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This talk page is for discussing the Revolution page.

Untitled[edit source]

What does it mean % ability damage per tick and how is this calculated? Tal Ormanda (talk) 04:27, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ability damage percentage per tick is the average ability damage you'll do per tick (0.6s) using that setup. It's a percentage of your total ability damage (for instance, if your ability damage was 1400 and it said you would do 30% damage per tick, that would mean you do about 420 damage per 0.6 seconds). It was calculated by simulating the ability setups. ʞooɔ 11:07, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
What is the percentage while attacking a foe that is not immune to stun with the immune to stun setup. 01:40, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
I don't know exact numbers, but I feel safe in saying it's slightly lower than the other setup, due to the time spent using a stun ability and the follow-up versus using two regular abilities. Sir Revan125 (talk) 02:43, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Defense basic abilities?[edit source]

Revolution seems to ignore most defense basic abilities, or so it seems... Anyone can confirm that? Gspbeetle (talk) 16:21, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

What are the recommended thresholds and ultimates for the styles, using the optimal setup? 08:09, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

^Bump 04:45, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Optimal Setup for F2P?[edit source]

Just wondering if anyone has figured out an optimal setup for melee (or anything) using only free-to-play abilities 13:45, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Wrack[edit source]

Unless an enemy is stunned, why would I want wrack as my first slot abillity?  I understand the goal is to gain adrenaline quickly, by using wrack after every other ability, but why does this gain more adrenaline than using other abilities?  Currently, I general have my action bar set up (revolution) so that my basic abilities are ordered from highest cooldown to lowest cooldown. 06:15, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

From my observation of the "Main hand and shield" setup, Wrack is first for two main reasons:
  • Being the first ability, if its damage is enough to kill a single target, your more valuable abilities (with longer cooldowns) are saved for when they are truly needed.
  • Being first ensures that when Impact, or another stunning ability is used, Revolution will take full advantage of Wracks 31% damage boost.

Just to note also, Wrack does not gain more adrenaline that other abilities, but because of its low cooldown timer, you will cast near no auto attacks, thus accelerating your overall adrenaline gain. Heaven Sent (talk) 19:47, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Does this even matter with Revolution?  I feel even if Wrack is last in my Revolution list, it will still be using basic abilites just as often, just not Wrack just as often, but if all other abilities are on cooldown, it will then use Wrack.  I don't see how having it at the front instead would mean less auto attacks?  Perhaps this is not what you meant, if not, then I am confused. 08:28, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Does Impact actually count as stun?  What about Kick/Backhand?  For other abilities, when they say they do 100%-250% damage, can the damage be calculated as (100%+250%)/2 = 175% damage? 08:12, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Bash[edit source]

How can Bash be calculated in the Revolution rotation?

I calculated the hits of a 1h Fastest weapon and strength bonus with or without shield. The weapon, skill level and shield will all be of the same tier.

For example: 9.6 * 50 + 2.5 * 50 = 605 + shield (170) = 775

Then, the percent is calculated (775/605 = 128.1%). This is the ability modifier of an ability that has the same hit as Bash. I calculated the average of all between tier 5 and tier 90 (132%). Calculating the variability of hits, the end result would be on average 79.2%.

Tier Shield No shield Ability %
5 91 61 149,7%
6 105 73 144,2%
7 119 85 140,3%
8 133 97 137,4%
9 147 109 135,2%
10 161 121 133,4%
11 176 133 132,0%
12 190 145 130,8%
13 204 157 129,8%
14 218 169 129,0%
15 233 182 128,3%
16 247 194 127,7%
17 262 206 127,2%
18 276 218 126,8%
19 291 230 126,4%
20 305 242 126,1%
21 320 254 125,9%
22 334 266 125,6%
23 349 278 125,5%
24 364 290 125,3%
25 379 303 125,2%
26 394 315 125,1%
27 409 327 125,1%
28 424 339 125,0%
29 439 351 125,0%
30 454 363 125,0%
31 469 375 125,0%
32 484 387 125,1%
33 500 399 125,1%
34 515 411 125,2%
35 531 424 125,3%
36 546 436 125,4%
37 562 448 125,5%
38 578 460 125,7%
39 594 472 125,8%
40 610 484 126,0%
41 626 496 126,1%
42 642 508 126,3%
43 658 520 126,5%
44 674 532 126,7%
45 691 545 126,9%
46 708 557 127,1%
47 724 569 127,3%
48 741 581 127,6%
49 758 593 127,8%
50 775 605 128,1%
51 792 617 128,4%
52 809 629 128,6%
53 827 641 128,9%
54 844 653 129,2%
55 862 666 129,5%
56 880 678 129,8%
57 898 690 130,2%
58 916 702 130,5%
59 934 714 130,8%
60 952 726 131,2%
61 971 738 131,5%
62 990 750 131,9%
63 1008 762 132,3%
64 1027 774 132,7%
65 1046 787 133,0%
66 1066 799 133,4%
67 1085 811 133,8%
68 1105 823 134,2%
69 1124 835 134,7%
70 1144 847 135,1%
71 1164 859 135,5%
72 1184 871 136,0%
73 1205 883 136,4%
74 1225 895 136,9%
75 1246 908 137,3%
76 1267 920 137,8%
77 1288 932 138,3%
78 1310 944 138,8%
79 1331 956 139,3%
80 1353 968 139,8%
81 1375 980 140,3%
82 1397 992 140,8%
83 1419 1004 141,3%
84 1441 1016 141,8%
85 1464 1029 142,4%
86 1487 1041 142,9%
87 1510 1053 143,5%
88 1533 1065 144,0%
89 1557 1077 144,6%
90 1581 1089 145,1%
Average: 132,0%

ColossusRS (talk) 15:04, January 4, 2015 (UTC)

Legacy vs. Revolution[edit source]

The discussion seems to be getting out of hand so let's stop revisioning the revisioning and first discuss the topic on a mature way.

As it seems now, the reference added is valid. Just for the sake of the argument I'll repost it here again:

"Legacy DPS should not be better than someone actively using revolution, and from our testing and data there are very few cases where Legacy is better.

That said, if you're testing using Revolution with a mediocre rotation and not using thresholds and ultimate abilities, then yes Legacy may be equal or slightly higher than that. Use Revolution competently and you'll definitely get higher damage output in almost all cases.

I think we're going to be in an adjustment period where players will need to tweak their ability rotations following the ability rebalance, and will see they can retain their DPS (whilst having more tactical ability options)."

What I understand from it:

1. Legacy is balanced according to "lazy" Revolution (I mean someone who adds no extra input). This means that obviously someone who uses thresholds and ultimates (like wise also specs) will have a higher DPS. I believe the philosophy behind it is "effort vs. reward", the more input, the higher the DPS.

2. Legacy is balanced with a mediocre rotation in mind. This means that the most optimal rotation in this wiki will be better than Legacy. I do not know what Jagex means with mediocre though, it could be anything. Maybe it is the standard rotation? Anyway, stating that Revolution would be 10% better (or was it 15% I don't know check the article) would be an opionated perspective as that is now what Jagex intended.

I think the last thing is an important nuance, as players may wrongfully believe that the rotation described is what Jagex means as balance. What everyone feels about what is balanced or not is a discussion that should have no place in the wiki article (we have forums or this talk page for that). I think we should stick what Jagex describes as balanced and let everyone decide whenever they agree with that. Maybe we should just add that players do not agree with Jagex' definition of balance and that's it.

ColossusRS (talk) 18:56, January 15, 2015 (UTC)

1. No, Revolution being around 10% or more better than Legacy on most dps rotations is not an opinion, it's a fact. Stating Jagex Legacy to be balanced against a mediocre rotation however when they've only stated 'lazy revolution' on the other hand, is highly opinionated. 'Lazy revolution' can mean anything for example optimal basics rotation with no interaction (this is lazy) or a mediocre rotation but using thresholds or ultimates sometimes (also lazy).Gabbaisamoron (talk) 12:49, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
As for Legacy being 26% dps per tick, we both know this is a fact so there's no need to asininely beat around the bush. Legacy autoattacks are 2.07 times stronger than regular autoattacks, or 207% autoattack damage. For fastest speed weapons, this is 103.5% ability damage on average per 4 ticks, or 25.875% ability damage per tick, which can be rounded up to 26%. Gabbaisamoron (talk) 12:59, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
1. What did you take as reference point? There are 9 different rotations (12 if you include the instanced ones). The most valid way would be taking the average of all rotations and compare that to Legacy. Just taking the non-instanced, the average DPS of Revolution is 27.94%. So on average, Revolution is 7.4% higher than Legacy.
The mediocre rotation is not an opinion, but a JMod quote. I refer to the source above. So if the most optimal rotations are only 7% higher, then the mediocre should definitely be balanced.
The term "lazy" itself is something Jagex doesn't use but is player-made which indeed varies. I suggest we adjust the definition according to Jagex': mediocre with no thresholds/ultimates.
2. The 26% is correct for Fastest weapons, I calculate it slightly different though. I normally use 1% as the hypothetical minimum hit of Legacy, as 0 is technically not hit but a miss. So (1% + 207%)/2 = 108%/4 = 26%. For Fast however, this is buffed to (1% + 207% * 1225/960)/2 = 132.6%/5 = 26.51%. The factor is the reverse of the ability damage factors, because ability damage =/= auto-attack damage. For Average, similar calculation, other factor (149/96) and you get 26.86%. Quite a difference.
So when putting these two together, Revolution is maximum 7% higher and minimal 4% higher. That is way below your "fact" of 10% and still acceptable seeing it is most optimal, not mediocre.
You can always argue about Jagex' definitions, but then we wouldn't be neutral anymore. According to Jagex, Legacy is only 4%-7% inferior to the average of the most optimal Revolution rotations, and certainly balanced or maybe superior to the mediocre rotations (what those may be). It is up to the readers to agree or disagree with that.

ColossusRS (talk) 22:49, February 6, 2015 (UTC)

It is an opinion or your own interpretation because Mod Pips simply did not define what exactly 'lazy revolution' means. 

The most 'valid way' would certainly NOT be the 'average of all rotations'. 1 handed+shield rotations are barely even relevant because those builds are utterly useless in Legacy due to the lack of shield abilities, are utterly shite for dps and are only used in the EoC for tanking purposes. The most 'valid way' would simply be compare the maximum dps rotation (out of 2h and dw) for each combat triangle style between both systems since we are comparing optimal dps here. So for example for melee it would be 30.81% vs 26%, range 28.99% vs 26% and so on.

I have no idea where 1225/960 came from, but yes fast and average weapons do have slightly higher autoattack damage than simply scaling attack speed ratio. However, this is countered by the fact that a large portion of damage from potions (+8 per boosted level) is simply added to your damage and not scaled with attack speed. Therefore faster weapons benefit more from potions than slower weapons and the slightly higher autoatttack damage slower weapons have is probably to compensate for this fact. In the EoC attack speed is generally faster, basics at 3 ticks speed and threshold and bleeds at 2 ticks speed so potions benefit EoC or Revolution even more in general.

Legacy's minimum hit is also not 1%, it's simply '1' which is much lower than 1% and much closer to 0% of your max hit as soon as your max hit grows beyond about 300.

Revolution with no input being 10%+ superior is pretty accurate. Hell, melee is even about 18% superior. Even if Legacy was 26.86%, the maximum difference is still (30.81%-26.86%)/26.86=14.8% superior so I have no idea how you concluded 'maximum is 7% higher'. For range and mage the gap is smaller but it's still about 8% when we compare the best dps builds while using the 26.86% figure for Legacy, and Revolution has the luxury of you know, not having to spend any ammo or runes. Gabbaisamoron (talk) 00:24, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Mod Pips didn't even say the word "lazy", as I stated this is a player-invented word that covers a lot meanings. Either we stop using that word and keep stating "Revolution with a mediocre rotation and no thresholds or ultimates" (god things would get lengthy) or we coin that long description as a good definition of "lazy". Then everybody knows what lazy means.

We're not strictly talking about DPS-centred combat here, we're trying to asses a global picture that should include mainhand+shield. I also disagree that we simply should only check the maximum rotation. DW, 2h and shield are all equivalents, there is no objective reason why we should only compare the one with the highest DPS. We should not exclude any rotation from the equation.

For the factors check the ability damage article on this wiki. Potions should be excluded, as you shouldn't be obligated to use them. They only further complicate matters.

1% refers to EoC auto-attack damage, not Legacy. An Legacy hit of 1 is 10 in EoC, and 10 is 1% of 1,000. As hits are rounded down, 1% is a correct minimum hit for all weapons with EoC auto-attack damage between 1,000 and 1,999 (which is the majority of weapons). The mistake of going under or above that range is quite small in terms of DPS, too insignificant to not use this convenient minimum hit. When using 0 as minimal hit, your mistake is even greater and it is even technically wrong.

To be exact, Revolution DPS is -10.3% inferior (24.10/26.86) and is, as you stated, +18.7% superior (30.86/26) and everything inbetween. We can give this range, we can give the average I calculated above or hell we could use the median as extra parameter. Coing +10% as a fixed number would give a wrong impression that Revolution is always superior, while reality is a lot more complex.

I think your intention is to mislead people by (1) focussing only on the rotations with the highest DPS, by (2) forgetting the variation of Legacy DPS, by (3) forgetting the variation of DPS among Revolution rotations and by (4) forgetting Jagex didn't intent it to balanced according the most optimal rotation but a mediocre rotation. A wiki article shouldn't convince people, it should inform people from a neutral point of view.

ColossusRS (talk) 12:39, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, Mod Pips said 'use revolution competently' yet he didn't define what 'competent' means. It could mean an optimal rotation without interaction or it could mean an mediocre or even good rotation with some use of thresholds or ultimates. He left how good Legacy is intended to be very ambiguous and the only thing he stated as a fact is 'Legacy DPS should not be better than someone actively using revolution', and I left this on the Revolution page.

For the nth time we're comparing optimal DPS of Revolution vs Legacy when both systems interact minimally with the system so of course we're talking about DPS-centred combat, lmao. In fact, most of combat is entirely DPS centric and Legacy doesn't even have access to the 'non DPS centric' part because Legacy doesn't have access to defensive abilities. Like I've already said. It's literally insane to compare mainhand+shield rotations between EoC and Legacy because no one uses mainhand+shield in Legacy, because it's goddamn useless, like I've already said about 5 times. It's like saying pre-EoC F2P Range was better than melee because a maple shortbow could outdps a Rune mace, which nobody used because everyone knew maces were terrible.

Optimal dps is the only thing that's relevant here because that's what people should aim to use when killing stuff. There's no excuse for deliberately not using the best dps setups if your goal is to maximise dps, which is the goal for 95% of EoC combat and 100% of Legacy combat. Again, comparing subpar setups is analogous to saying things like 'range had better dps than melee pre-EoC because if you used this shit melee weapon range became better'. It doesn't make sense and you're the one who's trying to manipulate figures by comparing subpar setups that people don't even use in Legacy and are totally irrelevant.

For potions, why the hell should we ignore it? There's a huge market for it because potions are must use items if you want to maximise dps and Jagex expects you to use them when killing anything a bit tough that can fight back. Especially for lower levels when you'll be missing a lot on slayer monsters or monsters with good xp rates. You might as well extend this 'logic' to 'why should we use anything'. If you didn't care about efficiency and balance in the first place why the hell are you repeating the same godawful drivel that you wrote on the forums, now on a different site?

My intention is to mislead people? Your hypocrisy is really quite something. I am not the one who literally spend all of his time on the forums making godawful posts about how Legacy needs to become more like EoC, even though there is already a damn EoC for people to play and even a monkey can work out the fact that Legacy's goal was to recreate pre-EoC combat. I am not even the one who did the calculations on this page which clearly shows Revolution dps is superior even when doing absolutely nothing. Hell, I haven't even begun to take into account how much of a dps gulf there really is between Revolution and Legacy. For example, certain ultimates can be used at similar frequency to the rate special attacks are used and yet generate collosally more dps. In terms of utility Revolution allows many combat situations to be completely AFK'able via target seeking abilities like chain and richochet. Revolution also allows on demand healing without food and do not need to expend ammo or runes while attacking. This is all on top of some 8-18% dps disadvantage Legacy already has to deal with compared to AFK revolution, and you've been crying murder on the forums about a 10% buff to Legacy dps to somewhat counterbalance all of this, which all but the most obvious Legacy trolls and haters like yourself agree should be done. Gabbaisamoron (talk) 16:53, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

It is obvious in the context of the sentence that he means using it actively (so with thresholds and ultimates) and with the most optimal rotation. This puts things into perspective: if Legacy is only slightly lower in DPS even when using the most optimal rotation, it is quite certainly balanced according to Jagex' criteria of mediocre rotations. I really do not understand why that is ambigue.

No, we're not talking about the most optimal set-ups. We're talking about Legacy in all its facets. You purposely leave out shields because you know Legacy is clearly superior in that matter, and that would crush the "Legacy is always inferior" statement. The use or non-use of abilities is irrelevant, shields have their own extra defensive capabilities. Not including shields would be a sign of bias and has no place on a wiki.

There are a lot of excuses for not using the most optimal rotations: choice. You can customize your action bar like you want it. That's probably the reason why Jagex uses a mediocre rotation as reference, not the most optimal rotation. It ensures EoCers to have a freedom of choice and will not get punished for it too hard.

Jagex doesn't expect you to use potions when PvMing. They should not balance two modes imagining everyone uses overloads (which only a small percent of the population can use). We're not talking here about achieveing max DPS, but if the two modes are balanced. This should apply to both lvl 3's as lvl 138's, or when using shields, and for all classes.

I'm repeating Mod Pips words: mediocre rotation and no thresholds or ultimates. Of course using the most optimal rotation will yield a higher DPS, as Legacy Mode was not meant to be balanced according to that rotation. Of course using certain ultimates (like Berserk) will boost DPS but Legacy Mode was not meant to be balanced including ultimates. You disagree with those statements, but the question is: should the readers of the wiki agree with you? Should you convince the readers that Legacy Mode is inferior according to your standards?

No, as that is not neutral. Wiki's are not meant to convince other people. It is made to inform. With the quote of Mod Pips, people should be informed about Jagex' stand regarding this matter. The conclusion is simple: yes Legacy is balanced like Jagex intended it. They can decide themselves if they agree or disagree with it. At best we could inform players disagree with it, but then we're moving on thin ice.

To conclude: in the matter of which mode is superior, it can be stated that Legacy Mode is balanced according to Jagex' criteria (mediocre rotation, no thresholds/ultimates), Legacy Mode is +10% superior till -18% inferior when using the most optimal rotations and certainly inferior when using thresholds or ultimates. Some players disagree about Jagex' criteria.

ColossusRS (talk) 17:11, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

An ambiguous statement is not 'obvious' and it's 'obvious' to you because it's your own interpretation and what you want to believe.

I'm not going to repeat shit I've already said because you refuse to think. Every calculation done for Revolution on this page was for the optimal rotations and the optimal dps, and likewise a optimal dps figure for momentum and Legacy were given. I don't know how else to get into your thick skull that this discussion is entirely about optimal dps.

Jagex's rotations are also nowhere near medioce-They've put the strongest abilities on the first few slots of revolution just like the optimal rotations displayed on this page, albeit in slightly different orders. The only real difference is that Jagex seems to prefer normal abilities over bleeds. In any case there is absolutely nothing to stop people from doing the slightest bit of research about what's good to use like finding this page if they cared at all about dps.

Even if the revolution user is somehow using a mediocre rotation, despite Jagex's standard rotations being 'very good' and the optimal ones on this page being freely available, they can still enjoy a myriad of other benefits Legacy users don't have, such as free healing, no need to spend ammos or runes or being able to get much more dps by occasionally using certain ultimate abilities instead of the special attacks Legacy uses.

'Legacy is clearly superior in that matter' my god. Is your understanding of the game genuinely that poor? The only reason you use a shield build is for the defensive abilities in tanking situations, which Legacy doesn't have access to which is why nobody ever uses shields in Legacy. So I'm not sure what sort of Martian logic you're using to deduce Legacy is somehow better for mainhand+shield builds.

'Wiki's are not meant to convince other people. It is made to inform'. That's rich, considering it's you who started adding all this opionated shit and me who's trying to edit them out. Gabbaisamoron (talk) 17:41, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

I really cannot see what other interpretation there could be. Mod Pips clearly stated the conditions which makes Legacy equal or slightly higher than Revolution: mediocre rotation and no thresholds/ultimates. Using Revolution competently thus means using the most optimal rotation and thresholds/ultimates.

This discussion was never about the most optimal DPS, but about the superiority/inferiority of each mode. If you want to make any statements regarding that matter, then you need a good reference point. For Jagex this is a mediocre rotation, not the optimal one described in the article. So this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, of course the most optimal rotations will be superior to Legacy as Jagex meant it to be superior!

The opinionated part is that you believe Jagex' reference point is wrong. This is not part of the wiki as in violation of the NPOV policy. What can be stated that an undefinable number of players disagree with Jagex. It is up to the reader to agree with Jagex or the group of players. We should not sway the reader to either points but address them both.

I do not know what Jagex means by mediocre rotation. Maybe it is indeed the standard rotation, maybe not. To my knowledge, Jagex hasn't stated anything about it. I agree this page is very helpful to use the most optimal rotations. Which mode they should use is a different thing, we should not hint towards any.

Healing etc. are all excluded from the question which mode is balanced or not DPS-wise. It is not part of this wiki article to make a full comparison between the modes and certainly not convince people in using one.

We should not make pre-assumptions of the validibility of certain set-ups. We should not include factors that are irrelevant to the equation (like defence abilities).We should not exclude any set-up from the equation because you perceive it is not an option. In the game it is very well an option players can choose, and when examining the global comparison of the two modes DPS-wise all options should be included. That is the most NPOV.

ColossusRS (talk) 22:58, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Too many bars[edit source]

There are more and more scenarios leaking onto the page, giving more and more bars to look at. Think it is worth moving at least some bars to a subpage and maybe including more scenarios? Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 17:19, March 18, 2015 (UTC)

Corruption Shot/Blast[edit source]

Any chance of including these? They're really useful. 00:47, March 14, 2016 (UTC)

As mentioned several times, additional bars are on Revolution/Bars Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 20:54, March 20, 2016 (UTC)