Talk:Chaotic rapier

From the RuneScape Wiki, the wiki for all things RuneScape
Jump to: navigation, search
This talk page is for discussing the Chaotic rapier page.

Untitled[edit source]

It does NOT have its damage reduced against the Corporeal Beast, or any of the other Chaotic weapons; I suspect this to be misinformation spread by Merch clans.

"Some players suspect using a non-spear type weapon, such as a longsword, results in a damage reduction. This has been confirmed by Jagex as nothing more than rumor. Some people have suggested this rumor was propagated by merchant clans seeking to influence Zamorakian Spear prices." - Corporeal Beast article Vynergy 19:37, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I am sure we all believe you, do you see anything in the forums to prove it? ‎20px‎AtlandyBeer.png 19:38, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
Umm simple question.. chaotic rapier or chaotic longsword? I guess this is similar to the question 'abyssal whip or godsword' so I guess rapier would be more effective in slayer while longsword would be more effective at bosses. What do you guys think? :p Lathow 08:43, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
So if the damage reduction vs the Corporeal Beast isn't confirmed, shouldn't we remove the statement that says otherwise and has apparently been confirmed by Jagex? It has no source which, for a statement like that, idicates that it's a guaranteed falsification. HxC Ferret 22:31, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Best Weapon in the Game..........[edit source]

Or best weapon ever? It's one of those two. HxC Ferret 05:45, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Definately the best weapon in the game right now. Why isn't it Chaotic longsword? Because that's just an extremely slightly upgraded version of vesta's longsword. Why isn't it Chaotic Maul? Cause it's twice as fast.

I wouldn't agree with this. Yes it is the most effective weapon against the most npcs but that doesn't make it the best weapon against all npcs. Lathow 06:21, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

One of the few weapons with def bonus?[edit source]

Erm...Every normal metal longsword has (small) defence bonuses, spears have defence bonuses and I think *not sure* that daggers and shortswords also have small defence bonuses. So I suggest removing that piece of trivia information 88.159.216.101 08:38, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Costly Repair?[edit source]

It's 10 hours of combat. Think about it. It's not exctally costly. Anyone can make 2m in 10 hours of combat. I think that part should be removed due to the skill factor involved in getting a rapier. Not too many level 67's who cannot afford 2m after 10 hours of gametime will be getting this item.

And you can't change this yourself why? HaloTalk 04:08, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
Because he's putting it up for debate?

Attack styles?[edit source]

Does anyone know if it can train strength directly, unlike the whip? Dsctatom 15:47, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

If it's anything like the rapiers in Dungeoneering, which it probably is, then it can train Strength. Achievements Coelacanth0794 Talk Contribs 15:49, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I just added the combat styles after getting one. Dsctatom 06:42, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Chaotic rapier is the best weapon to- I mean, In my opinion Chaotic rapier is one of the best weapons for training str, that is if you dont mind paying 2m or 4 hours of work getting tokens.

Chaotic Rapier vs. Chaotic Longsword[edit source]

I have did a lot of reach into which is better and I think I have some answers that will help people decide.

First thing I learned is that boosts matter a lot. With Extremes and Turmoil, the speed from the Chaotic Rapier is a huge advantage because of the high boosts. It seems to be that the boost from Extremes and Turmoil is big enough to make up for the gap between the two against most high defence monsters so the speed tends to win. Without boosts, the CLS seems to be better for fighting higher defence things due to its higher base stats. So for lower level players without extremes and turmoil or piety, CLS is probably better choice.

Next is weaknesses, since CR is better for stabbing and CLS is better for slashing, even though both can do both. As for weaknesses, there are many monsters weaker to stab than slash. Notable monsters weak to stab are Aquanite, Bork, Commander Zilyana, Corporeal Beast, Dagganoth (Not Supreme), All Dragons, Dust Devil, Fire Giant, Giant Mole, Hellhound, Jungle Strykewyrm, K'ril Tsutsaroth, Nomad, Tormented Demon. Notable monsters weak to slash are Black Demon, Dark Beast, Desert Strykewyrm, General Graardor, Greater Demon, Nechryael, and Warped Tortoise. So as you can see many more higher defence bosses are weak to stab than crush, and for stabbing the CR seems much better than the CLS (19 less str and 11 or so less atk but 1 speed faster).

So overall, I believe Chaotic Rapier is a better choice since most bosses and high level monsters as well as many slayer monsters are weak to stab. However, for General Graardor the Chaotic Longsword is probably better, but for the other slash weak monster the Chaotic Rapier on Slash or an Abyssal Whip should be close enough since they are lower defence. Of course, there are other exceptions, such as PVP where it seems CLS may be better, especially for players without Turmoil/Piety.

Well that is what I found, but it is conclusive the slightest. Both are a great weapons and chances are they close enough to even overall. Bio 04:23, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Results[edit source]

This is a follow up from my previous post on my theory of the differences. I just got my chaotic rapier and tested against my friend's cls. We were near the same other bonuses, not exact but close enough. He did have a bit higher boosts (Chaotic shield>dfs, fire cape>skillcape), but I don't think those made enough difference to prove ht results wrong. All tests were done without food, drinks, and special attack, but some did use prayer. First, we tested weapons in Barrows and DFS/CKS without any prayers. CLS won this easily, without boosts it's accuracy was far better than CR and won in the long run every time. With prayer, only turmoil, it was much closer, nearly a tie, but cls was still better. {C}Next, we tested weapons in Rune with Defenders to simulate gear you would risk, but still did use some items like fury. Without prayer, CLS won again, but it was much closer. With prayer (turmoil only), it was a tie. CR won 3 (one was more of a tie) and CLS won 1, but the none tie wins were rather one sided in hits. We also did no body, leg, helm with defender as shield and turmoil as prayer, CR won everytime. {C}So overall, I think I finally got an answer to this. For PVP, CLS is better. If you are really into pvp, even if it is low risk, and have a CR, I still think CLS would be worth getting. If you occasionally PVP, probably best to stick with CR unless you got enough spare for CLS. CLS is way more accurate and can hit about 40+ more base damage. However, tests were without potions, which may have made CR closer to CLS, but I still think the KO potential and higher accuracy is better for PVP, especially if fighting players in Barrows! For bosses, I am unsure which is better but since many bosses weak to stab, it may be CR. But CLS does still have higher stab atk and str so hard to say. {C}So to sum it up. For slayer CR wins, for bosses they probably tie (CR may win one some, CLS wins on bandos), for no def pvp CR wins, for low def pvp they tie, for high def pvp CLS wins. CLS is best for PVP while CR seems better for PVM. Those are my results and conclusions anyway...Bio 05:42, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

tell us when you take a test that's even. might have different stats and those different boosts dont help much either. kthxbai ʇɐusʌʇɐu 03:18, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

So basically your tests proved what everyones been thinking, the higher the oponents deffence the more effective the cls is compared to the rapier, which means the rapier would be best for slayer and low to mid-level bosses, and pure pking. whereas the cls would be better against medium to high-leveled bosses, normal players (mains), and tanks. Really players just need to decide what they're going to do more to know which to buy first. If you're a pure or you slay alot, get the rapier, if you plan on fighting players in higher def armour (dragon, barrows, torva, etc) or fighting alot of higher leveled bosses then get a cls first. Either way i would just recomend gettign them both in the end anyway. Mofo Pr0 09:21, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

CLS VS RAPIER VS MAUL[edit source]

I've done extensive research on this with an accurate DPS calculator.

The CLS is 2-3% better against monsters with extremely high defense. The rapier is around 20% better against monsters with low defense. The Chaotic Maul greatly beats the CLS in high defense scenarios.

The ONLY case in which CLS is useful is if you need a shield. And the tradeoff is really only worth it when you have a Divine or Elysian. CKS is not good enough to switch from maul to CLS.

So for someone who only wants one or two binds, they should first go with the rapier and then the maul. Rigour and Chaotic Crossbow are both better purchases than the CLS.

Then how do you explain that the CLS has much better stats than the rapier? The rapier is not that much faster that it compensates that advantage for the CLS. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 19:25, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
____
The CLS has better stats but the rapier's speed makes it the overall better weapon. Think about the fact that the rapier is about 25% faster than the CLS. Every 1 CLS hit has to deal as much damage as 1.2 rapier hits. If you have experience with the weapons, you will find that this is usually not the case.
People who own the CLS first and then own the rapier often tell me they regret purchasing CLS first. Rapier is much faster. If you do the math the damage output is SO much higher on rapier for most cases. Even against bandos - the best case scenario for CLS - rapier is basically just as good (2-3% margin).
Having experience with every single chaotic, I can tell you with a high degree of certainity that rapier is the better choice for basically 95% of players. CLS just looks cooler and feels cooler. It is a much weaker overall weapon.
The main two uses for CLS are bandos and safe pvp. However, the maul is comparable or even better (especially for safe pvp) than the CLS for those two uses. You should definitely get the items in the order: Rapier>Maul>CLS.
That's some interesting information, thanks for putting it here on the talk page rather than the article. (: sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 19:37, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
And that while I still doubt it. There is quite a lot discussion what's better, D scim or D long, and at those the speed is exactly the same difference, and the stats are a lot closer to each other. There I can imagine a lot of discussion. In this case, however, the longsword has so much higher stats that I don't think the rapier is so much better. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 19:44, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
________
If you do the math for expected damage output, or if you own both weapons, you would see that my conclusion is pretty valid. Rapier is a MUCH stronger first purchase than CLS. buy the two, test them out for a month, and then tell me which you like better and which you would have bought first.
You can doubt that all you want, but try not to draw conclusions without extensively testing and researching the items yourself.
This isn't just an opinion; it's an opinion based on a lot of research AND experience. Most people I talk to agree with Rapier > CLS, and I think this should be highlighted in the main wiki page.
I don't think buying the two just to test is a good idea. I heard it's quite expensive Wink. It's just that when multiplying the rapier's highest attack bonus(94) by 1.2, you still get 112.8, which is more than 11 lower than the CLS's highest attack bonus, 124. For strength, the 101 the rapier has, multiplied by 1.2 gives 121.2, which is only 1.2 higher than the CLS. Furthermore, the defensive stats are 1 higher for the CLS(should not be multiplied, weapon does not affect monster's speed) so looking at the stats, I really don't see how the rapier would be better than the CLS. So this isn't just an opinion; it's an opinion based on facts. The facts say the CLS is stronger. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 14:33, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, Raging bull explained to me why the rapier always has a higher max hit average, and that the difference is in fact significant. If you devide the max hit of a rapier by 2.4(time needed per hit) and the max of a cls by 3, you get that the rapier is always better than the cls, and the difference is significant at higher levels. If you find a way to put this info on the page without putting any opinion into it, it is okay to add it to the article. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 16:43, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
------
No one fights without other gear. If I used your method with basic gear (torso, fury, neitiznot, bgloves, ddef, dboots) I'd still come up with 165.6/169.2 rapier vs 157/160 cls on strength and attack bonuses. I assume this is what he showed you. 24.88.253.204 05:54, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
------
Assuming a high-level setup of fire cape, fury, bcp and tassets, neitz, dfs, and zerker ring without boosts and level 99 strength, the max hit of CR would be 371, whilst the max of CLS is 403. This comes out to a max dps for CR (371 damage per hit divided by 2.4 seconds per hit) of 154.58, compared to the ideal max DPS for CLS of 143.33. However, the enemy's defence level will change the rate of getting a higher dps. The slight difference in the DPS makes me lean towards CLS more than CR, but boosts will dramatically change this, up to CR with 245.83 DPS and CLS with 214.33 DPS, tripling the difference. I think that, if you prefer to use Turmoil and extremes for everything, CR is the way to go; else, if you prefer a more laid back style, CLS is more accurate and (probably) results in a higher non-boosted DPS.
In 7 words: If boosting, use CR. Else, use CLS.
I can't calc for maul, seeing as the calculator doesn't support CM atm >_> Djur 04:25, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
All the ideas in favour of the rapier seem to only account strength, you really can't forget that the cls has ALOT more attack bonuses as well. People who act like strength is the only factor as far as damage is concerned just seem narrow minded. The rapier might be faster, but its less acurate. And you can't try and tell me rapier is only 2-3% less efecient at bandos than cls, bandos main weakness is slash and the cls has +124 slash vs the rapiers +78.Mofo Pr0 20:10, July 18, 2011 (UTC)
Your calculations ignore 'misses' completely. Which i found annoying whiel reading it because the defence skill does exist... people do wear armour, and therefore you won't hit every time. This means str and speed aren't the only thigns to consider with rapier vs cls. Yes the rapier is 25% faster and the cls only has about 18% higher str (25% more would be needed to make up for lost speed) but the cls has about 34% higher attack bonuses than the rapier meaning against bosses with high deffence it would be a MUCH better weapon because you would see far less misses/zeros from the cls vs the rapier.Mofo Pr0 09:28, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
The 'no miss' models are used since they are the only way we can directly calculate a DPS value (I doubt anyone knows any formulae regarding attack/defence vs hit chance). They are still very useful (actually I'd argue necessary) for getting an idea of which weapon is better. Think of them as approximations of the true DPS. They are very accurate for low defence monsters (where misses are negligible), they become less and less accurate as the defence of the monsters goes up, but they are still approximations (by definition); sort of like Galilean relativity versus special relativity with velocity being the analagous quantity to defence.
Even against higher defence monsters, you can still make accurate conclusions based on what was calculated. For example, if the calculated 'no miss' DPS of the CR was 170, while the 'no miss' DPS of the CLS was 150, we could say that CLS would need to have a hit chance that's greater than 1.13889 times the CR's in order to have a higher true DPS. If the CR hits 90% of the time already, then we know taking account into attack will never bring the CLS above the CR (since the CLS can not hit more than 100% of the time which, even if it could achieve, would only give the CLS a hit chance 100/90 = 1.1 times greater than the CR). To be truely accurate though, you also have to take into things like overkill, a thing that occurs on the overwhelming majority of kills (consider how rare it is to hit *exactly* enough to kill a monster), which favours something with a higher speed hence lower max hit, although I can't say .The Guy 7 05:40, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Lols at RAPIER IS GOOD AT LOW DEF Monsters....[edit source]

all i can say is lol thats like saying a whip is better then a d scim when killing goblins.... i mean really anything with low defense can be killed quite easily i have no issues using a whip for slayer...as nothing more expensive is needed...save u 200k tokens and get a unique weapon like the cls or maul screw the hype


Have you ever heard of weapon speed? The rapier hits every 2.4 seconds compared to every 3 for the longsword. So if you only need 3 hits at most to kill a monster on a slayer task, you're spending only 7.2 seconds on a mob rather than 9. that's 1.8 seconds per mob, and on a task with at least 100 monsters you could save well over 10 minutes by using a rapier rather than a cls. 70.187.178.152 06:42, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


I can confirm this as well. I was skeptical about the chaotics and used a whip for the longest time as well. I was also tempted to go with the CLS but I chose the CR and i was blown away. This weapon is in a different league. Go get one for yourself and you may be surprised. I sure was.
----
what if you miss? because you know that third hit on your rapier might be a zero whereas the cls is more acurate (33% more acurate) so is less likely to hit a zero. Not to mention the cls has higher str (18% higher str) so the cls might only take 2 hits to kill it whereas your rapier just hit twice, missed, then killed it on the fourth hit? You shouldn't treat attack and deffence like they aren't as important as strength. All melee skills are equally nescessary and should be considered equally when decided which weapon is best for different times.Mofo Pr0 09:32, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Tokens VS Money[edit source]

Do you have to use some money? Can you use just tokens? 108.74.115.144 21:51, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Nope, there is no token-only recharge option. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 21:51, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm summat is missing[edit source]

"710 slaying in Kuradal's Dungeon, and 616 elsewhere" I thought the ring gives +40lp to a hit when hanging out at Kuradals. During slayer tasks elsewhere, it should hit 670 correct? So where did the missing lp go? Or is it meant that killing elsewhere and anything that isn't a slayer task?

From the sentence i read out that slaying elsewhere it would hit 616. Just pointing it out..

MAX HIT[edit source]

I think it can hit 723 in Kuradal's dungeon....just did some calculations Quest point cape.pngLewa15151515 Talk HSPrayer-icon.png 21:34, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

- ive hit 723 OUTSIDE of kuadals dungeon before. but i use bersersker ring i and other max str items.


- I don't think you should be asking what the max hit is. Nobody gets rapier because it hits really high, but because it's extremelly accurate and hits reasonably high (most times from 300 to 400). Also, it's a stabbing weapon, which is confusing. It appears to be one of the best, if not THE best, weapons in the game, when other stabbing weapons, except for the Zamorakian spear, seem to be disappointingly weak.

  If you are thinking of high hits, get Dharok's set, use Keris on Kalphites, use Balmung on Daganoths or, if you're a 'rune head', use Fire Surge on Ice Strykewyrms with a Fire Cape. Guthix staff.png Qwe Martiny Guthix's Book of Balance.png

Tokens or GP?[edit source]

I was wondering, since its 200k+20k tokens, or 2m xp. I can get 20k dung tokens in around 40 minutes with a good team. So, in that case, using 20k dung tokens with 200k would probably save me money, as 2m+gp/hr is quite hard to come by these days. How is it for everyone else?

This is a pretty straight forward calculation. You're paying 20k tokens to save 1.8m gold. Hence if you make 20k tokens per 40 minutes, then this is equivalent to making 1.8m gold per 40 minutes, or 2.7m gold per hour. If you can't make 2.7m gold per hour through your best money making method, then it's better play Dungeoneering to charge your chaotics. The Guy 7 13:55, November 17, 2011 (UTC)


       ====  What you need to consider here is what you will be using the Rapier for. Slaying with a generally accepted amount of luck where drops are concerned isn't far off decent income, maybe not ph/hour but ph/task. The Rapier costs 2m to supply a 10 Hour charge, and in 10 hours of slaying, with the occasional fun fight, bork etc, you will more than likely make 2m, especially if Slayer is not your only source of income. Combine Herb farming or Kingdom with slayer and you can easily recharge solely with money. Think about it this way: 10 full recharges of your Rapier using coins and tokens is enough tokens for another Chaotic. Thats mind blowing when you consider in the 100 hours of Rapier use you could gain easily another Chaotic. As far as what I do, I recharge mine with Money, and always walk away from a 10 hour slot with huge profits, just budget yourself and your uses and you'll do fine. :) -Aiden

very Biased.[edit source]

At the release of dungeoneering skill many players thought that chaotic longsword was the best choice, but it is universal throughout runescape that the rapier is the best. The difference in strength levels from abbysal whip and chaotic rapier are that the difference between chaotic longsword and rapier which makes rapier a better choice considering the speed. Many people believe that chaotic longsword is way better for bossing than a rapier but in fact rapier is much better and the fact that it hits fast and uses stab attack makes it the best weapone.

This entire paragraph seems Based on opinion to me, and as i can't seem to edit the page; can someone remove it?

Effin around[edit source]

Recently tons of people have been messing with the Chaotic Rapier page, so 3 things need to happen:

1. You f***heads need to stop.

2. We editors need to be on our toes and able to change it if it happens again.

3. If they don't stop they need to be banned.

I know I'm not a prized editor or anything, but I try my best to change anything I see that is wrong, and I love using this website. You're ruining the website by screwing everything up.

Megareader 16:20, June 16, 2012 (UTC)