Forum:Uploading RuneScape music

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This thread was archived on 22 August 2009 by Azaz129.

Uploading RuneScape music

As some of you may know, the music that plays while playing RuneScape can usually be found in our computers in a cache folder in the form of MIDI files. These MIDI files can be uploaded into the wiki, and included/embedded in articles (quests, Music, etc.) The files can be set to play automatically, or on-demand.

I have 70-80% 65% of the MIDI files and the files are quite small in size (average 20-50kb per file). Embedding the MIDI files can be tricky, but I have found a way using a combination of templates and JS.

The thing that concerns me is: copyright. Can we upload these files...? We're already using content from the game (images/screen captures) and website under the conditions of "Fair use".. so why not upload the music too?

If anyone is interested in this, I'll work on it. Currently, I've tested the embedding script, and it works. All I need to do is to create a template (similar to the Listen template in Wikipedia) and we can start playing MIDI files in articles.   az talk   09:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with this, and providing demos for players in the music list and all, that would be great. I can't find the midi's though in my cache, any reason why? 09:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Prior to November 2007, the MIDI files used to be located at "c:/windows/.files_store32" or something like that. If you've been playing RS before November 2007, you'll notice some MIDI files there, otherwise I'm afraid you wouldn't have the files. The MIDI files I have are from the game before Jagex updated engine in 2007. For music released after that, you have to record the music manually using audio-recording softwares.   az talk   06:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I have played Runescape prior to Nov. 2007, but not on this laptop, but on a public address, so I guess I don't have them. 06:00, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
If they're short, they can be used under fair use, I believe. Basically, we just can't upload the whole song; a 30 second clip or something should be fine though.--Richardtalk 16:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Support if they're clips less than thirty seconds long. Anything longer than that would be unnecessary and reaching the limits that fair use can stretch to. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!I have 12 friends. 02:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The tracks I have are full songs, some up to 4 mins long.. However, the playback time can be limited to 30 secs even if we upload full songs. If we cannot upload full songs, I'll have to cut the songs short, and this could be a time-consuming process. I'll see what I can do...
I also have other sound effects like "Quest completion", "Levelling up", "Magic carpet ride", etc. Some of these clips are less than 30 secs, and shouldn't be a "Fair use" problem.   az talk   06:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
The problem here is that courts have traditionally been much more harsh about their interpretation of fair use for musical compositions, as opposed to textual quotes and even images. In one really unusual case, a total of about 10 notes were copied and a successful copyright infringement suit resulted. I kid you not here... it is that bad. The tide seems to be turning the other way in terms of allowing slightly more latitude in fair-use, but what you are talking about here is really stretching the limits of fair-use. I don't know where Jagex got this music, but I would have to assume they either got these midi files from some professional composers or from a music library company, and it is licensed by Jagex for use in their game alone. In other words, I doubt that Jagex even owns this music for them to give permission for us to use it here... but I may be mistaken on this issue. A sample of a couple of these songs might be acceptable, but a complete library of everything in the game may be (unfortunately) over the top and too much as well, from a strictly legal viewpoint. For personal use (also covered under fair-use law), that is something different but we are talking publication and distribution when it comes to this wiki. --Robert Horning 10:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Just to inform you, Jagex does own all rights to these songs. They are written specifically for the games by, I believe, only two individuals hired by Jagex. 18:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
While I'm not questioning the truth of this statement, it would be nice to get a citation that could be used with this little tidbit. At least to put it into the Runescape article on Wikipedia if nothing more. I would like to know who composed some of this music in the game. --Robert Horning 20:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I was mistaken, it is three hired staff, as stated here: [http://www.runescape.com/kbase/viewarticle.ws?article_id=446 Music Team]. 21:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Yup, there are three Mods in the Music team: Mod Ian, Mod Dan and Mod Bond. Some of the earlier MIDIs are credited to Ian and Dan, with the copyright belonging to Jagex Ltd.

Anyways, I haven't had the time to create samples out of the MIDI files yet (I've been quite busy with other projects), but I'll try to do it soon. Anyone would like to request particular tracks...? I'm planning to upload maybe three or four 30-sec sample tracks (2 from the Music Player, and 1-2 sound clips from the game). How does that sound?   az talk   21:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps some more popular tunes. I'm not sure of the titles for I am not online at the moment, but perhaps the ones heard in the Grand Exchange, Lumbridge, Varrock Square, and maybe some others. 23:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree. Some music tracks are very nice, and I dont think we're breaking any copyright, as we're only playing a sample, like in iTunes store, for example. About getting the MIDI files, a quick google will do, I think 4ndrepd 12:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)--

So I guess that we cannot do full versions, well then, I guess those 5 or so OGG's need to be deleted of the wiki... But I can do 30 second sound bites, but I would like to see it add MP3 support at OGG's take awhile to do without the proper software. Ryan PM 02:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The OGG files do not have to be deleted... just upload the 30-second clipping under the same name ("Upload a new version of this file"). mp3s are currently not supported by Wikia, but I'll try asking the staff. Mediawiki, however, have a beta-release extension called FlashMP3 which allows mp3s to be played. See this example of the player in action.   az talk   09:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Strong Support - Great idea! Maybe articles for each track (or maybe not)? Also, this would enable me to listen to a bunch of members only tracks that I'd love to hear. :D ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  05:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about articles for every single track... there wouldn't be much information to put on the page, and posting clips of all the songs might be copyright infringement. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 02:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I got all but the Zamorak_Zoo.ogg so far (as I need to figure out why all the songs I record now having Popping noises o_O). I also see how the current version (and I see why it is in Beta) for the FlashMP3 is not used here yet. Also, I do record the entire piece for my sake to find the best 30 Seconds of the piece without ripping it into 10 Second bits. Currently, it takes 30 Minutes to get the Audio Correct (Meaning I have to rerecord due to the odd noises now), saving to MP3, then Converting to OGG (To which I have to find another software as my WavePad Trial for things like OGG extensions expire soon), and cutting it to the best 30 Seconds (Which some people may debate soon - IDK when that may occur). I'll still be adding music periodically, but is it possible to do things like a Level_99_Fireworks.ogg for the Milestone to add some depth, or like a 1494_Total_level_Fireworks.ogg(since they are not actual music)? (I will record them later when I get the chance | Hopefully before my own 99/1494 Woodcutting/Total level day!) =P Ryan PM 04:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

While I am still at work with Zamorak Zoo, I am working on Bandos Battalion and some harder to reach songs (i.e. - Victory is Mine from a Champion scroll). I am uploading certain songs as I go along (Next one after Victory is Mine is Trees aren't your Friends), but I am still looking for a replaceable OGG converter. I'll make a list or just leave it alone and upload the songs as I go along as I've said. May the Audio Project have Godspeed (Klaus Badlet - The Time Machine) in its' pace. :) Ryan PM 08:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Why aren't the OGG's playing anymore? I see that the Download icon seems to be gone (But I do not know if it is my computer not letting me play the audio bites or if the code was changed?). Ryan PM 19:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I did a little research into this, and I found Wikipedia's music sample guidelines. I think it would be a good idea for us to try and follow this as close to the letter as possible, because it deals with properly conforming to copyright laws. Some things of note: Sample clips used must be 30 seconds long or 10% of the length of the original song, whichever is shorter. (therefore, music under 5 minutes means the 10% rule must be used. This applies to a lot of RuneScape's music). Samples must also be of a reduced quality from the original. -Byte_Master bytesig2.png bytesig3.png 15:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Support using clips from songs from more popular areas and sound effects such as leveling up. This would be a good thing to add to the wiki; however, only do it when you are completely sure that it isn't illegal, as I'd hate to have a lawsuit on the wiki because we added some music clips. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 02:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have read the Policy on the 30 Seconds or 10% Rule, but some of which I plan to upload are Sound Bites, Sound Effects (To which I do not believe fall under this rule; i.e. 99_Firework_Jingle.Midi - I will get this soon; I have 643 Midi Files from 2004 to Early 2005 or so - Many of which I do not know if they are/were even used.), and some material that would fall under this Rule. While some might not agree with me, I think it may have to be used on some articles, and for the most part, I do not think the music will be shortened to that period of time, as to my knowledge, it has never been made for resale by Jagex. Ryan PM 22:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment - My only concern is that the clips (if added, i don't care either way) do not load automatically. I personally loathe sites that automatically play music. I think this might be a turn off to other users. Having them play on-demand would solve this concern in my view. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 20:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Um, they do not play automatically, they require you to press the button. See Template:Listen.
Example removed. Sample need to be used in the relevant article.
Also, the Sound Bites should not fall under the Same Licensing Copyright as it would be impossible to hear .1 Second of an Action or the like. That is why I have not put a License under the Fireworks bite. Ryan PM 23:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
On another note, we cannot obviously name whether Ian Taylor or the other two did which of the songs (With the Exception being the ones that Change their name in iTunes..... from the old midi files to Written by: Ian Taylor) without a-lot of research to which I may do if the time permits. Ryan PM 00:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Sound effects are included in Jagex's copyright, and would have to uploaded under "Fair use". Thus, for short samples (or sound effects), I've amended the audio copyright template to include the "de minimis" condition/defense.
@Bluesonic: We have agreed (see above) that all audio samples need not be uploaded. Including all sound effects would not fulfill the conditions of "fair use". As of now, I think the amount of audio samples we have is sufficient. Please do not upload more.
On the author of the samples, it will be safe to say: "Audio team, Jagex" or simply "Jagex".   az talk   03:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The (C) Issue

EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY 99 STRENGTH STRONG OPPOSE - I oppose this so much because these .mid (MIDI) files are 100% copyrighted by Jagex. Using the whole song, or clips of them is strictly prohibited by copyrights. Maybe uploading free songs make more sense because members-only songs require money to listen to. This all means that this music would have to cost some sort of money when uploaded to the wiki, and that money be sent to Jagex. This, of course, is not possible. These aren't just some old songs that can be ripped from the Internet (well, technically speaking, they are). These are Jagex files. Getting these songs would be literately stealing from Jagex. That would lead to a lawsuit against the RuneScape Wiki. Since we are not a company, the suit would end up being the problem of Wikia Inc. Lastly, our wiki would be locked up forever until the money could be paid. So I oppose. ~DerilthTalk 20:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - I dont mean this to be insulting, but I really dont believe that anyone here actually knows what they are talking about when it comes to interpreting copyright/legal issues seeing as how the sum total of our experience lies with wikipedia and other miscellaneous internet reading. Aside from that, embedding music into web pages is not only very annoying, but also unnecessary. This was also discussed before and added into the still waiting approval media policy here [1]Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 00:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)