it out, itd be most appreciated. Swordfishguy 04:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I would also be interested in knowing if this is correct. To3cutt3r 02:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I went to test this out, and I've killed quite a few Wallasalaki so far, and I just don't see how anyone could break even on them using a cannon. They do drop a decent # of charms, but unless someone cares to refute it, I'll eventually remove the cannon profitability phrase. To3cutt3r 06:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Closest Obelisk to Bank?

Just wondering, because I need to get to level 10 summoning, have all the materials, and now I cna't find an Obelisk anywhere near a bank to make pouches. Please Help me! Killerbreadbug72 ^{Level 99} 01:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There aren't any obelisks super close to a bank. At your level the best bet is to run between Falador bank and Taverly obelisk (using the wall shortcut if you can). The fastest way is to use a Spirit kyatt and a Ring of duelling between Castlewars bank and the Piscatoris obelisk, but requires level 57 summoning.  Gaz Lloyd _7:^]^Events!_99s 09:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

If you can get into the warrior's guild there is a bank in there which is closer to the Taverly obelisk than Falador.(98.28.48.168 17:08, June 17, 2011 (UTC))

You can consider the obelisk at Menaphos too, which is decently close to a bank.Nayfaan (talk) 18:58, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Massive Changes

Yup, I made a whole bunch of changes to this page.

Basically what I did is this:

• Removed tables that made no sense (the "expensive" ways to earn experience were cheaper than the "cheap" ways, and the costs listed didn't match anything in reality)
• Moved stuff out of this page and into "Summoning" that wasn't related to just training (e.g. how to find charms is not just for people interested in doing training)Cscooper 22:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

How were the expensive ways cheaper than the cheap ways, and why weren't the costs correct? (wszx) 23:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

So many ways the previous tables were wrong ... here's an obvious one.

In the "Cheap (Slow)" table it recommended to create Spirit Mosquito Pouches from levels 20 to 40 at a cost of 2 million coins; in the "Expensive (Fast)" table for those same levels it recommended Spirit Scorpion and Vampire Bat, at a cost of something like 1 million coins. At first I thought, maybe they just mixed up the titles of the tables, but since the actual cost of getting from level 20 to 40 can easily be kept to under 50,000 coins, for sure Spirit Mosquito is a terrible recommendation (it's one of the most expensive pouches out there). Vampire Bat (level 31) is another strange recommendation; compared to Giant Chinchompa (level 29), it's twice as expensive and earns half the experience.

I think the basic problem is the the previous tables really had nothing to do with recommending pouches for summoning training - what they were actually intended to do, was to show how to achieve summoning experience by using only one type of charm - the first table contains only crimson charms, the second table only blue charms, and the third table only gold charms. If this seems useful, we can certainly put the tables back, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to train using only blue charms. Cscooper 12:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine why anyone would want to train using only blue charms. – Maybe you should take another look at your chart. Of the forty-nine pouches you list, thirty-seven are blue charms. 22 to 99 is completely blue charms on all charts. I also note that after 22, your charts are all practically the same.

Perhaps the reason the charts only contained one type of charm is that crimson charms are the fastest way to train. Obtaining blue charms on any sort of scale is considerably slower than crimson charms. Although blue charms give considerably more xp, they are more than considerably slower to obtain. Green and gold charms are obtainable faster than even crimson, but they give much lower xp. Therefore, it makes sense that the fastest way to train is with crimson charms. Blue gives much more xp per charm than green and gold, so blue charms could be the second-fastest way to train.

As for your specific example of the spirit mosquito, that's a valid point. But everything after that on the cheap section seemed to make sense. It's slow because it uses gold charms, and it's cheap because all the tertiaries are freely or cheaply obtainable. (wszx) 20:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The second item in the "cheap" section was the Bull Ant - one of the most expensive pouches you can make (in terms of gold/XP), and about 1/6 (!) as much experience per pouch as the Bronze Minotaur and Iron Minotaur, both available in the same range of levels.

The third item in the "cheap" section was the Spirit Terrorbird - not bad on price (only 0.2 coins/XP) but terrible experience, only 68.4 per pouch, at that same summoning level you could be making things like the Iron Minotaur, a little more expensive at 3.5 coins/XP, but 404.8 XP/pouch, that's almost 6X more experience than the Spirit Terrorbird.

The fourth item in the "cheap" section was the Barker Toad. Not a bad price, 5.2 coins/XP, but terrible experience, only 87 per pouch where you could be getting 580.8 per pouch with the Mithril Minotaur (almost 7X better experience).

There are similar issues with the items in the "expensive" list too - the Vampire Bat is kind of expensive at 12.2 coins/XP, and pretty bad at experience, 136 XP per pouch. At that same summoning level you could be making Giant Chinchompa, only 4.9 coins/XP, and 225.2 XP per pouch. The only reason I can think of for making Vampire Bat instead of Giant Chinchompa is if you have vampire dust or crimson charms already in your inventory, but I'm figuring those people aren't looking in this table - they should look in the Summoning pouches article to see what they can make out of what they already have. Cscooper 21:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you completely missed the "slow" part of the last list. They use gold charms, and they are therefore slow. The tertiaries are obtainable at low or no cost, hence the cheap. So everything you just said is wrong. Using minotaurs and chinchompas is very slow because of the blue charms. I think you are completely ignoring the issue of obtaining charms. (wszx) 07:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

So the original tables were just horribly mis-named? They really had nothing to do with expense, but really were specific to which types of charms were more easily available? That definitely makes some sense. But I would still think it makes no sense to limit yourself to blue charms (for example) – if you are capable of killing monsters that drop blue charms, you are capable of killing monsters that drop gold charms (right?) so what we want is a table of gold-charm-only pouches, then a table of gold-and-green-charm-pouches, etc.? Gold charms are the easiest to obtain, do you think green are the second easiest? Blue the third easiest, crimson the hardest? Cscooper 02:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

No, we don't want those tables. We want tables that take into consideration time to gather charms, time to actually make pouches, and costs of tertiaries. I am not saying the previous tables were perfect, just that they were better than yours. (wszx) 03:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

←Then instead of just saying my tables are bad, help me understand things so I can make them better, eh? I'm updating the tables on the "Summoning" page under "Monsters to kill for charms" to include information on each monster's combat level, and frequency of drop of the desired charm. Based on just those two factors, it appears that green charms are not that much harder to acquire than gold charms. Am I wrong about that? Cscooper 13:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In my experience green charms are easier to get WRT to gold charms than crimson are WRT to green.

I think it may make sense for this article to focus on training theory, instead of listing out specific pouches to make. For instance, discussing that while blue charms give handily the most XP per charm, they are very difficult to obtain in large numbers, and so crimson may be the fastest. Or whether it makes more monetary sense to sell, alch or exchange pouches. And this page would provide number-crunching charts, rather that lists of recommended pouches. What do you think? (wszx) 07:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm ... let me start with my philosophy of the difference between the "training" page and the main "summoning" page.

People come to these pages because they have questions. These pages are here to provide answers.

The "training" page is there to answer one exact question - "I am a player at summoning level X and I wish to get to level X+1. How should I do that?"

The "summoning" page is there for a whole flock of questions - "What is summoning?" "Why did my summoning points go?" "What familiar can help me perform task X?" "Why did my familiar disappear when I entered the Grand Exchange?" "What do I need to create so that I can summon familiar Y?" etc. etc. etc.

Maybe in general it's this - the "training" page is for players at level X focused on getting to level X+1; the "summoning" page is for players who are focused on using the abilities they have at their current level, and if they eventually get to the next level that's fine too, but it's not their focus.

So I think that selling vs. alching vs. exchanging pouches sounds like a good discussion, but not one that's limited to training. Clearly it can affect training in that it affects how much money you have to do more training, but it also affects just general running around and doing whatever, so I'm leaning towards putting that on the main Summoning page.

For charms, the basic process of acquiring charms is not specific to getting from level X to level X+1, so what's on the "summoning" page about charms now looks good to me. The additional information you have about gold vs. blue vs. crimson maybe needs to be on both pages, a brief discussion of the differences between the charms on the "summoning" page, and then specifically how it relates to training on the "training" page.

I'm not sure what you mean by "number-crunching charts". What would these charts display? My concern, without really understanding what you mean, is that these charts would be so long (since there are so many pouches) that it would be difficult for a player to extract the desired information. There may be 50 pouches that a player at level X could create, they don't want to know about all 50, just the one that makes sense for them to get from level X to X+1.

And yes, the pouch that is "best" for a particular player depends on factors beyond just their summoning level - most importantly, their combat and slayer levels (which control how easy it is for them to acquire various charms). I didn't understand how important that was, thank you for pointing it out to me, and I definitely agree that information needs to be included on this page. Somehow.

Cscooper 12:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

My problem right now is that currently the page makes recommendations I strongly disagree with. I don't think recommending almost entirely that players use blue charm pouches is good, because I think training primarily with crimson is much better. I'm not sure what the wiki's policy is about disagreements on what we recommend in training guides, so I don't know where we go from here. (wszx) 03:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Did you see the "Gold Charms Only" table I'm adding? I think the solution is to explain under what circumstances each table is accurate. For example, the table I had started on ("By Cost") is completely correct for players who have no problems getting any type of charm. I have a process I go through to come up with those recommendations, it's not gut feel or "stuff I like", it's actually me going through the Summoning pouches chart and picking pouches that (1) increase XP over the previous pouch in the table, and (2) fit the cost restrictions. I'm perfectly happy changing the title or the explanatory text so that visitors to the page understand that. Or maybe we want to rearrange the order so that the "Gold Charms Only" table comes first, since it's more likely to be applicable to lower-level players.

I'm working on "Gold Charms Only", if you feel a "Crimson Charms Only" table would also be helpful, let's add one. But do people really want to train with only Crimson? Or are you thinking about players whose levels in combat & slaying make it difficult for them to acquire Blue & Green charms, so what we would really want is a "Gold + Crimson Charms Only" table? That is to say, are there a significant number of players who specifically don't want to use any gold charms?

Let me know what recommendations you disagree with, keeping in mind that the "By Cost" table specifically ignores the type of charm. I'll be glad to discuss individual recommendations in the table, and why they are there. But what I keep hearing from you, is issues with which charms to use - and I think the solution there is not to throw away the "By Cost" table, but to (1) make it clear to visitors that the "By Cost" table uses all types of charms, and (2) add tables that do take into account charm types.

Are you thinking that even if a player can acquire Blue Charms (for example), and even if a pouch is available at their summoning level that makes sense, they may not want to use that pouch for leveling, due to the difficult in acquiring Blue Charms?

Notice I've renamed "By Cost" to "All Charms" and moved it after "Gold Charms Only".

Cscooper 13:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be nice to have separate tables for each charm type, with columns for level, name, profit (with sale on GE), xp, profit/xp, and tertiary, and make all columns sortable. That would allow the individual player to make decisions based upon whatever charms they have. To3cutt3r 20:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Too expensive?

Costing 300 mil to train to lvl 99 seems way to much. It seems this guide makes the new pouches every time a new one is available even though the old one is more cost-efficient.--69.104.164.152 22:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The "Gold Charms Only" table has two sections - "Expensive/fast" and "Moderate". The "Expensive/fast" section bumps you to the next pouch as soon as one is available that gives better XP. So yes, you're right, it's not as cost-efficient as the "Moderate" section.

Do we need better text to point out the two sections to the table?

Cscooper 12:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Too many expression errors.

Hi. I want to help edit this page but when I click on Edit, I saw some expression errors, so I am always afraid to edit this page and create expression errors. But looks like Firewen edited the page for some simple grammatical errors without knowing, and created expression errors. Can someone tell me which browser to use to edit the page and to not create expression errors? I'm currently using Firefox.

Unrealistic Training methods

I see that under the recommended training methods titans (blue charm familiars) are used heavily in the 80+ levels. i know from experience that getting 4k blue charms is a completely unrealistic goal and will yield considerably more of the other types of charms from almost any monster killed. I think this section should be rewriten --Xtarn ^{• Talk •} 14:16, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I'm a level 115 (combat obviously) that does Slayer quiet heavily, I only have 319 blue charms. I don't see myself having the 12k needed to level up using Rune minotaurs. Dsctatom 02:30, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Non GEable tertiaries?

Whilst it is useful to hide non-tradable tertiaries you must bear in mind they can produce better cost/xp rate and players may have accuried the rrequried items during reglar play or may decide it's worth the killing to get these items. Hence forth I think this infomation should be added Chao.Master ^Talk 22:28, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

A more realistic training method...

So, several people have brought up the unrealistic part of this. If we want to have an actual guide, instead of just a bunch of random information that doesn't help people train summoning. (Trust me on this, I have 99, this guide didn't help me at all.) I'm no good at table formatting or anything, but I can list what pouches to make. So if anyone wants to clean up this guide, and needs to know what pouches to make, hit me up on my talk page, and I'll come post them here. --Halo^Talk 14:19, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree. In particular, I'd say that the list of familiars for the 'fast' sections are silly, its just a list of (almost) every familiar you can possibly make. I'm pretty sure anyone who can read at all could figure out that always going on to the next familiar is faster than sticking with the same one...

At the moment, I have no real idea how wiki calculators work, but I'll take a look and see if I can figure it out; it would be a good learning experience. Cheers, Penderwyll 16:51, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

By Cost - Inexpensive

I'm struggling to understand this article. There's just so much data!

But shouldn't Ice titans under Inexpensive be replaced by Barker toads? I suspect I personally might prefer trying to get all those Blue charms, but the column is after all called Inexpensive. --     Zang! ^talk   16:23, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

Total number of charms needed?

I think it would be helpful if there was a general estimate of how many charms of each type it would take to get to 99 following the guide, so people can gather all they need before starting. 66.168.21.63 17:48, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Charms

Any good charm droppers for people whose slayer level ISN'T over 9000? 70.231.238.90 16:41, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Black Demons have about a 45% drop rate for crimsons and only require high defence or protection prayers to kill.

Time for Advanced Statistics?

I have an idea: Creating an overall statistic to value mosters based on charms dropped.

Blue charms are worth more than Crims, Crims more than Green and Green more than Gold (Based on experience)

This is expressed in the charm experience rate graph that is either on this page or the charm page (I forget now). What if somebody weighted the charms according to that graph and created a table displaying which mosters drop the most "experience"? I think this would be a great tool and all the information is out there.

Example: Lets say at level 70 summoning Blues = 3.3 Crims = 2.1 Green = 1.5 and Gold = 1.0

If a monster drops 4% Blues, 8% Crims, 12% Green, and 30% Gold then its rating would be: 78 per 100 (13.2 + 16.8 + 18 + 30)

If another monster drops 8% Blue, 18% Crim, 4% Green and 14% Gold then its rating would be: 84.2 per 100 (26.4 + 37.8 + 6 + 14)

This would make monster B more worthwile to kill to train summoning at level 70 summoning.

I wish I had the know how to pursue this but I don't :/ I'm not even sure if this is how I am supposed to make post... So if somebody wants to pursue this just let me know and I can help with the statistics side of things.Roomescape1 22:03, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Total Column

I think adding a total column to the bottom of the suggested charm use table would be a good idea. However i dont no how to do this so if someone would be kind enought to do it for me thank you

Rock lobs inventory

I got 99 summoning there and last thing I wanted was an aggressive familiar attacking lobsters then lobsters attacking it back and thus messing the lure. I definitely wouldn't recommend them. Arkman20 _{Talk HS} 02:17, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Greater Demons and Glacors

Tormented Demons are listed as a good way for blues, Glacors are probably better (and easier) for blues/crims. Over the course of getting 100 arma shards I got over 1300 blues/1200 crims/a couple hundred greens. that's about 40 or so blues and crims an hour or more.

Also, cannoning greaters in the forinthry dungeon can get you several hundred crimsons an hour, there's 10 in there and if you set your cannon down right in the middle you'll hit all of them. It's expensive in the vein of bursting lobs. You also get a ton of range xp and if you take prayer urns you can get decent prayer xp from the accursed ashes, on top of cleaning up the drops on the ground severely. Even if glacors aren't mentioned on the page (I'd think they should be added to the Tormented Demon section, like "Tormented Demons/Glacors" since they're similar in charm percentages and drop the same amount, I think the cannoning greaters method should definitely be mentioned, it's basically bursting lobs but you get range and prayer xp plus a ton of crimsons instead of magic xp and a ton of crimsons.

Wouldn't the Greater Demons be considerably more dangerous? From what I remember, the Forinthry Dungeon is a wilderness zone with revenants. 98.249.218.100 02:13, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

Cave bugs

I really don't know how cave bugs aren't included as a method of obtaining charms in this guide... They are awesome green charm droppers! I added them to the article. Reply if you don't agree with me.— Ahmed Mamdoh (talk) 10:13, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Pikupstix

Pikupstix will buy most secondary ingredients and you can buy them back; he's just a step away from the Taverley obelisk. Shouldn't he be mentioned for training as well when the ingredient is tradeable? (He essentially unnotes your ingredient, like bananas or granite, for a little fee.) 98.249.218.100 01:46, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

Praying mantis not on list

ive noticed that praying mantis wasnt on the training chart which only requires 75 summoning and uses any colour variation of the flower so i think its a good option due to the flowers being cheap, (seeds being cheaper if you wish to plant) and gives more xp than what you have listed

many thanks

jordan

wow your right i tried this method out just recently and it should be put on the training guide. thanks for the advice and hopefully it gets put in saved me a fair bit of money in the end  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.177.15.222 (talk) on 02:03, August 5, 2013.

How to Make Pouches Needs Fixing Up

The how to make pouches guide is really confusing, it would look better with a chart or something showing fastest to slowest trips. Because right now it look like and spirit kyatt is faster and here are all the alternatives  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.114.160.240 (talk) on 22:14, September 29, 2013.

Out of date page

This page seems to be out date. First, the guide on how to fight the monsters that drop charms seems to be based off the old combat system. I know this because it still states that magic is expensive (which is no where near as true). Second, the summoning update, made just last week, might've put this article out of date.

MR PR1NCE I (talk) 17:07, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

You should update it :ɔ MolMan 17:08, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Lava titans

The guide claims that it will only show pouches for which the tertiary component is tradeable. Yet for 83-89 blue charms, it shows "lava titans", which have the untradeable obsidian charms as tertiary component. I know far too little of both summoning and editting templates to provide an alternative sadly :/. Could anyone take a look into this please?

500gilles (talk) 23:39, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

It was just text, not a template, but I've corrected it. I've added that obsidian charms are not tradeable but are also included in the table as a tertiary ingredient.  Salix ^(Talk)  09:33, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I meant the thing that shows how many charm you will be using, isn't that a template? I probably should take a closer look at the editing guides, but your solution works just fine too, thank you! :) 500gilles (talk) 13:19, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

Nope, it's just a number in the table. No problem. :)  Salix ^(Talk)  13:32, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

Familiarisation

Does it actually give an xp reward or is it mentioned purely because of the charm enhancer? Jampolo 04:44, November 5, 2017 (UTC)

Pouches table unreadable in night mode

As title suggests, the table that has each recommended pouch for each level, is next to unreadable when in night mode. Maybe make the hyperlink text inside the boxes more visible?

205.185.99.96 04:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the note. I've went ahead and applied a fix for the links inside the boxes as suggested. Jr Mime (talk) 01:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Opportunity costs - Harmonic mean

I understand that when evaluating rates, the harmonic mean can be used to combine two rates into an average. It appears this is the case with the Titan vs Minotaur comparison given, where the current rate (approx 170 gp/xp) should not be applied to the whole amount of xp. Given a opportunity differential gp/xp of 170 and a raw gp/xp of 9, the harmonic rate of is roughly 17 gp, which is still alarmingly high but not as insane as the current article suggests.

I might also ask user talk:5512tyuiop if he agrees with this, as he appears to be the original contributor of this section. Techhead7890 (talk) 09:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Grand Exchange Shards

"spirit shards can also be bought at the Grand Exchange. Though the guide price is not always 25, it is rare that anyone will sell it for anything less than that."

The guide price is currently 22. For the past ~week I've had an offer to buy 1 million for 23 each (this was the market price when I put in the offer), a total of ~670k bought for an average of 21.44. The issue isn't that people don't sell them, the issue is that the buy limit is 10k/4h, enough to make ~50 yak pouches.

Robadob (talk) 18:55, 9 February 2021 (UTC)