Forum:User hilite legend

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This thread was archived on 1 March 2011 by Degenret01.

Previous threads on hilites:

In only one of the previous proposals has anyone suggested a user key, user legend, or hilite key as it may be . There has been opposition outside and within the users who have the appropriate group rights to continue usage of hilites. In the previous threads to remove such hilites has met with the assumption that they are "helpful to new users" when we don't have more than a section on "Access types" in RuneScape:Administrators.

What I am proposing is that we change MediaWiki:Recentchanges-label-legend from:

Legend: $1.

To this redesigned page as seen [[W:C:RPM:MediaWiki:Recentchanges-label-legend|here]]:

Edit legend: $1. <br />
<div style="class:mw-rc-legend-user">[https://runescape.wiki/w/RuneScape:Administrators#Access_types User legend]: <span style="color:#22CC00">'''Administrator'''</span>, <span style="color:#66AAFF">'''Bureaucrat'''</span>, <span style="color:DarkGoldenrod">'''Helper'''</span>, <span style="color:#ddaa00">'''Wikia Staff'''</span></div>

Now the other side to this is if this isn't supported, my question is why do we keep hilites if we don't want to tell or show users what the colours stand for? We know that your group rights don't affect anything in an argument, but the strength of it, but new users might not know this (once again, assuming things). There are times when users think it's a privilege, other times when they want to appeal to a higher authority, both of which are wrong.

I have started this thread with the former in-mind and by the changing of All editors are equal to Status and opinion-weight. I leave this question to you, "Should you not want a hilite key, what do you get out of having hilites, whether you have one now or not?"

Discussion[edit source]

Comment - As proposing this, I am not supporting adding the key nor the removal of hilites, yet. Even though I adamantly supported the removal, I want to see the reaction of users without putting this on the Administrative requests project page with the essay of being bold. Ryan PM 03:33, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Add all except bot/AWB - New users shouldn't see the bot/AWB edits, so I think that including them will confuse them more than help them. By the time they know what bot/AWB edits are, they'll naturally recognize the colors. --LiquidTalk 03:36, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, done plus added class for User legend if users want to hide it in their CSS. Ryan PM 23:46, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - Some of us have custom colours for user groups (I still have pink for helpers), so instead can we add classes to those instead of the hex colour code and add the classes to the respective groups on [[MediaWiki:Wikia.css/hilite]]? Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 05:40, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

ID's are being stuffed into the MediaWiki namespace all the time these days.... But sure, why not? While we are at it, add an id for the User legend to allow people to hide that bit of mw-rc-label-legend. However, no one said we are going to add this any time soon (least of all not for seven days at the least). Ryan PM 06:41, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
I said classes (class="example"). Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 06:48, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
It's late at night and I can't read for the life of me. Okay, so an ID is unique and can only be used once on a page and in said element (wouldn't work to well if we had all admins this way... I think I see now) and classes can be used multiple times and multiple times within the same element. I'll try not sleeping and editing from now on. Ryan PM 08:11, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
I would try to, but my test wiki isn't working right and refuses to load any site-specific CSS or JS for that matter that isn't in the userspace/global. Ryan PM 23:46, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Support all - Sugesstion: Add a link to H:UAL, so that people that don't know what the groups mean, can find out. Real Mad 08:53, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

"This text is stored on Wikia Help" - it's a transclusion. Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 20:35, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
RS:ADMIN#Access types is a better one than using the Help Wiki. Ryan PM

Support - All minus bot, per liquid. I am slightly concerned about how much space this will take up on the recent changes however. Aburnett(Talk) 20:38, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

It's an additional line, 12px font and some padding. That's it. Nothing to worry over. Ryan PM 23:46, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Support - All except bot/awb and Staff. Staff aren't the users people should look to for help on local matters, and the bot/awb per liquid. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 21:59, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Staff need love too. But still, they might need to be called on from time to time. Ryan PM 23:46, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I'd remove the Bot colors though, since new users don't really need to worry about them. Otherwise, I love this idea. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 23:36, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

what? Sorry I don't speak computer speak, can you please state what will happen if you implement these changes? In idiot terms? thanks.--Degenret01 00:19, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

It adds the following to the Recent Changes special page:
User legend: Administrator, Bureaucrat, Helper, Wikia Staff
as there isn't one already (Unless we count RS:FAQ, but I only just heard of this page in IRC a few hours ago) right under the current "Legend" on the RC. However, I put this here instead of RS:AR as not everyone might agree with it. Ryan PM 01:32, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose totally People who know what all the titles mean will know who to ask for what. People who do not know will just think that there is something special about the glowing names because they have cool titles also. It will have them going to thew wrong place to seek help. Instead of a legend, make the links to user help and admin help appear bigger and bolder to be more helpful to the people that need it. Let us not use more space to tell everyone how important sysops are. There is enough of that.--Degenret01 05:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Then my question to you is, why have the hilites when we don't tell users what they mean? There is no point in them if we can't do that much. Just having a coloured name in general already would make users think that they have meaning. Albeit I would rather see the removal of the hilites entirely, without a legend or key, there isn't much point in the to begin with. Ryan PM 06:26, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
We have them because show offs refuse to give them up, to answer your first question. Everyone supporting is continuing to ignore the very real fact that people scanning RC should NOT be looking to contact an admin that way, as you never know if they have made their final edit of the day. --Degenret01 15:41, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
When I was new, I had no idea what a green or purple hilite meant, and didn't know about H:UAL either. I really don't think that every single admin on this wiki is using a green name as a symbol of power, or is using it to show off to others - not once have I seen a sysop taunting another user by saying "LOL I have a green name". If people don't want a hilite, they have every right to request its removal, as several have done, but they shouldn't stop others who do want them, from having them. As far as I can see, the only thing backing up the argument of "people show off about them" is the old AEAE policy, but since it became RS:SOW, that's redundant. You don't like them, that's fine, but don't accuse everyone else of using them wrongly. Real Mad 16:10, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
Examples please. --クールネシトーク 02:11, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Support all - Good place to put it and can't hurt. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 06:23, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose all - Per degen, and while you're at it lets remove hilites completely and put more links to admin requests and the cvu. Ajraddatz 16:15, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Degen. Making user and admin help links more noticeable would be really beneficial. I had no idea where to turn to for help when I first started. Suppa chuppa Talk 19:14, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Support - All but bot. What I have to say, Degen (and per's), is that you may have noticed something, but I sure as hell haven't. Simple colors on a link do not hurt anyone physically nor mentally. --クールネシトーク 02:11, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose all - Per Degen and Ajr. HaloTalk 06:11, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Degen, I also think that most people who know what the RecentChanges is knows about hilites. ʞooɔ 09:47, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Not everyone does, though. Real Mad 20:15, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
People-who-do-not-know count: 1. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 23:25, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
If it helps that one person, then it helps. Real Mad 16:54, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

Oh its an admin!!! - One thing that I neglected to mention earlier and I feel is entirely on the mark is, so what? How does a new person knowing what that color means help them? It will not. Many new people will be under the false impression that perhaps admins are special or different, or that 'crats are, or whatever. As new people, they will most likely be unaware of what that really means. Listing their titles will not help these people. So. So what if now they know that green is an admin or that 'crats are blue? This in no way helps that person out. So it is pointless. Whereas, as stated before, much bigger bolder stronger (maybe even hilited =D links to the admin help and user help pages will actually help the people, which is what the supporters say they want to do. Direct them to that help. Not to a flashy name.--Degenret01 11:32, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

I feel like I should point out that the "admins are equal to regular users" argument went out of the window when RS:AEAE became RS:SOW. Their opinion doesn't count for more in discussions, but that's as far as you'll get using that argument. Real Mad 12:23, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
So admins are better than others now? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 20:18, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but why is that the case? Just because the name changed from "all editors are equal" to "status opinion weight" or whatever doesn't mean that users now have more or less "power" than others, does it? Suppa chuppa Talk 20:19, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
There's no polices or essays saying otherwise, other than perhaps the Not a big deal bit somewhere on the RfA page. Real Mad 20:20, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
Do you really think admins are better than other people on this wiki? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 21:18, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
They are more trusted, and have access to a larger array of tools, but I wouldn't say they're better than everyone else. Degen's reasoning is that admins are equal to regular users, and the only thing that would back that up would be AEAE. True, most of the things admins can do, regular users can do too, but that alone isn't really enough to oppose adding about 10 words to the RC. It will help the people that don't know what hilites mean; their purpose is defeated if people don't know what they mean. Real Mad 22:08, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
Once again. If they are so new that they do not know what the colors mean, then knowing their titles will not help them at all in any way at all whatsoever. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada. I did not even once say AEAE, so stop refuting an argument I am not making. --Degenret01 22:37, February 6, 2011 (UTC)
Other wikis do not have a hilite legend, although they do have sysop/crat groups. Real Mad 16:54, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I don't understand what it is with this community and the hating of having hilites/ranks/titles/proof of status or achievements... sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 17:19, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Per Degen. Also, when new users are welcomed, the template often has a link to the welcomer's talk page. It's an option for newbies who wish to ask individual users for help.  Tien  18:56, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - Ideally, users would ask help in places where help is intended to be asked, and they would ask of those who offer to answer, not on a randomly green user's talk page, and not with the uncertainty of speedy reply, the latter of which I assume, through recent discussions of checkuser rights, is rather important to some and contradictorily unimportant at the same time, or perhaps helping users isn't as important to us as uprooting sockpuppetry. Despite what I consider to be the obvious benefit of utilizing the pages where help is intended to be asked and asking of those who offer to answer, I personally find it useless to attempt asserting the role and responsibility of those granted administrator and bureaucrat rights, as users will always irrationally attribute some sort of educational responsibility to administrators and bureaucrats, but what elicited my response on yet another argument of logic versus opinion is the above-posted comment, that helping one user is all that matters, to which I would respond that the real response to this supposed support of username highlights should be, "Did that user actually need help, or was he inspired to ask that obviously important guy why he has a cool, green name?" Leftiness 20:03, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

The point of a legend is to tell people what they mean. He wasn't looking for help, he was just one of very few people who actually ask when they're curious about something. We have the hilites to identify sysops, if people need to ask what the hilites mean, it defeats the purpose of having them, and I see no reason to remove them, they're fine how they are. Real Mad 20:17, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
I'm against highlights, naturally making me against a legend of highlights, particularly because there's no reason to tell people what highlights mean because there's no reason to have highlights. Personally, I've never seen a new user ask for an administrator's help on a talk page because he's in need of an administrator's help, though I have seen established users ask for an administrator's help on a talk page because they trust that user's opinion, and I finally found the perfect example of a new user thinking green names are important, which you've pushed off with what is in my interpretation a synonymous statement, that he's "curious" about it. I'm not against asking someone trusted for help, but I am against trusting someone because he's an administrator, and, especially since it's unreliable to ask on a talk page for help, it's detrimental to encourage users to ask for help on a randomly green user's talk page, which they of course assume means that the user is important, which is bad. My argument seems to tie together nicely, whereas yours does not, especially because it's based on the circular logic that we need a legend because we have highlights, which are bad, and what I consider the false assumption that the highlights are fine, though I've been spurned enough by "consensus" on this issue... Leftiness 04:11, February 9, 2011 (UTC)
If this fails, then another removal of hilites thread should be started as it's an opt-out no-identification way of telling users who have x, y or z group rights. That being said, one intends to follow-up this thread with such as no legend should mean the removal of the hilites, even if the beginning wasn't worded for this. Less than a handful of wikis colour their higher-ups, and even then not all administrators are as capable of answering questions as non-admins depending on the issue at hand seeing as the only reason (minus whatever Megalondon thought all those years ago) to have them is to post queries on said talk pages. Ryan PM 06:33, February 9, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Per all supporters. I don't really get any of the opposes. And to Degen's argument, I believe the opposite is true: If they don't know what the names represent, they will be more likely to think that they are just "special cool people" than if they did. (davelopo) 20:14, February 8, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - After coming to a conclusion, I am against adding a legend to validate the usage of colouring certain usergroups as I intend to see their removal. Even though one proposed this I was uncertain on what points would be raised in the dicussion, such as why I didn't take this to the RuneScape:Administrator requests project page. Directing users to sysop and bureaucrat talk pages shouldn't be done as was the creation of Administrative requests and the User help project pages. I would like to see a valid reason, albeit biased as I dislike them, for their usage when former project pages replace their use on this Wikia wiki. Minus the Wikia "me" concept, this proposal only implements changes to the RC and not WikiActivity where Wikia has all users immediately linked to in the Wikia skin, the only other place or rather current place to see the meaning on hilites is on the FAQ project page. Ryan PM 06:33, February 9, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Can only help new users. While we're at it, we should make hilites compulsory. XD Chicken7 >talk 09:21, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Closed no consensus to implement this change. The suggestion to make the links to User and Admin help bigger received only weak support but zero opposition.--Degenret01 22:41, March 1, 2011 (UTC)