RuneScape:Requests for undeletion/Tavvy

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed undeletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. The result was restore. Recreated per RuneScape:Redirecting. May be coloured blue in the near

Tavvy[edit source]

Though the original VfD was invalid, I'm going to try to do the first VfU in several months.

Reasons for undeletion:
  • Players do use it.
    • I use the phrase quite often when talking about Taverley.
    • Matt Degoth (an every-now-and-then visitor to the IRC) uses it.
    • Gangsterls uses it.
    • Players talking about house parties will use it to refer to the location of their house.
  • All towns that don't have a bizarre name when shortened and having an added "y" have a shortened nickname. Examples are:
  • Just because one has never heard about the phrase in so many years, that does not mean that the phrase is not a real phrase. After over four years, I've never heard anyone use "[ ]" to refer to a town square or sq shield. I've only heard "ftl" once. And so on with some phrases. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 08:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a "lamest edit wars ever" section, like Wikipedia? If not, I put this forward as a candidate. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 12:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently nothing has been this lame before. A dozen deletions and subsequent re-creations of a redirect, how can you beat that? Skill 22:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, what the ****? It's a fricking redirect. Lumby, Cammy, Fally. How is this so damn "dumb" [compared to the rest of them]? May be coloured blue in the near

Strong undelete per that quote. May be coloured blue in the near

Support undelete - per what Chia said. Dragon chainbody.pngEmosworldSysop crown.svg 08:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, with regards to the argument that the original VFD was invalid. It is a minor point, but I'd like to set it straight. As far as I can tell, the deletion policy cited was never approved by the community. The criteria listed apply more to speedy deletions than controversial ones, in any event; the fact that only an small minority of VFD candidates are actually in violation of this policy is further proof that there is little consensus behind its application in these cases.

Now, to the topic at hand. Personally, I've never heard this used in-game, given that I don't tend to be in the Taverley area very much. So I was a bit skeptical considering that it sounds a bit... yes. However, I've recently been approaching things like this from a broader perspective, writing a list of points for a deletion policy to replace the current one. Redirects are intended to increase the flexibility of the search bar for readers. All things considered, it is plausible that someone will search "Tavvy", despite how pointless such a redirect seems for those of us who've never heard the word before. Therefore, I'm going to have to agree this time that the redirect should be restored. Skill 09:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I must note however that several times, the relative simplicity of the phrase has been given as a reason to keep. If this is just a way to make getting to the article easier, rather than a phrase legitimately used by players, then there is no reason to restore. Skill 03:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Strong undelete it's easier to remember than tavarly, taverlay, taverly, ....!!! however it's spelt!!! Chrislee33 16:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted I personally have never heard a player in-game use Tavvy. Just because 3 wiki members use it does not mean it deserves a redirect. I highly doubt that many people coming on to the wiki will search up "Tavvy" anyways. --Whiplash 03:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted. As Whiplash says, it's hardly a common usage. More than 75%, no, 90% of the RS community calles other towns "Lumby", "Fally", and "Ardy", but I have never, in my at least three years of playing - counting the time I didn't play much, mind you - ever heard someone utter the word "Tavvy". I understand it's hardly anything to the Wiki itself to have a silly redirect like this, but that doesn't change the fact that it's silly. Oddlyoko talk 03:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I change my vote to Weak oppose (as in I weakly want it to stay deleted). Both sides raise good points, and I don't honestly think the wiki will be affected too much no matter who wins. This is, indeed, a stupid argument. 22:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted - The "invalidation" of the VfD was in itself invalid, as the VfD was legit.

And as far as I know, players pretty much never say "Tavvy" unless it was told to them in the first place. I do not think it is relevant that someone named Matt Degoth uses the word.

The word "Lummy" is also nearly never used except as a typo, and all the shorthanded words mentioned have their full names not ending with a "y", such as LumbridgE, CameloT, FaladoR, ArdougnE, EdgesvillE, RimmingtoN, and WildernesS. TaverleY already ends in a "y", which probably goes further to why "Tavvy" was never used in the first place.

And "ftl" and "[]" were actually existent outside of RSWiki, not to mention they are not references to places. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 04:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Strong undelete - Tari, the VFD was invalid because Tavvy did not fit any of the criteria for deletion of a redirect (see the VFD, I forget who posted the criteria). Some people do use it, even if it's not "90%" of people who play RS, so don't say it was never used in the first place. Chia brought up a very good point that almost every city has a nickname ending in -y. The bottom line is, with a redirect, the question isn't Why?, the question is Why not?. Unless another article can be created instead of the redirect, there's no reason not to have one. Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk04:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The VfD was valid due to there was an argument on it that involved a delete war and required a decision to delete it. A personal opinion should not invalidate a VfD in itself. And that point Chia made was explained by how none of their extended names ends in a "Y". And making a redirect for the sakes of a redirect would also allow making "V" redirect to Varrock. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 04:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
This can't be compared to a one-letter redirect... Tavvy makes sense as a logical nickname for Taverley... a ton of words in RS start with V, and a one-letter redirect would be completely absurd. Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk23:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Support undelete. I don't see how restoring the redirect would do any harm the wiki, given that there are nickname redirects for other towns. It's a plausible abbreviation as well, although I've never heard it before. If someone said 'meet me in tavvy' I'd probably work out where they meant though. Pointy 11:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted not enough people even go to taverly to call it a casual name like the big cities have, are we going to be calling barbariasn village barby? or morton morty? this is going a bit too far, considering the only things worth bothering with there are the house portal and the herb shop.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bob2006ty (talk).

Support undelete I have not used any of short names for places, before I have heard them from other players. Tavvy is pretty good as short for Travelry, Taverly, Taverley, Taverlay? Golduin 12:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Support undelete

i think it does not harm the wiki. user:Tdrone

Keep deleted Before that crappy fiasco as whether to delete the Tavvy redirect, I had never heard a player refer to Taverly as "Tavvy" (let alone use it myself). Now, it's just plain rediculous-and for those of you who think that since three-fourths of players asked if Tavvy was OK-and multiplied by the million members on RuneScape makes a lot more people who say "Tavvy"'re just wrong, you know that? Maybe more than ten players in the world use it, but certainly not 670,000 players (as Gangsterls's "logic" implies). I say we keep it deleted; it's the most rediculous redirect I have seen ever. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko)

I never said anything about three-fourths of the people in RS using it, and 670,000 is two-thirds of a million, not three-fourths... If you're going to accuse people of flawed logic, don't directly address people who didn't even make the statements that you're trying to criticize. Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk
Don't make stuff up, Gang. You know you typed this:
"I didn't think that I'd have to explain basic arithmetic to you but... 4/6 people that Chia asked agreed. That's two thirds. Multiply that by the million subscribers and we get about 670,000 players who would agree. It is the solution because it is supported by evidence, logic, and our policies."
Please don't lie to me-enough people do it every day at school to me already. Though I WILL admit that I was wrong in thinking three-fourths instead of two-thirds. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko)

You're bringing up a poll that Chia took during the old VFD that I didn't even mention here. You said my logic was flawed but you didn't explain which logic... and how many people have you asked? There's no evidence otherwise. Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk21:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Strong undelete clogs up the Wanted pages, and this is the most stupidest excuse for an argument ever. King Black Dragon.png This dude is evil King Black Dragon.png like hellArnie 17:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - It's only linked to by three pages, all of which can easily have the Tavvy link replaced with No page. Although I agree 100% with the 'stupid excuse for an argument' bit. Oddlyoko talk 18:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Comment. This is absurd. You're all making a laughing stock out of yourselves. How about you come up with some way to choose restore or leave, like tossing a coin, within the next hour, and then just leave. It. Alone. -.-; JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 18:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Amen. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko)

Undelete Why to delete this? Holy God! its just a redirect!, its not going to get the wiki slower or anything...Jigo22 19:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

undelete redirects are cheap. Rich Farmbrough, 20:31 27 November 2007 (GMT).

Undelete. Why shouldn't it exist? Answer that and I might change to oppose. 100% made by monkeys. talk|editcount 20:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Because no-one calls it Tavvy. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 20:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Not true. I call Taverley "Tavvy" for starters. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 22:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Seriously, can't we just leave it at whatever state it's in? It's not gonna change the world. Let's go do something more productive. Butterman62Ice Barrage icon.png 21:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Undelete The word "Tavvy" could only conceivably be used to mean Taverley (at least in the context of RuneScape), so anyone entering it in the search box will be looking for that article. Having Tavvy redirect seems very reasonable. The fact is that some people may (for example) have difficulty in spelling Taverley (which is why Taverly redirects to it). Therefore, they may just enter "Tavvy" and let the redirect do the hard work for them. Is there a policy of trimming away seldom-used redirects? It seems pointless to remove something that does no harm, and can only do good. Leevclarke 21:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Undelete The people that use this word are going to use it when they are searching. as Leev said "Is there a policy of trimming away seldom-used redirects? It seems pointless to remove something that does no harm, and can only do good. " . Blazel 21:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Undelete. I didn't have a coin to flip, so I used a credit card. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 22:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Undelete Would it hurt anyone to have a page called Tavvy (apart from the person who deleted it)? --Whyareall 23:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep Deleted To make redirects for every little thing is stupid. What is next "f" for Falador?. Also, 2 "new" wikians jump in to vote? Do I smell something?Wintumber tree.png Atlandy 23:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I "smell" it too. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 23:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
If you want to accuse someone of sockpuppetry, don't hint about it... Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk23:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Really now, that's a fairly ridiculous argument. "F" could stand for other things (Fremennik Province, Fremennik Isles and Feldip Jungle are all locations beginning with F), whereas Tavvy could only stand for Taverley. If you can suggest what else the word "Tavvy" could possibly mean then I will concede defeat and stop trying to get the redirect undeleted. Leevclarke 14:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Tavern. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 15:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will admit that I had not thought of that. According to Bar (location), there is only one bar with "Tavern" in the name, and that is the Rising Sun Tavern in Falador. Anyone talking about that particular building would surely refer to it by name, or search for "Tavern" and not "Tavvy". Furthermore, "Tav" could just as easily be short for Tavern or Taverley, just as "Tavvy" could (even though Tav redirects to Taverley).
Nevertheless, I will concede defeat. I don't think I could reasonably offer much more to this debate anyway.  ;-) Leevclarke 20:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Undelete Why delete it? It's only a few kilobytes for the database, so why not have it anyway?Zeldafanjtl 01:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's only about 0.03 of one kilobyte. 30 bytes is a truly, truly small amount of data. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 04:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Instead of considering this one case alone, we should drop this for now and work out a general rule for all redirects. Then once that's settled, we can solve any disputes over whether "Tavvy" meets these criteria or not, if needed. It'll be easier to reach a consensus if we do it this way. Skill 23:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - hmmm... has anyone ever seen Tdrone, Blazel, or Zeldafanjtl before...? Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk02:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Thanks for pointing that out. Wintumber tree.png Atlandy 02:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe I've seen Whyareall before either... Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk02:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Oi! I'm not a sock puppet! Do a Google search for 'whyareall'. EVERY SINGLE USER THAT IT SHOWS IS ME.--Whyareall 18:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not about sockpuppetry, it's about users without 50 edits, and having some degree of recognition and credibility, not being able to vote on these things. 18:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it's very nice accusing someone of being a sock puppet or have no knowledge of what goes on around here. It is plastered above every article I go on and thought why not give my 2 cents. Blazel 20:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Comment - I can vouch for Blazel not being a complete noob. They have been a regular on the IRC, for as long as they've been around. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 20:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't read into what I said... I just said I hadn't seen them before... Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk20:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You know, if you put something on the freakin' site notice, you can't really be surprised when people come to vote that wouldn't normally come... Sysop crown.svgTes FanSysop crown.svg 02:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That never seems to happen with the RfAs and RfBs. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 02:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, allowing "Tavvy" for the reasons of other similar cities being called that would be the same as allowing "Varry", "Letty", or "Porty". Ever heard of "Varry"? Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 02:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

For example, Varrock and Varry both have two syllables, which is why players typically use Varrock. Taverly and tavvy, on the other hand, have 3 and 2 syllables respectively, meaning that players will use the shorter version. May be coloured blue in the near
Lumbridge has been commonly called "Lumby", Edgeville has been commonly called "Edgy", and Ardougne has been commonly called "Ardy", yet all three have only two syllables. Likewise, Canifis has nearly always been referred to as "Canifis" rather than "Canny", Al Kharid has been often referred to as "Kharid" or just the full name "Al Kharid" rather than "Kharry", and Port Phasmatys has pretty much never been referred to as "Phassy", yet they have three or more syllables. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 04:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted Never used it, never saw it used... until I saw this VFD.Second-abyssal-whip.pngPatheticcockroachGuthan's platebody.png(Talk) 09:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted I have never seen this used in game or on here until now, I understand shortening the names of major cities like falador to fally, or lumbridge to lumby, but naming minor places too? all there is there is a house portal and a herb shop thats worth bothering with, people tend to pass through it more than anything, most times i go there it is deserted or someone is passing thru, giving such an insignificant place a nickname is stupid, are we going to call barabarian village "barby"? or morton "morty"? we have to draw the line somewhere, and I think this is it, since its not a major city or significant gathering place for players keep it deleted. ps I know camelot isnt a major place, but since its the most convienient teleport for reaching seers village and so many people think they are the same thing, we can let that swing, i call the place cammy after the teleport all the time, just in case someone tries to use that, thats the reason that ones allowed. Green partyhat.png Bob2006ty(RUNESTORM333)  talk Green partyhat.png 10:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC) You can't vote twice - Tesfan

Undelete I think it is better if we actually kept this undeleted because of a few reasons I have formulated. My first reason is based on one of the reasonings above. The reason is that that link wouldn't take up much space anyways and that wouldn't really be a hassle on the members of the wiki. The next reason is that would it really bother those people who don't use that shortcut? If you think about it, it wouldn't really affect those people. The only people who will be affected are the people who use this shortcut, and that we should also be concerned of what they think. I mean if people didn't use the shortcut "lummy" in the first place and everyone thought it was a bizzare name or they don't use it anyways then it wouldn't be the shortcut we would be uing today or we might have not even used any shortcuts for that matter. Pilt001 11:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted Personally I've never seen Tavvy ever used, even with all of the young Rs players (seems like they would use it, but it has yet to be seen by me). I have always seen, and myself used Tav. I have also never seen the word Edgy used to describe Edgeville, it has always occurred to me that players have just used Edge as a nickname. Dragon hatchet.png <- Velireon -> Dragon hatchet.png

Strong undelete Tavvy deserves a redirect. I agree with Gangsterls, why not! I just started playing this year, but I see a lot of people use the short version of almost all the cities - including Tav and Tavvy. Not all of them end in y, but there are a lot of shorthand typers out there. I use the abbrevations myself, as do my kids and their friends. When I first looked up the cities here, I expected to see the shorthand versions since everyone had been using them while playing. We let newcommers know what people are talking about. Isn't that what Wiki is all about informational site? I started calling Barbarian village Barbie Vill right away. I've also already heard and seen the Grand Exchange called GE and Gex as well. People are going to take a shortcut when they can, and wording is no diff. So we might as well let the community know what those abbreviations mean. BTW, I have a friend who started playing back when it was classic. He said he's never ever seen anyone say Hoob - yet here it is on Wiki in the abbreviations ...also Tavvy is there, but not Tav and so is Edgy. --Momenator70 16:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Strong Undelete- Its a stinking redirect!!! you know, people who use this site arn't all part of the Wikia! there might be someone who plays runescape, but not part of the wikia, who'd search Tavvy, in the hopes of finding Taverly, but that person wouldn't find the page because the redirect is deleted!!! if you've never seen it being used, that dosn't mean it hasnt been used, its just managed to elude you. KEEP IT! Chef's hat.png Altarius95 The Master Cook! Talk to me Cooking cape (t).png

Strong undelete- It is an useful navigation aid. Please, for the better. (I'm not a member, so...) --ChelseaFan528 21:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC) "support" really guys this is pathetic does it really hurt anyone to have tavvy redirect to taverly i mean come on its not like oh if we add this we are all going to keel over and die. Plus it could be annoying for some people if they typed in "tavvy" and it was not found its just easier the only harm i could possibly see this do is make the wiki load .12342 slower KEEP it Rune scimitar old.pngLaguzianRune 2h sword.png

Comment - and question

Comment Instead of considering this one case alone, we should drop this for now and work out a general rule for all redirects. Then once that's settled, we can solve any disputes over whether "Tavvy" meets these criteria or not, if needed. It'll be easier to reach a consensus if we do it this way. Skill 23:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We need something to go by. We need to know exactly what goes and what can stay. Otherwise we just keep spinning our tires so to speak, and get nothing productive done. The problem with this is, who exactly gets to do that? I read this here also:

... ps I know camelot isnt a major place, but since its the most convienient teleport for reaching seers village and so many people think they are the same thing, we can let that swing, i call the place cammy after the teleport all the time, just in case someone tries to use that, thats the reason that ones allowed. Green partyhat.png Bob2006ty(RUNESTORM333)  talk Green partyhat.png 10:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC) You can't vote twice - Tesfan

...thats the reason that ones allowed. Who gets to pick what is allowed? Because it's obvious we all have different criteria in mind. Some we agree with, others - it's a whole different ballgame. --Momenator70 17:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Undelete A few things that needs to be pointed out: 1. Redirect pages are harmless. Reduced usage is not a valid rationale for deletion in the first place. 2. Even if pages become orphaned, it is common practice to keep that page there, as

Bandwidth usage is an insignificant issue.
The demand for that page will not be zero.
The lack of such a page shows the incompleteness of a wiki if any user happen to encounter the absence.

3. Pages are only to be deleted if they are:

Test Pages/Nonsense/Vandalism/Pages containing strong unbalanced POV
Redundancies/Black pages/Corrupt pages/Pages with misspelled titles/Transwikied articles
Copyright violations
Pure advertisement
Intended for Wiki Bug Abuse

4. Tavvy is used in game. Ironically, players are only informed of this due to this VfD/VfU. The publicity of the deletion of such a page made many players aware of it. Expert Dragon Archer hat.pngDoomedrusher|Talk||Contributions| 01:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment Well said Doomedrusher --Momenator70 05:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Doomedrusher, that's what I've been trying to say all along. Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk22:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, as obscure and useless as the redirect is, I think it should be kept. It doesn't slow the wiki down. This isn't something worth fighting over. --Themurasame Hiscores 05:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep deleted Lol people, this hopeless, ineffective arguing is the reason I left the Wiki a while ago.

I'd like this question answered: Why should we have the redirect? "It doesn't slow down the Wiki or anything" is not a suffiecient answer. It's not a matter of whether it clogs up the Wiki, no one gives a damn about that. Just like several other people here, I've never heard anyone use the term "Tavvy," either in-game or on the Forums. Just keep it the way it is. The person above me is right, this isn't something worth fighting over.  Tien  15:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd never heard the name 'tavvy' either before this Vfd, but to me, it's a *credible* nickname for Taverley - I can believe some people *might* use it. I can't say for certain that anyone actually does use it since I've never heard it myself, but then again I can't say that I know with complete certainty that absolutely no-one ever uses it either. Since I can't say either way, I'd rather have an unused redirect than have a potentially valid search term not represented in the wiki. A unused (but credible) redirect does no harm, but a missing search term means the reader might just go elsewhere to find their information. Pointy 16:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
"Tav" is much more credible, as it was actually used, and if anyone talks about how people would use the shorter version of a name, then "Tav" definitely overrides "Tavvy".
I also doubt that someone would leave just because they cannot look up "Tavvy". I'm pretty sure the other fansites do not list the names with shorthand outside of slang. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 17:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

These results do not surprise me. Bowman hat.pngTarikochi 15:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

For fuck's sake, this is the most pointless argument ever in the history of the world! Bloody decide something before I shoot you all! JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 20:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a redirect policy that no one has yet linked in this debate or the previous one. The relevant part of this policy states that alternate names can be used as redirects. When the Tavvy redirect was first created, many of us had never heard the term before. Assuming good faith, however, it seems reasonable to draw the conclusion that whoever made it (Chia?) did so at least with the belief that it was a legitimate alternate name. Certainly it is used at best sporadically, but it's pretty much impossible to prove that no one outside our editing community will ever utter the word. I'm going to go ahead and restore it on this basis. Obviously there'll be some criticism, but it at least hopefully ends this pointless debate over an insignificant issue.

In the future, it should be noted that VFU is not a place to appeal existing consensus. Rather, debates here should be started only if there is a belief that the deletion debate was closed incorrectly. Skill 23:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, don't get me started. *glares*
For the record, I love all of you. May be coloured blue in the near
Lol... *awkward*... manly love. I don't think Vimes reciprocates =). Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk22:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. No further edits should be made to this page.