Talk:Draconic visage/Archive 1

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This talk page is for discussing the Draconic visage/Archive 1 page.
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Please do not edit the contents of this page. Direct any additional comments to the current talk page or contact an administrator for aid if no talk page exists. 16:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)Hey big thanks to the person who un redlinked and linked up the dragons and oziach its something i find myself unable to do (lazyness).Dark0805 23:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


well so far ive counted atleast 4k black dragon iron and steel kills together and yet no vissage ive spent ages trying to get and u ppl always talk about luck its just some random generated numbers from a computer program to determain ur drop there may be a little luck included but i highly doubt that rs makes it almost inpossable for people to get a vissage just like a bandos item from gwd the fact is they have computers generalting everything especailly drops.

Luck or Planned

Now if you think about it, computers don't have the ability to randomize drops since it runs on numbers and can't have a coin flipping type of program. Giving a percent chance is like giving it a guess... it's not going to be the same for everyone. The game most likely gave a starting equation, and the x's and y's are just based on other drops by unknown monsters. So think of it like this: In the last hour, a waterfeind dropped 2,234 charms in that world. Then a hellhound dropped 17 clue scrolls in that hour. And in that hour 3,456 iron dragons were killed. Then they would add the first two together, and subtract it from the amount of iron dragons killed. After that, they would use that number to give that numbered iron dragon killed to drop a visage. Confusing, I know. And this isn't the real equation. All I'm really saying is that it is impossible for it to be a random drop. Though it seems to me, that the first drop seems to be the "luckiest". So, I suggest that if your first KBD drop isn't a visage, try the black drags, then irons, steels and finally miths. If your first drops on every type of dragon fails, I suggest hunting iron dragons for a Draconic god980<---

In my humble opinion, when a drop rate of a certain item is 1/1000, it means that after each kill you have a 1/1000 chance of getting the item. It does not mean that you will get the item every 1000 kills.  Tien  21:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

that is my thought exactly. you hear of people getting it on there 100th drop and some after 12k kills no drop. thus that leads me to conclude that it is globe killings that cause the drop. another point is its a bonus drop. so what if it means that every 1000th kill in the world the add a visage to it? eandm7

That would make it impossible to get a rare drop twice within a short period of time, which I'm fairly certain is not the case. 18:25, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's something for all of you, is dragon slayer needed to get a visage? I have never heard of someone getting it without completing the quest so is this in fact a truth or myth?

It is a myth, I have gotten visage on my char when i was 1 def pure and had 76 range. Camped them from 60-76 range and got many d legs and skirts and finally a visage, so no need to do dragon slayer to get a drop. Now im back camping them untill i get another visage even if i have to go all the way to 99 range :)- Znake_Zlavik

I don't think your theory is correct, Because I've gotten a visage, and a friend has gotten a visage when we were in the evil chicken's lair, in the same minute. 1000 black dragons could not have been killed in less than a minute. Claw B 21:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC))

A couple friends went to KBD and got visage on second kill...That would make their drop rate 1/2 which is complete BS so it has to be totally random.

No, it wouldn't. To even think of calculating a drop rate you would have to get a minimum of 2 visages; the more the better. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 23:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay throwing this out here, totally doesn't make sense but what if it was a visage drop, but it was only every 1,000,000 dragon kills. What I mean by this is like what was said at the top of this header, but with a twist: Say every time you kill (let's say for example) a black dragon, a number adds up to the system, +1. now that number goes onwards and adds up to a larger, already formed pile called "Black Dragon Visage drop" now all over runescape, in it's 170+ worlds, everytime someone kills a Black Dragon that numbers adds to the pile, and on the 1,000,000 kill, whoever got the kill would recieve the visage, after that, the pile resets back to 0. Could explain when someone gets the visage first try, because all over runescape they were the person who killed the 1,000,000 Black Dragon. but that just sounds ridiculous even to me.

another point of view.

I have played RS since 2001. I have looked through scripting engines involved with the game and every other thing you can imagine. Drop rates ARE COMPLETELY RANDOM. They have nothing to do with the account, or any other factors. Let's start with an example from steels / irons. I went there on a range / mage hybrid of mine, killed over 1k irons and got absolutely nothing. was out of pots on a trip and decided to kill a fw steels. killed 5 steels, got a visage, a legs, and a skirt. KBD: i have been to kbd many times on many accounts. I have gotten a total of 8 visages there, and 4 KBD heads. two of the visages were from one team trip with lootshare, and most were solo.

Imagine a spinner, such as used for the game Twister. every possible drop from a monster is on a wheel, not counting outside drops. bones and hides are 100% drops at black dragons, they are not on a wheel. charms are on their own wheel. there is a spot on the wheel for nothing, and varying sized spots for the 4 basic color charms. the wheel with outside drops has a very very small spot of a visage, and the rest of the wheel is nothing. the drops wheel has every drop possible on it, with more common drops having larger spots. It is possible to get infinitely many visages in a rrow, although extremely unlikely. each time you kill a dragon, all the wheels spin, wherever the charms one lands, you get that. you could get any drop any number of times in a row, just as in Twisterm you could get, for instance, left hand green, every turn you play.


Note: They also got kbd heads JUST before visage, so if you get kbd heads, hang in there for one more kill, it'll be worth it.

nope thats not true ive goten 2 kbd heads , i from loot share other solod next kill no visage.. thats not how it works

Just putting this out there.

The Draconic visage is a "bonus" drop. This means that it is included in a dragon's main drop, and it is never the main drop itself, meaning it can be dropped as well as another item, like dragon platelegs. As such, it is believed, and has been confirmed by Jagex, that the visage is NOT affected by the Ring of wealth.

13:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC) 13:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)italiano3362

Yes, it says so on the article page. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 13:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

What If?

Just throwing this idea out there (because everything else has pretty much been said) What if there are no "random" drops. Like..and i might sound dumb by saying this but...what if there was something that decided the time when one would drop, like its never a random drop. kind like if the number of..say, d skirts started to diminish...whats saying that they couldnt do something to the extent of say at this time, this place, this will drop. and yes i know that it would be impossible because 1. no one could be able to moniter all of the item populations.; 2. you couldnt really mid way write it into the game code. but idk just kinda wondering what u guys thought....or even if anyone uses this anymore

Draconic Visage

Ok, I think that getting a visage is purely luck. I have killed an estimated 6.5k irons and steels, having gone from 69-89 range just at metals. I have gotten about 3 d legs, and 2 skirts, and 1 visage. I got the visage at 85 range, so it took me about 4.5k kills to get one. I think it's purely luck and I'm just one unlucky person. I agree with the wheel idea of drops.


my theory on drops!

ok like said above there are spinners that spin. but there isnt just one there is 3 of them. 1 is a charm drop spinner, the other is a common drop spinner, and the last is a rare drop spinner. ok now when u kill the monster the charm and common drop spinners spin. what ever spot the spinners land on is wat u get, but on the common drop spinner there is a very small spot that takes u to the rare drop spinner. so when u hit that spot the rarte drop spinner spins. on the rare drop spinner would be every rare drops that the monster can drop. so that is how it works in my opinion.

--Bigzekeman 16:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)bigzekeman--Bigzekeman 16:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The Rare Drops

I have heard multiple stories about how people have killed thousands of dragon and never gotten a visage drop. But I have a question to them, did they kill those "thousands" of dragons all at once or did they take several trips just killing, say, 100 each time? I have a theory about the drop system that plays off of what a lot here have already said.

The first main part of my theory is the "spinner" or roulette theory of drops. Jagex posted an article in the Postbag from the Hedge (I think) from Guthix and it was posted a while ago. In this article it described how RS's drops worked. Guthix explained it as 2 roulette wheels, the first being common drops, and the second being rare drops. When a monster spawns the first common roulette wheel spins, and whatever it lands on is the drop. BUT there is a small chance (probably a 5-10% chance) that it can land on the "rare" drop portion of the wheel. When it hits rare portion of the wheel, the rare wheel spins. On this rare wheel are all of the rarer items (Duh...) including items such as dragon drops, visages, and other high value items. This is where the ring of wealth comes into play. Because also on this rare item wheel there is (probably) a 50% or higher chance of getting "nothing". The ring of wealth diminishes that chance of getting nothing by 15% (or raises the chances of the rares by 15% if you want to think of it like that). And all of this was explained by Jagex. Now onto the second critical part of my theory.

The second part of my theory is the most unbelievable but I and all of my friends on RS believe in it. The second part of this theory is the drop streaks. This part of my theory is that if you (or anyone around you) is getting good drops, stay in that world because of the rare streaks. I have heard (and believe) that this rare roulette wheel must go through all of the drops it has (including all rare items) before can reset and give drops it has already given. So it must give out every item it can (including coins, rune javs, clues, darts, dragon legs, visages, and nothing) before it can reset itself and drop the items it has already dropped again (thus one full cycle). So the jist of what I am says is that if you just got dragon legs, keep killing the dragons, because you could have luckily landed on a rare item spot, or you could have just started a rare item streak. But note, this roulette wheel applies to all of the same monster throughout the entire RS world (EX: all black dragons in world 60). So some notes to take out of this: 1. If you recieve a rare item drop, stay in the world and kill more. 2. If you hop into a world and the drops have been crappy, it is your choice to stay or go, because the cycle could have just reset, or nearing the end and about to go on a rare streak. 3. If you hop into a world and the drops are good, stay because hopefully you joined right in a rare streak.

Here is a testimonial about how this theory works: Right after the release of the visage, one of my friends (a now level 136) with a group of his friends went down to Brimhaven and started killing irons. It was only a few kills in that my friend got his first visage, he left and sold it. A few hours later (in the same world) the friends that he was with were still killing dragons and asked him to come back down because they were getting good drops. He went back to Brimhaven and within 30 kills received another visage drop. The strange part is is that while he was gone, no one (until that streak right when he came back) got any good drops. Some may call this luck but all I see is that with all of the masses of people who were killing metal dragons that day (in all of the worlds) the roulette wheel was going through multiple cycles and my friend just happened to be there when it hit the peak of the cycle.

I personally have killed around 500-750 dragons and no visages. When I go kill metals I usually kill 60-100 dragons because thats all I can bring for supplies. I have no visages, but a few d legs drops and multiple smaller drops. One the last trip I made (while posting this) I had just finished my slayer task when I got a d spear. Interested I stayed and killed another 20 irons. Within the next 20 drops I got a rba, 5 rune limbs, a d med, a clue, and finally another set of d legs. Then I ran out of supplies (Dammit) and had to telly back. But there was the beginning of a rare streak.

I hope this article will help clear some people thoughts of how the drop system works.

wouldi get it?

this guys tole my black drag kill and he got a visage he showed it to me the lil bitch lol anyways, would i have gotten it?

Chances are, no. The fact is no one knows how the system works. However, it is almost certain that drops are determined as the monster dies. Many people think monsters are assigned items when they are spawned. But in the programming world, random actions (random actions are actions when the computer decides what occurs next) are triggered at the same time the action occurs. In other words, the computer does NOT say in advance, "This dragon will drop a Visage when it dies". Instead, it says, "The dragon has dropped to 0 HP, drop a Visage now". So, you could literally of gone back in time and killed that dragon, but the computer randomizes it so you may not have gotten it. However, it is possible you could have gotten one. Everyone in the game has the same chan

Okay, I feel that the only, and reasonable choice is that the chance for rare drops such as the visage is completely regarded by luck. There more then likely is no chance percentage because of it being complete luck. I went to black dragons searching for a visage, to my astonishment i got one on my about 60th kill. After that, i sold it,but then after thinking i was getting bored of runescape I put the cash in a drop party. So i got back on, was mad i had no money so i went for another visage. So far i have killed over 1k of them and nothing. That pretty much proves the thoery wrong about being a chance to get it. it is complete luck. thats is randomized

Well, apparently what you feel is not what other people feel. ShinyUnown T | C | E 11:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe you're misunderstanding the chance theory - it is not "every xth dragon will drop a visage", it is "when you kill a dragon there is a 1 in x chance of getting the visage" - this theoretically means that you could get a visage on every kill, just as much as you may never get a visage (but if you kill ∞ dragons you will get a visage, but of course that can't happen). Also, I suspect it is much easier to program a chance system than a completely random luck system. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 14:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

its all based on drop rates.. thats why there is ring of wealth; the ring of wealth does not affect bonus drops which = the draconic visage and cluescrolls.

okay what you have to do in situations like this is go with what jagex has told you in the past, when explaining the ring of wealth they said a first ring spins and if it lands on a rare a second ring spins, this means that they use at least 2 random number generators which means the 2bill number that java is limited to would be exponentially higher, secondly there is NO "drop rate" in runescape you're using the wrong words, there is a drop probability which means the chance you have of getting a visage at the time of that drop. it doesn't matter how many other people have killed as it doesn't affect you personally nothing has an effect on this its a computer program and it is in fact pure luck as there is no way to control it, even if you knew what jagex's formulas were and knew everything you possibly could you wouldn't be able to control when you get a visage drop, more likely you'd be able to accurately predict when you would get one. but the point is you can make as many drop tables as you want. you can use all the math you want, you won't be able to accurately predict when a visage will drop, its too rare and too random, the only way to get one is to go and kill dragons, sometimes for weeks on end, so good luck  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

okay what you have to do in situations like this is go with what jagex has told you in the past, when explaining the ring of wealth they said a first ring spins and if it lands on a rare a second ring spins, this means that they use at least 2 random number generators which means the 2bill number that java is limited to would be exponentially higher, secondly there is NO "drop rate" in runescape you're using the wrong words, there is a drop probability which means the chance you have of getting a visage at the time of that drop. it doesn't matter how many other people have killed as it doesn't affect you personally nothing has an effect on this its a computer program and it is in fact pure luck as there is no way to control it, even if you knew what jagex's formulas were and knew everything you possibly could you wouldn't be able to control when you get a visage drop, more likely you'd be able to accurately predict when you would get one. but the point is you can make as many drop tables as you want. you can use all the math you want, you won't be able to accurately predict when a visage will drop, its too rare and too random, the only way to get one is to go and kill dragons, sometimes for weeks on end, so good luck

so basically the chances of getting a visage has the chance of anywhere between 1 in 2 to 1 in 2,000,000,000 to the 2 billionth power, i'm sure jagex doesn't use numbers that large but thats the idea, they don't want you to be able to guess, secondly knowing the drop probability will not help you get a visage all it will do is tell you if you were lucky or unlucky while you were hunting for a visage

My Idea

First of all I'd like to ask whether or not the kill a steel dragon, drop 100k, kill another steel dragon and you get a visage work, because that just sounds like complete bull.

Okay, speaking of that almost incompetent remark on how that could ever work, my idea is:

what if it works like ep-ing?

I figure it could be a lot like the pvp world ep-ing thing. Sit in a hot zone for half an hour with 75k and you go up 25%, could this be it? I've had my friend have 8% ep and get a 750k drop (a possible explanation to people getting a visage on their 2nd or 3rd kill). So I wonder if I sit at iron drags and risk like 25mil and keep killing for half an hour, does the % add up and possibly lead to the drop?

just a thought <{[Dave]}>

Dropping 100k there is most likely fake. I don't think you need to risk a certain amount to get EP and drop visage. Maybe just keep killing and get lucky :) Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 09:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Divine help? visage

This might sound silly to some people butI have gotten a visage from black dragons in traverly dungeon and it took only 140 kills. Now the night before i got i prayed that I would get a visage drop, i was extremely lucky only 140 kills. Also the day i got the visage my friend asked me "Did you get a visage yet noob?'" i was like "not yet" then he says "then get one noob"! so after like 6 kills i get a visage! I imediately sell it then buy dragon claws (unfortunately i lost them). Last week me and my friend were talking about rare items blk drags dropped whatever item we talked about one of us got it as a drop from drag we talked about visage but nothing =/ ive killed about 1.5k drags and no visage but tonnes of clues.


I Programmed a counter for KBD's and so far, I've broken 1400 of them. However i got one visage back at exactly 1k irons. Perhaps its lucky rolls maybe.

There is no such thing as luck on a game rate eprcentage drop absed on as you call it "the wheel". they way it works is no certain person can have luck becuase a computer programe that picks out adds up divdes umltiplys and then gives that dragon a vis drop cannot possibly make your account luckey ortherwise it would be like giving somebody who is gonna skill all the time power to get what they want. The wheel works on a set based amount of number it then multiply's that number by the amount of people killing that kind of dragon divides it by amount killed every say 5 minutes divdes that amount and whoever kills that number will get vis it would slowly build up till it becomes as often as new vis in a dragon every minute and so people do not realise because this works for a set amount of worlds (say 5) in which case only on person killing say kbd will get it in a clan drop and one eprson soloing will get as a item drop also one ls clan will get so that 2 vis has been reieved and one or more split completely dependent on how long and how many killed so as percentage cannot drop under say 5% but it can rise if worlds are very active so drop is had every 30seconds or faster then as the people slowly stop killing drop rate becomes lower because less people can receive the drop. This is just a theory it cannot be completely proven but im sure it is full proof.

-- 23:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)Spit-- 23:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Irons? Steels? Blacks?

Umm... well the subject line pretty much says it all, what type of dragon should i kill? I have 58 Defence (Fail), 75 Magic, 65 Attack, 65 Strength, and 51 Prayer. Mythomagic5 00:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

world view

i was just was probably about my fourth trip to black dragons,(this was back when i very first started fighting them), when i got my first draconic visage. like all people i was jumping out of my seat and showing everyone what i had obtained, then further sold it and got my bandos chestplate. now, on to my question- does anyone think there is a possibility that there is a certain world that a certan player must be in to obtain a draconic visage.....?

No, why would there be? ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  09:24, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

I was killing steel/iron dragons with my friend. A mage came without a ROW. The mage's second kill of all time at metal dragons got him a visage. He showed it to us. The dragon that dropped it was a steel.


if you kill dragons in the hopes of getting a visage, just give it up. you won't get one. you have to have the luck of a god to get a damn visage. i spent every last gp i had to go to iron and steel drags. killed 14,203 of them.. and yes.. i counted :l but then i go to log in.. and guess what. a new update. this causes the game to go slow during this time.. very slow. and guess where i'm at when the screen finally pops up.. c'mon.. take a guess.. LUMBRIGE!!!!!!! it's stupid.. so this caused my to quit the game.. i mean whats the point? i'm all combat so my skill stats suck so it's nearly impossible to make money.. oh and if your wondering how much i lost try full armadyl and 90k rune bolts.. oh and the 6 d legs, and 4 d skirts i had in inventory.. and this all happened just this morning.. :) -- 10:20, September 3, 2009 (UTC)FRESH ECHO-- 10:20, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Generator clear up + how the drops appear

Yes, as we all do know so well, visage is probably one of THE RAREST drops ever placed in the game. As we do know, drops are "random" in the sense that yes, a computer cannot randomize numbers. What a computer does is it has a select set of numbers it places within any possible order, in this case let us all assume (as an example not as a real number) that visage is a 1::1200 drop chance. What people know from this is computers take percentages. They use this percentage on how lucky, to our vocabulary, that this number will appear. However they make this mistake on how many time a drop set (the random numbers) can be reset.

In a computer, you can tell it the number range for a visage. Since we are assuming for example a 1::1200 chance, there is exactly 1::1200 numbers (1,2,3...). BUT a computer can be told to eliminate one number every "kill" so that your chances improve. HOWEVER! It may also be told (assuming Jagex does so but not necessarily) to have a computer reset the randomized order, meaning reorganize the 1::1200 numbers, every possibly 100 kills, or 200, or if ever so vile, 1199 kills.

Another possible way of setting a computer to randomize is to give it a go at telling it to reset every kill. People, although I highly doubt it is true and knowing have never been proven to me, say that when a monster drops some sort of gem, usually sapphire or emerald but includes ruby and diamond, the drops are claimed reset. I have never read a post nor ever understood how this could be proven ingame but...I wont say impossible.

Also to point out, if you have ever taken a calculus class or have any knowledge of how limits work on a graph, that may as well lead to how a visage drop works. Some number c is placed in between to high or low numbers in the graph. Using the IVT test (if you don't know then don't read) on the computer will help prove there is some number c in f(x-1) < f(c) < f(x+1) (I do not know how to write subscripts on this wiki :\ ). Meaning when the limit of f(x)=f(c), then you will get your visage, although this explanation is more of a guess.

--Syp 19:29, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

My views on the subject

Okay, we all know that getting a visage requires much luck, etc, etc. To me, Jagex has each monster drop as percentages, like, visage is maybe 00.01%. This doesn't mean that if you kill 10000 monsters, you will definitely get a visage. It's like flipping a coin, what are the chances that you get tails? 1/2. Suppose you flip a coin and you get heads. This does not mean in ANY way that the next flip must be tails because one out of every 2 flips is tails. All this means is that, for each instance, the chances of getting tails is 50%. The same goes for getting a visage. Each kill, there's that 00.01% chance that you'll get one. This chance doesn't ever increase, it's just that, with enough kills, maybe you'll happen to strike lucky and get that tiny percentage.

That said, good hunting!

Mith's and Visage

Honestly, the whole drop rate theroy is a bunch of FUBAR. I've killed way over 1k mith drags just for sport and the best thing i've gotten from them was their rune items. I've solo'ed KBD for well over a month and never got anything. I did near 100 dragons (mith/kbd) a day and never got anything. I have 2 KBD heads to show how long i've spent there. NEVER GOT A VISAGE. I've killed over 15k lower metal dragons. 2 D legs, one skirt. Either Jagex doesn't like me or the whole drop thing is completely screwed up.

Extracts from RuneScape Content Q&A Answers:
K Ous asks:

I would like to ask preciesly how monster drops are calculated.

My questions are:
1. Are monster drops to a specific type of monster(I will use Tormented Demons for this example) determined as soon as it spawns, during the curse of the fight, or at the end of the kill?/

2. Is it calculated with factors like damage dealt, damage received, speed of the kill and others like the drop rate of a specific item(Dragon Claws), LSP* and ring of Wealth? does it use factors at all? and if so what are they? (*Loot Share Points)

3. Every monster spawn at a particular spot wich is diferent from other monsters in the same area, is the drop calculated as a total of all the monsters killed in that server? For example if whoever kills the 300th monster of that particular species gets the rare drop that we were all fighting for. or is it calculated for each individual spawn?

4. Does the number of monsters you have killed add to your lsp, even if its not the same type of monster?

Mod Benny:
1. and 2. The number of kills you have gained is irrelevant. Only the loot affects your LootShare Points (LSP), but loot from one monster does affect your LSP in all situations, regardless of whether or not you are fighting the same type of monster.

Most drop tables are completely random in that they have a long list of possible items with different odds attached to them, and a random number is generated to select one of them. Some items, such as charms, are dropped separately from the monster specific item table Drop tables that are affected by other factors, such as the ring of wealth, may have this random number modified to improve the likelihood of better items being chosen. The ring of wealth, in particular, is not a wide-ranging factor, but only used in manually selected drop tables, so, in some cases, the ring of wealth may have an impact, and in other cases not.

3. Each drop is calculated individually. You are just as likely to get a specific drop on the first kill of a monster as you are on the 1,000th kill, and so on.

4. Yes.

— K Ous and Mod Benny, RS Content Q&A
Columbus Oh asks:

Do you stealth tweak peoples luck? Do you alter the luck individual accounts, for secret reasons, without telling anyone about it?

Mod Fetzki: Can I answer this in any way that you would believe? I’ll try. Try imagining why someone who can create cool quests or create the most fun in a minigame would use their time to do something as unrewarding as that. Is there any reason why he or she would? I certainly can’t think of any. If someone has broken the rules, then we punish them either with mutes or with bans, but if they enjoy the game, then we don’t interfere with that at all.

— Columbus Oh and Mod Fetzki, RS Content Q&A
This confirms that
  1. Drop rates are constant, 1/x style numbers.
  2. 'Account luck' is a myth.
This should answer and and all queries/statements/whatever on this page. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 22:51, September 11, 2009 (UTC)