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This talk page is for discussing the Destroy page.

Dual wielding for destroy[edit source]

I'm not sure that the statement that "destroy makes dual wielding vastly superior to using a 2h in 1 v 1 combat" is totally justified, especially since the release of devotion, which made smash a whole lot more powerful. Even before devotion came out, smash was already extremely powerful in 1 v 1 combat due to the fact that you essentially can deal double damage for 5 seconds (3 abilities worth). ( 00:30, January 4, 2014 (UTC))

Okay, before anyone does anymore incorrect edits to destroy, saying that it makes DW a lot better than using a 2h, consider this:

If you are doing PvM, there could be a lot of other factors that change how good destroy is, for example, maybe you don't want to stun the KK, or maybe you are fighting something too weak to absorb all the damage of destroy, thus making aoe stuff better (and no, flurry is not a good aoe ability)

If you are doing PvP, your opponent is likely to have protect melee up. This makes smash a huge asset, as if your opponent doesn't have devotion up, you get to hit 50% more damage overall (if you look at things by minute, you get 60 seconds of half damage without smash, equal to 30 seconds worth of damage, but with smash you get 30 seconds of full damage and 30 seconds of half damage, equal to 45 seconds of damage). If your opponent decides to use devotion, you do damage literally twice as fast overall. (20 seconds of no damage, and 40 seconds of half damage, versus 10 seconds of no damage, 20 seconds of half damage, and 30 seconds of full damage).

(WoHenRe (talk) 14:58, January 4, 2014 (UTC)) 

Flurry takes 6 seconds until the next ability can be used/chained. Hurricane+smash takes 4 seconds until the next ability can be used/chained. Flurry does 320% damage, hurricane+quake does 288% damage. They're pretty comparable considering the difference between flurry and hurricane+quake will need to be multiplied by how many targets you're attacking which can be up to 4 or more.

Destroy on the other hand...Every 20 seconds DW can do a destroy which is 188%x4 damage. the best 2h can do in terms of equivalents is hurricane+3 basics (188%+125x3). So Destroy gives DW 188% more damage every 20 seconds. Considering you'll be making at most 10 attacks every 20 seconds (and that's assuming you don't use any defensive abilities), destroy gives DW 19% more damage per attack which is comfortably more than a 10% increase in overall damage multiplicatively (considering the optimal ability rotation won't be 188% damage on average since you spend about half of your time using basics that range from 100%-125% in damage while the other half using destroy/assault which is about 200% on average). This means using DW over 2h in 1v1 is like having turmoil on compared to having turmoil off (since turmoil boost damage by 10%), that's pretty huge.

Stuns affecting KK's attacks is an unproven myth and I don't work with myths.

Smash is a good ability but ultimately it doesn't really make a difference in PvP because of how not viable melee is. 2h melee essentially have no good KO abilities because assault can be cancelled completely by running back so even using 2h melee is pretty pointless since what's the point of even fighting if you can't KO your opponent before he runs/teles? Melee can't even use abilities while running so rangers can essentially get around smash by start running back as soon as your opponent tries to pray+smash and sending back the occasional stun/bleed to maintain the advantage. Mages can just freeze the melee user's ass and being able to farcast someone and not take damage at all is better than all forms of damage mitigation, like the one smash provides.

The addition of devotion is essentially a double edged sword for smash users as well, since devotion can block smash while it's active. 20:36, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

There are multiple problems with what you are talking about. Firstly, if flurry misses even once, its use as a aoe ability goes in the toilet. Quake also reduces the opponents defense, which isn't accounted for. 

Nextly, the stun stuff on kk was just an example. Disproving one example of where PvM might provide a special case as to something doesn't really say anything about the thing as a whole. Nor does it change the fact that a lot of PvM monsters, such as in slayer, have such little health that destroy is not nearly as good. 

Also, if you are talking about PvP, saying "well, we can ignore smash because melee is not viable in PvP" means we can just as easily ignore everything else in melee PvP. Saying "well, it is a good KO move" only applies to wilderness PvP, which is actually a very small part of PvP in general these days, as people ususally do PvP in minigames or the world event. And please don't point out what rangers/mages can do, unless it specifically counters destroy or smash or somehow changes the balance between dw and 2h using.

And no, devotion cannot block the effects of smash, only possibly the damage from it.

WoHenRe (talk) 22:25, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

AoE abilities tend to only be useful on fighting low level monsters en masse, and flurry isn't going to miss on low level monsters. Likewise the def drain on quake isn't exactly going to be phenomenal when killing weak monsters en masse. On higher level monsters DW undoubtably wins due to destroy due to the fact that you want to kill the main boss first as quickly as possible and many bosses don't even have minions.

Even if destroy isn't as good on lower level monsters it doesn't remove the fact that it is still an advantage that 2h doesn't have. 

If your aim is to outlast your opponent then using a shield (with mage preferably) is far better than trying to do anything with smash due to abilities like reflect. You shot yourself in the foot by mentioning the world event as it is very much about KOs since people can easily run out of the PvP areas or just tele with their token if you can't KO them quick enough, and often people do tele or hug around the boundary. Also trying to say more people do PvP in minigames than the wilderness is plain bullshit given how deserted literally every minigame is and the wilderness having some sort of regular PvP going on with warbands and about 20 people in world 2 edge at any given time.

Pointing out what mages or ranges can do is extremely relevant so why shouldn't I point it out? Mage and range are both very OP against melee right now which greatly undermines the viability of melee in PvP, so it's a great argument against your 'smash makes a difference for 2h melee' claim. 23:04, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

1. Many monsters have a defense that is somewhat low, but it is still feasible to miss on. For example, jadinkos. While you have upwards of 90% chance of hitting them, 1 miss and poof! aoe goes away. If you hit, say 3 targets on average with aoe, you have 12 chances to miss.

2. People heavily underrate the helpfulness of quake, especially when used against boss monsters. The dps due to it usually gets attributed to other abilities.

3. On low level monsters where it doesn't see its full useage, it can easily be outclassed by quake or hurricane.

4. Being that the only counter to devotion is smash, we can agree that 2h is far superior to dw in PvP, yes? That was the entire point. And the wilderness? No, that is dead. Warbands happen very infrequently. And yeah, i'm not sure where you are getting that castlewars is dead. That point is, as you so rudely said, bullshit. Sure, there are a few people in edge (certainly not 20 though) fighting, but it is very easy for any of them to escape the fight, regardless of what style their opponent is using due to how close the wildy wall is. Also, if someone decides to teleport out of the world event fighting, you have essentially achieved your goal, since they are no longer there to contest the location. 

5. As i pointed out before, there are plenty of exceptions in PvM due to how varied monster mechanics are. Abby demon? They laugh at you when they teleport. Maybe you are fighting something where you need to move at a moments notice? Yeah, being channeled doesn't help destroy there. Let me make this clear- these are not the only exceptions. 

WoHenRe (talk) 02:33, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

1. Jadinkos is a terrible example. their slayer level requirements are 10+ higher than their defence levels. For example by the time you get to 89 slayer for jadinko males your stats will be around the 90s (and that's assuming you always do slayer to train and not train 'normally') which means with a half decent weapon (godsword, vine whip), you're not going to miss on jadinkos with 90 or so attack. Especially if you even use the cheapest potions and maybe some prayers as well.

2. Monsters also use artificial defence that's separate from their defence level which draining defence levels will not nerf (unless you want to tell me Vorago is only working on level 90 defence and nothing else, which is less than accuracy of dragon weapons). Heck, we don't even know if defence levels even matter on monsters since originally in the EoC beta levels didn't matter and monsters purely worked on 'artificial defence values' and levels were only changed to made matter for players later on. On the other hand destroy gives quantifiable and very significant dps advantage over 2h for DW. implying an ability with a miniscule defence drain and less damage than almost every single basic ability most of the time can cover this significant gap without any sort of quantifiable evidence is bordering stupidity.

3. ...and DW still has flurry to backup destroy when destroy 'doesn't see its full usage'. Like I already proved flurry is very comparable to quake+hurricane on killing weak monsters en masse. On anything that's not easy to kill where destroy does see its full usage, DW vastly outclasses 2h.

4. I never said 2h is 'far superior' to dw in PvP. Destroy provides 2h with you know, an ability which can actually KO people due to its stun whereas 2h has literally no chance of killing anyone who actually knows a thing or two about pking. Warbands happen infrequently but at least it draws hundreds if not thousands of people there in a big fight when it does happen. I'm not the one who said castle wars is dead, I made a general remark about how deserted minigames are (and world 24 castle wars normally can't even draw more than a dozen players on each team nowadays so it's just as dead as w2 edge) you were the one who tried to bullshit me about how 'most people pk in minigames' when warbands outnumber the people who play castlewars (the only minigame that a few people still even play) by hundreds if not thousands. If someone teles from you in the world event, you're not getting renown from fighting them so how have you 'achieved your goal' especially when they can literally restock and come back 5 seconds later (and they often do) to fight you again and probably kill you unless you go restock as well? 

5. Abby demon? Destroy stun them and they can't tele you when they're stunned, lol (yes they do the purple animation but it doesn't do anything when they're stunned during destroy). and good luck making use of your 2h AoE abilities at non-aggressive abby demons that rarely walk into each other. 16:54, January 6, 2014 (UTC)

1. You base this off of experience? I had duel chaoti rapiers with 95+ attack and overloads. Sure, i rarely missed, but due to how much a single miss damages flurry, i regularly didn't see the full benefit of flurry.

2. And you proposing without that there is definitly no advantege whatsoever of defense draining, well, draing defense isn't stupid?

3. You did not prove that flurry is comparable to quake+hurricane. It can miss, which you do not account for, and even so, it still came out inferior.

4. The article said DW is far superior to using a 2h. Unless implying that you aren't trying to defend the article pre-edit, you did impy that. If you aren't trying to defend the article pre-edit, then why the heck are you trying to debate? Also, if you are trying to KO someone, stun+smash+ultimate is far better than destroy since destroy is getting its damage halved. Also, it should be mentioned that people play various PvP minigames in FCs more than most people realise.

Also, im sorry, i didn't realise that 5 people pking in w2 edge was greater than a dozen + people playing castlewars. Somehow none of my math teachers ever mentioned that 5 is greater than 12. Wierd, huh?

5. Often they teleport right before you start using destroy. In that case, your destroy is often wasted. (yes, i have tested this). Besides, as i have stated 1000 times, these are just examples. For another one, try using DW chaotics at corp versus a zamorakian spear.

WoHenRe (talk) 23:49, January 6, 2014 (UTC)