Forum:Wiki changes

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This thread was archived on 8 August 2010 by Aburnett.

So, this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, but after seeing some talk in the shoutbox recently I felt moved to propose it. Basically, I've been noticing that whenever we make decisions around here, we base our actions off the preferences of the contributing members of our community. I hate to say it, but that's not the right thing to be doing in a number of situations. We have a much larger audience that visits us each and every day, not editing at all, or just editing a little bit. The biggest issue, for me at least, is the custom skin. To put it bluntly , we are the only large wiki that I know of without a custom skin. Why? Because the people deciding on skinning the site are editors, who are not here just here for a visit, but here to contribute. They don't want to be distracted, they want to work. But what of those visiting us? I bet most people visiting our site would like to see us have a custom skin, but they never have the opportunity to voice their opinions.

With this in mind, I'm proposing that we survey our visitors over the next few weeks to find out what they really want. Sure, Some of the answers will be garbage, but at least we might get a general idea of what our visitors want. If we add a link to the homepage and the anonn notice, I'm sure we cold get some pretty solid data. This is my only proposal at this time. After we run this survey for a while (if approved), I would like to use this topic to discuss the data and possibly implement some changes to make our wiki more friendly to our visitors.

I drafted up some survey questions, see them at User:Aburnett/Survey. Feel free to modify it.

Yep. --Aburnett(Talk) 16:44, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


Strong Support - Why didn't I think of this? Great idea; you are 100% right :) ajr 16:47, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Support - This sounds like a good idea to have. Make sure we are getting the support of not only our active contributors, but our viewers. ~MuzTalk 16:55, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Support - It's better for the wiki, if we actually do what the entire community wants it will attract more visitors and the wiki will only look nicer, and so on. Can't agree more. Also, please note that wiki polls are éxtremely easy to manipulate (with for example proxies), so be careful with them. (For example, even without a proxy you can vote twice, by being logged in and out). Mark (talk) 17:20, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - So in short, you're suggesting we use the most easily manipulated system on the wiki to determine important changes? While I'm not particularly enthralled by either side of this, I personally think that such a system open to corruption is just an accident waiting to happen.--

Helm of neitiznot (charged).png Azaz129 Crystal shield.png Talk Edits Contribs

17:35, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

The fact that we are polling our visitors will not override the fact that our community makes decisions based on consensus. I would simply like to use the data gathered from our poll as part of a discussion on possible changes we could make. I'm also aware of the vulnerability of the built-in polling system, and I was considering using something off-site such as SurveyMonkey. The suggestions below that we could use other, more secure polling extensions look more promising however. --Aburnett(Talk) 16:17, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - It's just a draft. I think the best option would be to either use an external survey site or create a list that requires one to edit the page and leave a signature. Mark (talk) 17:38, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - As long as I get to stay in my sheltered world here without change, I'd be fine with it. But like Mark said, let's do something where it's not quite as manipulate-able. HaloTalk 17:49, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - There are a whole raft of MediaWiki extensions that we could use, however, none are enabled on Wikia :S - I agree that we should use an external poll site. Even Google would work :) ajr 17:57, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

I was goofing around on Google Docs, using the poll idea on there. Turns out, you can vote as many times as you want. Unless if it works differently due to being the creator, Google would be out of the question. ~MuzTalk 18:15, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
Orly? Scratch that, then. ajr 18:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Did some searching: [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:SecurePoll]] or [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:VoteSystem]] perhaps? Used by Wikipedia. Mark (talk) 19:54, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Love SecurePoll, never heard of the other before O_O. Either way, we can't use them, since Wikia doesn't support either at the moment. ajr 19:58, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
If we get consensus on this, Wikia will. Mark (talk) 20:01, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
Seriously? That hasn't happened in my experience... But I'll take you're word for it, since you are a helper and all ;) ajr 20:03, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
This sounds ideal to me. --Aburnett(Talk) 16:17, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Support - I like everything aborut this idea, per everyone.--Cheers, Off-hand ascension crossbow.pngYodaAscension crossbow.png 20:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

SecurePoll is a no-go as it has no creation page, meaning we have to edit the code for new polls. Mark (talk) 16:33, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Support and comment - I like the idea, but the reason we have never been able to decide on a custom skin/logo is because every time we try to, everyone has to submit their own idea, so we end up with 50 different options. Andrew talk 21:45, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Perhaps # skins max, or force people to choose for one of the current skins. Mark (talk) 21:49, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

I like limiting the skin submisions to the current ones, found at RS:THEME. People could always lobby to make some chages to the skins found there if none of them seem satisfactory. --Aburnett(Talk) 16:17, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Support - This is exactly what I proposed in Forum:Feedback system. Why that got so few supports, and why this has so many supports, I do not know, but whichever thread it is on, this is a good idea. We don't make the content for us, the editors, we make the content for the viewers, and they should have a say in what content they want. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 22:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Ted.   Swizz Talk   Events!   08:40, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Support - That's a great idea as the editors are the biggest minority and really this wiki is for the IP's who visit the wiki.Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 10:37, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per all. My only fear here is, as Soldier said, that it will be difficult to achieve consensus on this issue no matter how few options we present. I don't like the idea, but we may have to break with RS:NOT#DEMOCRACY for this issue for that reason. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 11:43, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per all. The survey questions are excellent.  Tien  16:42, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Also, perhaps add a link to the survey as soon as it's not a draft anymore in the sidebar? With a different colour or something like that? Mark (talk) 17:47, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Or we could add it to the Sitenotice and {{News}}. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 20:40, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Question - About themes: Is there a way someone can use a theme without creating a page? Like what runehq used to have, a few swatches of colours to choose from, click one and the page would reload with a different colour scheme. Is this in anyway possible? Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 20:52, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, using the Gadgets extension. Mark (talk) 21:03, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I have been meaning to do something like this for ages. I think that it will be really useful. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 06:08, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I've done some digging and I think [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:VoteSystem]] would be the best option. It adds a special page, allows text fields and shows usersnames of the users who added it. If nobody has any objections, I'll request it to be added, and we can begin setting up a survey. Mark (talk) 18:36, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick (stupid) question, will IPs be able to vote? --Aburnett(Talk) 19:19, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
As far as I know, yes. Though I'm not sure. However, if it won't allow IPs to vote, we can change the code so that IPs will be able to vote, and just add an extra textfield that asks for the IP, and refer the user to w:c:community:Special:WhatIsMyIp. Mark (talk) 19:25, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, they can: "Users who have the right to edit wiki-pages, also have access to this page." Mark (talk) 19:27, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
Awesome, lets install it ASAP! --Aburnett(Talk) 19:31, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support - sounds like a good idea, but I would remove the following questions:

  • How would you rate the depth and completeness of information included on the RuneScape Wiki?
  • How would you rate the images and animations included on the RuneScape Wiki?
  • How would you rate the average page layout on the RuneScape Wiki?
  • The skin and logo questions

The first three should be removed because the page layout, information depth, and image quality varies widely from page to page. This extreme variation renders any input we get from these questions statistically useless, unless there's a place provided for them to link an article they particularly like or dislike as relating to the question. The skin and logo should be scrapped because of the custom themes already present at RS:THEME. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 19:40, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

I feel the skin/logo questions are the most important. I doubt that any IPs have checked RS:THEME and customized their skin. Also, I understand your point about variations between articles, but I still think It's important for us to get some data on the actual encyclopedia we're writing. Although it varies greatly from article to article, if people think our info is on the whole bad, or on the whole good, It's important to know. --Aburnett(Talk) 20:00, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
And, with enough support, a custom theme could also be set as default, and we can move Sapphire to RS:THEME. Mark (talk) 20:06, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
Allright, a ticket has been filed and the extension should get enabled this week. Mark (talk) 22:15, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I'm sorry, Aburnett, but I just can't support this proposal. While I realize that this survey is not going to be a referendum, so RS:NOT#DEMOCRACY doesn't quite apply, I still see a lot issues with the survey. For one thing, many of the questions simply do not apply to unregistered users. One question asks about our efficacy in dealing with vandalism. If the unregistered users consistently witness vandalism, then either they are over-observent or we have the crappiest antivandal measures in the world. Vandalism is mostly hidden from IP's. Furthermore, the answers could easily be skewed by determined vandals, so that we may perceive a large majority in favor of one position, when in fact it is not the view of the community nor its visitors. We may then base a future decision on that, doing the community a great disservice. My position on the specific issue presented in this discussion (namely that of skins) is that the default sapphire skin offends/annoys the least number of people, and as such is the most neutral and most conservative skin that we can use, so we should stick with it. --LiquidTalk 01:31, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

It is true that trolls might give false answers. Though this will not happen a lot, as that's simply not the behaviour of trolls. Also, every user has to give an IP/username, so we are always able to visit the talkpage of an user and ask "Why?". About the skin issue; if the majority of the community prefers a different skin, then it is always possible to move the Sapphire skin to RS:THEME and notify all users (easily do-able using Help:Talk Page Messaging, or even using a simple interface (Forum:Use of "Gadgets"). So it's best to see what the community's opinion is as that is what this is about: ask the éntire community what théy want for the wiki, not just active users. Your position is that it offends/annoys the least number of people though that could easily be a false statement. Mark (talk) 13:25, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to add that the results of the "poll/forum/whatever this thing is" would not (or should not) be the sole basis of changes, and obviously we would seek the opinion and arguments of editors and contributors to the Yew Grove. It just gives us an idea, and can hardly hurt us at all. Chicken7 >talk 06:40, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - VoteSystem has been delayed a bit; it'll probably be enabled Friday/Saturday. Mark (talk) 14:21, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Let's place a link to the survey on the News Template, as I don't think we make much use of the "site wide Site Notice" rather then we do the "logged in Site Notice", which won't target visitors anyways.

Bonziiznob Talk

15:46, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

[[MediaWiki:Anonnotice]]? Anyway, not everyone visits/reads the mainpage (but I can't verify that). Ryan PM 00:55, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Hi guys. I come bearing bad news. Upon a deeper review by the technical team, the 'VoteSystem' extension isnt going to work and wont be enabled here. Its very rough code, and not superbly well written. In addition, it does some technical things that just wont work on Wikia multi-database, multi-machine system (like creating local temp files, and deleting them). Someone suggested you try an external survey solution (something like as just a random solution that Wikia has used in the past) This request has gotten us thinking about if there is a large enough need by wikis (like you) and also Wikia its self for putting some work into building a proper voting/survey system inhouse, that would be upto our standards. I'm going to take a look at this page in detail and see what issues were brought up for not using the polls we have now and take notes back to the powers that be. It wont be anytime soon mind you, but this may have sparked something awesome happening in the future. Sorry again. --Uberfuzzy<staff /> 22:20, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Aw, this would have been good if it had been bundled with w:c:community:User blog:Sarah Manley/Paving the way to Wikia's future|the paving the way to Wikia's future or any of the other w:c:community:Blog:Wikia Staff Blog|Staff Blog's. Ryan PM 00:55, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Oh no! Frown Back to the initial proposal then, I suggest we just use the current voting system. Sure, It's by no means perfect, But its good enough for our purposes. All were looking for is a rough idea of what people think. --Aburnett(Talk) 01:36, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Can I just say this; I Support your idea, but I doubts the current poll system will serve our needs well enough. A rough idea, how rough? If we decide to be cautious, but the results aren't obvious; then probably no action will be taken. IF we are brave, but our results have been compromised, then any actions we take might damage ourselves. Just emphasising: I support this proposal, but doubt the mechanisms used to deliver it. 222 talk 06:55, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

If we are not going to be using an extension, I recommend we go back to the external option, for the reasons Azaz mentioned. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 11:49, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Didn't I propose this like 2 years ago and there was HEAPS of support but in the end it never happened? --Gold ore.png Mercifull UK serv.svg (Talk) 10:52, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


Alright, I threw together a test survey and it seems to be a good choice. Check it out here. I'm suggesting we use this to collect survey data. --Aburnett(Talk) 22:13, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Aburnett(Talk) 22:13, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Even though it's external, it should do the job. Testing it right now. Mark (talk) 22:21, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yay! One vote per IP. Mark (talk) 22:22, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Cool beans. Andrew talk 22:34, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Slight support - There's a way around the one vote, but I doubt anyone would want to do it to manipulate the votes. But, this does seem like the best way to do something like this, due to the extension not being able to be installed. ~MuzTalk 22:37, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

What is the way around? It might me a mistake on my part, as there were a lot of settings to figure out... --Aburnett(Talk) 22:39, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
I think that the survey taken is stored in a cookie, by clearing cookies, you are able to take it again. ~MuzTalk 22:41, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
Frown. Just deleted my SurveyMonkey cookies and now I'm able to vote again. Well, let's just hope nobody will abuse this. (IP manipulation isn't avoidable, though cookies are). Mark (talk) 22:43, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
Also, I think it would be best to add a required "Username" or "IP address" box. Even though these can still be manipulated... Mark (talk) 22:45, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
Each survey response logs the IP address of the visitor ([1]), so we can simply look for duplicate IP's and remove any suspect submissions. We can also cross reference the IPs we collect with current vandals etc. if we suspect issues. Yay! --Aburnett(Talk) 22:49, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
Yay! Mark (talk) 22:50, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, that looks like it will work out then. Now, I fully support. ~MuzTalk 22:59, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Support - It's trusted by many an allows the ability to remove suspected multi-votes. What's not to love about this (Minus an in-house solution)? Ryan PM 23:27, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Sounds good to me. HaloTalk 23:42, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Look good. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 00:20, July 22, 2010 (UTC) 

Support - Per all. But there is one issue, I have a friend who knows how to use proxys or something to disguise your IP as another one. A really bored/desperate guy might use this. Its unlikely it will happen but just telling you all. 222 talk 06:19, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

You don't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to use proxies. But from what is described above, I don't think it would be an issue. If you get a large number of hits with the same poll answers, from a similar range of IPs in a very short amount of time, we would know something is up. HaloTalk 06:23, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
-.- --Aburnett(Talk) 21:32, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
"from a similar range of IPs" - Proxies don't need to be in a similar IP range. However, I think that proxy abuse will likely be minimal anyways. I have successfully accessed and submitted the example survey from two open proxies, however I would like to add that I was unable to select checkboxes or radio buttons from either (though I could still enter text in the text field). I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 00:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC) 

Support - Per all, it's trustable. Quest point cape detail.png Brux Talk 19:50, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Final tidbits

OK, the survey support seems to be going in the right direction so I want to get some consensus on link placement and get this thing rolling.

  1. [[MediaWiki:Anonnotice]]: I would like to have the new anonnnotice look like this:
Welcome to the RuneScape Wiki! Create an account and join the community!

The RuneScape Wiki would like your feedback! [[Runescape:Survey|Click here]] to take a quick survey!
  1. RS:SIDEBAR: I would like to add a link to the bottom of the sidebar, (preferably in a different color) linking to the survey.

Finally, I would like to create [[Runescape:Survey]], which will serve as a sort of directory/explanation page. unfortunately SurveyMonkey limits free surveys to 10 questions per, so we are going to have to break it into 2 separate surveys, one about usage statistics, and the other about user experience. I know it's not ideal, but it's really our only option. --Aburnett(Talk) 21:53, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Support - let's do this dance. --Aburnett(Talk) 21:53, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Support - How do we plan to make the sidebar a different colour (and I am talking about the box the word is in, not the text itself)? Of course, we could highlight the link via MWI:C.CSS. I would also add a link to the survey in the sitenotice or make a note of it on the main page. I don't like the idea of using Annonnotice, though I don't see any other options. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 22:55, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I think that's how it's done, I got the idea from --Aburnett(Talk) 04:29, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
Found the strip of code used to make the help forum colour yellow on their sidebar.
#navigation a[href=""],
#navigation a[href=""] + DIV A {
   color: black !important;
   background-color: #ecdf1e !important;

Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 12:04, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Support on one condition - I am terrible at dancing, please don't make me. ajr 22:56, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Ajrabbitz. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 00:15, July 23, 2010 (UTC) 

Support - Great. This is exactly what I wanted, it works nicely. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 03:17, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Weak support - The Anonnotice is alright, but another link on the sidebar is on the borderline. If you are going to colour it, make it fairly faint. It is easily achievable. Chicken7 >talk 06:28, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I plan on faint coloration, something like this, this, or this. --Aburnett(Talk) 15:39, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
Also, this will only run for ~2 weeks, so it wont clutter up our sidebar for long. --Aburnett(Talk) 15:40, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

ʇɹoddns - Collecting input is good. I have my doubts as to how useful the input will be, but its better to try than not try. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 06:33, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

How'd you do that? 222 talk 06:44, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
There are unicode upside-down characters. Chicken7 >talk 06:47, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Support - If you put it on the sidebar can you find a way to put it below it where there are all the blue links like upload pics, special pages ect. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 06:45, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

That's MediaWiki:Monaco-toolbox, which is more for things related to maintenance and editing. Chicken7 >talk 06:49, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
Isn't this kinda maintenance? Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 11:26, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Can you change "wants" to "would like"? Just a bit more friendlier. 222 talk 23:41, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Sure Wink --Aburnett(Talk) 15:12, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Notice of Intent - I have drafted up the final questions, go see them from [[RuneScape:Survey]]</nowiki<. If you want me to make changes, please suggest them ASAP, as I am looking to get the survey going by the end of the weekend. --{{Signatures/Aburnett}} 15:56, July 24, 2010 (UTC) :Survey is live, yall {{(h)}} --{{Signatures/Aburnett}} 19:43, July 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Meh, I voted. Also, do you mind if I wrote l33t st00fs in comment part? {{=P}} {{Signatures/Chessmaster}} 20:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC) :::Go ahead, but be warned, [[User:Rwojy|some of us]] may use it to blackmail you for [email protected]@@@ {{Signatures/Rwojy}} 20:31, July 26, 2010 (UTC) '''Problem''' I see no anon notice. Wasn't it created already? [[Special:Contributions/|]] 21:05, July 26, 2010 (UTC) :I logged out, and I saw the notice. It's in the top-right portion, under the "Welcome to RuneScape Wiki" notice. Maybe your cache still needs to update. {{Signatures/Muzzy34}} 02:05, July 27, 2010 (UTC) == OMGWTFBBQ == Really. --{{Signatures/Aburnett}} 16:27, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :Oh my god I HATE it when sites hide details like this under page after page. This is a serious problem. --{{Signatures/Aburnett}} 16:30, July 27, 2010 (UTC) ::Hmm... Cry? {{Signatures/Rwojy}} 16:44, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :::I nominate wojwoj to pay for this. {{User:Ajraddatz/sig}} 18:56, July 27, 2010 (UTC) '''Whaaaaaat?''' We can only use the first 100 responses as data if you do not upgrade?--[[User:Degenret01|Degenret01]] 16:55, July 27, 2010 (UTC) So I guess it's back to the drawing board...{{User:Haloolah123/Sig}} 16:59, July 27, 2010 (UTC) '''Whew''' - Google delivers with Check out the new survey at <nowiki>[[RuneScape:Survey]], it looks even better! --Aburnett(Talk) 17:19, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Very nice. Just one minor thing though, move the username above comments, it looks out of place where it is. ZSNBucket detail.pngrwojy 17:23, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
Done with Heart --Aburnett(Talk) 17:26, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
Doing the Survey now... Been busy lately. One thing: Could the title of the survey please be changed to RuneScape? Btw, nice survey. Mark (talk) 22:56, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
</rookie mistake> --Aburnett(Talk) 00:34, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
Done the Survey, really find it cool. I think the colors are cool and I like how it doesn't close your page or put another tab (as if I didn't have enough already!). For the skin though, I think that there should be a few options. The most popular one would be the default, and it could be changed for account/IP if one doesn't like it. I also would like for the old (the current theme) to still be available. Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 01:01, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

When will we know the results? :3 --Iiii I I I 01:10, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Everything will be made public at the end of the 2 weeks this survey is running for. The results can also be accessed via a password protected page, if any admins want to see the results ahead of time they can contact me for a link/password via IRC. --Aburnett(Talk) 01:12, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
So impatient nubz like me cant check it? D: bad_fetustalk 11:32, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
gtfo ur nawt admeanie leik uz Chicken7 >talk 12:03, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - Survey has been successfully implemented. The data gathered will be discussed at Forum:Wiki changes 2 when it becomes available. --Aburnett(Talk) 04:42, August 8, 2010 (UTC)