The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it.
The result was keep
Bird's nest/Egg nest log
Important: For some reason the name does not display properly because it's a subpage. The page in question is [[Bird's_nest/Egg_nest_log]].
This is not what we are trying to log. We should log what is received from nests on the moment of their opening. This is relevant to seeds nests and ring nests. Only in this case the log will present any factual value. An egg nest visibly shows what it will give, and we can't log a "droprate" of nests because this is a completely different issue that possibly varies between nest sources.
Delete - As nominator. 5-x Talk 18:24, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
Strong oppose - See Forum:Bird's nest Loot Log where I discussed in favour of this; and today's chat logs (where-ever those are kept). IP188.8.131.52 (talk) 18:29, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I believe he's only talking about the egg nests, not the whole log in general. Suppa chuppa Talk 18:31, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I am aware, we just had a lengthy, and on his side heated, discussion about it in chat. IP184.108.40.206 (talk) 18:32, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. Are his claims true that you always receive the egg that is shown in the inventory icon? Suppa chuppa Talk 18:34, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with logging the outcomes of opening seeds nests and ring nests. What this log is trying to accomplish is to establish a "droprate" of nests that appear to players. We have no proof that such "droprate" is uniform across all nest sources. What really needs to be logged is when we open the ring/seed nests, because then is the moment where the seed/ring is decided. More can be found in this YG topic. 5-x Talk 18:35, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I hope you realize it's impossible for us to get a practical sample size without any significant bias for tree nests; so what you're complaining about is ludicrous. MolMan 18:59, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, that's why I insist so much on logging the loot (seeds/rings) you obtain from nests! And this is where the egg nest log becomes useless because each type of egg nests gives a specific egg. Logging the process of obtaining nests would be troublesome and accuracy of such log would be disputed. 5-x Talk 20:06, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand the problem at all then... It's just a log of the frequency of each egg for all nests that were eggs?... MolMan 20:08, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, what you describe is the log's form at the moment and that's the reason I want to delete it. The thing which is supposed to be logged ąre the chances for loot types from nests. And here: the chance for a red egg from a red egg nest is 100% and the chances for other eggs are zero. Similarly for all other egg nests. I repeat, it's the loot that is supposed to be logged, not some "droprate" for nest types as suggested by log creator. 5-x Talk 20:14, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, a nest with a green egg will always give you a green Bird's egg. However, that does, in my opinion, not make the distribution of the possible eggs-log redundant, bad or inaccurate. Pre the data gathered so far, there was no proof at all that all eggs were just as (un)common (rare) as the other variants. Now we can conclude they sort-of are, even if I'd rather have more data before calling that a fact. Also, strictly, he only requests the egg log deleted, but by the same arguments he gives, he should also request the nest type distribution log deleted. And I see that as very relevant information. IP220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:38, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't want to log the types of nests that appear to you, I want to log what you get from nests. Isn't that the more sensible thing to do? Nests aren't monster-like drops. They are more like a crystal chest which you open and have a chance for some loot, and every loot has its percentage chance. That's why the egg nests don't have to be logged because it's obvious what you get from them. Also, thanks for fixing the request page name, something wasn't quite right with it. 5-x Talk 18:43, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I definitely do want to log the chance of getting each type of nest. This data clearly shows how much rarer it is to get an egg nest than to get a seed or ring nest, for example. IP18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:50, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
Keep - If the logs are to be kept, they should allow logging of all relevant raw data. Raw data can always be ignored at a later date, but cannot be recreated if it was not logged. Qloque (talk) 19:43, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Have you actually read my reasoning/the comments here and the comments in the preceding forum topic? The way data is gathered for the logs at the moment makes their accuracy poor, at most. 5-x Talk 20:00, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I read the entire forum topic. My response here was short because I see no point in repeating positions already stated on the forum, but I largely agree with IP22.214.171.124's arguments.
- You are interested only in the two questions from your comment at 14:17, May 18, 2013 (UTC). A complete log allows the seed and nest probabilities in which you are interested to be extracted—how does it hurt to also collect egg nest data? You argue (although I disagree) that it is without value, but not that it corrupts the seed and ring results. Qloque (talk) 20:16, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- So you suggest that the rings and seed tables should log the loot from nests and the egg table should display the following~: "if I get any nest with egg in it, what's the chance that it will be a particular egg nest?" The first thing is a log of loots, the second is a log of something similar to a "droprate". Two completely different concepts. But in their current forms the seeds/rings logs are fine! The problems comes from the fact that there's no such thing as a universal "egg nest". All egg nests are different items (4 of them), while seeds nests/rings nests form 1 stack each. Thus we can have a seed nest loot log and a ring nest loot log, but not an egg nest log. I hope you understand now. 5-x Talk 20:28, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- You keep assuming that the only question of interest to you is the only question of interest to anyone: Given that I know the nest type, what will the nest yield?
- Here's another question: I currently have 223 nests sitting unseen in Ghrim's storerooms. What is the expected number of egg nests? Qloque (talk) 20:42, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- And this is where a very important question appears: are the ratios between seed/ring/various egg nest identical in the Kingdom and while woodcutting? Are they even the same between different types of trees? And what about maples in Kingdom vs mahoganies in Kingdom? Not to mention the effect of Rabbit foot's necklace... Don't get me wrong, having some known universal "droprates" for all nests would be nice, but there's (in my opinion) too much uncertainty to set up this type of log, therefore focusing on loots only is worth it and will yield concrete results. This is where I'm coming from. 5-x Talk 20:51, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
- If the distributions are identical across all gathering methods, then a complete all-in-one log will (over time) converge on that distribution (i.e., will be helpful). If different gathering methods have different distributions, the nest egg portions of the log may fail to be helpful, but will also not be harmful.
- My suspicion is that the distributions are identical (or nearly so), based on logs I kept on about 8000 nests (split roughly 90% from maples on Miscellania, and 10% from willows and oaks) some years ago (pre-raven egg). [They were all contributed towards an RSOF thread keeping similar logs, which may or may not still exist.] There is an overall ratio which—in practice—will be strongly weighted towards the Miscellania maples distribution (if distinct) anyway. Qloque (talk) 21:45, May 29, 2013 (UTC)
Keep - The discussion did not specify which method of collecting bird' nest data would be implemented. Temujin 14:56, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
- The method should have been discussed prior to creation of the log. Somehow this has been omitted. 5-x Talk 20:18, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
- The manner in which the data will be logged should be agreed upon before anything is deleted. Temujin 10:31, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
- I have an interest in logging both; but unlike Regis' argument on the matter I see no reason why the ratio of nests should differ from one tree to the next; just like normal gems don't from Mining, to my knowledge. IP126.96.36.199 (talk) 11:26, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
Strong keep - Nothing on that page is unnecessary, nor is it harming anything. Some players might be interested to know the probability of getting a certain egg from a nest, such as if they wanted a certain cockatrice variant or a god bird for GWD protection. There are too many potential applications of this data for it to be deleted solely because you can see the contents. Hey, while we're at it, let's remove the 100% drops from monster pages, and the end rewards from quests! After all, it's guaranteed, who cares? Real Crazy 16:10, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if you understand the difference between logging the process of obtaining nests and logging the contents of nests, the difference which in fact is the key to this entire discussion. 5-x Talk 20:18, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
- Erm, so you're saying that nests differ from tree to tree. Okay, let's consider the implications of this - we would need separate logs for every variant of tree in the entire game (so 20 different logs, 30 if you count fruit and special Farming trees), each one would have 3 nest logs for seeds, rings and eggs, so we'd be looking at potentially starting up 90 new logs, with absolutely no way to check submissions for vandalism, since we have absolutely no way to do a rough check on the rates of seeds from every single tree in the game. Also, let's consider something else. Seed nests from willow trees stack in the bank or while noted with seed nests from Miscellania, seed nests from Mahogany trees, and seed nests from Arctic Pine. Now then, if the seed rates were different, how does the game track this? Consider that Wyson's nests look visually identical, but occupy a separate bank slot, since they have different drops. If it were possible to track the source of the nests, every tree would use a separate slot, and there would likely be examine info along the lines of "A nest found in a willow tree" or similar, not a generic message like there is right now. Before making accusations about the accuracy of the data in the project, I suggest testing your assumptions yourself, instead of thrusting them at us and claiming it's now our job to test them.
- On a more related note, this discussion is about the deletion of the egg logs and I have not seen a single good reason to remove the egg logs. This is devolving into a discussion on the accuracy of the nest logging project and if having the project refurbished is your aim then the Yew Grove is a more appropriate place than an RfD, unless you plan on nominating [[:Category:Nest logs]] and its contents for deletion as well. Real Crazy 14:18, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe there was a slight misunderstanding here; Regis' point is that the rate of getting a seed/ring/(one of the variants of an )egg nest differs per tree type; not that the content of the nests would be somehow different based on its source (with the exception of Wyson's nests). This would be similar to how each monsters drops summoning charms at a different rate, but they are still the same items. (That said, I understand Regis' point, but do not concur that the rates would differ per tree type). IP188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:03, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
- Mk, still no evidence of differing rates exists. Perhaps Regis would like to prove us wrong through his own research? If not then there is no basis for his differing nest rate theory. 184.108.40.206 15:14, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
Comment - Almost a week has passed and all I can see is the support for the nest log in its current form. I still think the premises on which the method of gathering data is based are false, but I won't protest further. Sorry for causing trouble, IP220.127.116.11. At least I know you understand my point now (and I hope others do as well). Can I request this to be closed somehow? 5-x Talk 13:43, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
Closed - Nominator withdrew. Suppa chuppa Talk 19:39, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. No further edits should be made to this page.