Forum:Unnecessary monster strategy pages deletion

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Forums: Yew Grove > Unnecessary monster strategy pages deletion
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This thread was archived on 3 September 2014 by Liquidhelium.

A little while back there was a successful RfD for the fire giants strategy page, with it being decided that it was better suited to a subsection than a subpage, similar to the dust devils' page.

There are quite a few more of these unnecessary pages, most of which were either rendered useless by EoC, or shouldn't really have existed to begin with. The non-boss ones are rarely updated, with editors seeming to prefer focussing on the monsters which actually require strategy guides.

My proposal is that we decide which of these are unnecessary and get rid of them in one fell swoop, rather than RfDing them one by one.

The ones that I, personally, feel should get the chop are:

Discussion

Support Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 14:27, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Support & Comment - Post-EoC has omitted the necessity of a guide (such as those of mithril dragons and potentially skeletal wyverns), whereas Pre-EoC it was more suitable for them to have a guide since. As a result, I hereby wholly support deletion of said list pages. Ozank Cx 14:34, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Big Support - Ever since the EoC update many monsters were made alot easier to kill, so a stragety guide for them have become unnecessary. The only monsters I reckon could do with having a stragety guide are those found from quests, like the recent boss fights in The Mighty Fall. pjJ4pBM.png Abyssal vine whip.png 14:43, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Support - Yak?! Deadly red spiders? Those have never required any strategy to kill, unless you're level 3... User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 10:55, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Support - Even with pre-EoC I find it kinda pointless there needs to be a entire page for yaks or green dragons. In fact those make more sense as either a MMG or just a section on P2P combat training. --Jlun2 (talk) 11:02, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
I made a mmg for green dragons. I based it on the blue dragon mmg, but in the process of testing it I discovered that green dragon bots have returned. :/ Temujin

Partial support - I am opposed to the deletion of the deadly red spider, greater demon, and hellhound strategy pages as those are all free-to-play monsters and the only non-rev/dg monsters that free players have any difficulty killing efficiently. Temujin 01:54, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Deadly red spiders? There is no difficulty in defeating them - they use one attack style and aren't very powerful or anything. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 06:39, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
"Deadly red spiders received a hidden update 2 May 2013, which greatly increased their ranged, strength and accuracy. Their combat level was raised to 136, and they have also gained a ranged attack. However, after another buff, players require food to train even if the player has rune in free-to-play or even barrows, in return for high experience gains." Temujin 07:08, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
Support - Temujin 10:09, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Support - A lot of these are easily killed by spamming abilities. -- Recent uploads SpineTalkGuest book 15:08, July 8, 2014 (UTC)


Support - Creature is weak to X, us that style to kill them. Not too complicated. Though you should know this would reduce the article count on RS Wikia ... --Deltaslug (talk) 16:17, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Question - Are you proposing that we replace these pages with subcategories on the monster page, or that we outright delete them? Farming-icon.png Ms ZuZu Talk Quest icon fixed.png 06:43, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

It has been proposed that, where applicable, the pages become subsections, as opposed to the subpages that they are now. For example, the abyssal demon strategy page would likely become a subsection, whereas the yak strategy page would likely be deleted. Temujin 07:43, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Support - Perhaps only monsters with strategy text so long that it clutters up its article are worthy of its own strategy page. Like bosses. Neutralino (talk) 01:56, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

{{Closure|Discussion has died. {{Signatures/Temujin96}} 08:42, August 17, 2014 (UTC)}}

Gravedig, stats and mostly oppose - Here's a list of the strategies pages by popularity:

Page Visits Targeted for deletion?
Waterfiend/Strategies 42602 Yes
Mithril dragon/Strategies 26333 Yes
Skeletal Wyvern/Strategies 22545 Yes
Deadly red spider/Strategies 16250 Yes
Black demon/Strategies 16019 Yes
Black dragon/Strategies 15609 Yes
Hellhound/Strategies 14378 Yes
Green dragon/Strategies 12433 Yes
Bloodveld/Strategies 12079 Yes
Grifolaroo/Strategies 11735 Yes
Ganodermic beast/Strategies 8761 Yes
Abyssal demon/Strategies 8616 Yes
Lesser demon/Strategies 6633 Yes
Mature grotworm/Strategies 6174 Yes
Aquanite/Strategies 5622 Yes
Greater demon/Strategies 5276 Yes
Ice strykewyrm/Strategies 4535 Yes
Cockroach soldier/Strategies 4179 Yes
Mutated jadinko guard/Strategies 2359 Yes
Rock lobster/Strategies 2066 Yes
Brutal green dragon/Strategies 2060 Yes
Mutated jadinko male/Strategies 1692 Yes
Armoured zombie/Strategies 1172 Yes
Kurask/Strategies 1015 Yes
Yak/Strategies 523 Yes
Queen Black Dragon/Strategies 91709 No
General Graardor/Strategies 57696 No
Barrows/Strategies 55736 No
Frost dragon/Strategies 45833 No
TzHaar Fight Cave/Strategies 42510 No
Kree'arra/Strategies 39986 No
Araxxor/Strategies 39011 No
Fight Kiln/Strategies 38201 No
Nex/Strategies 36833 No
Kalphite King/Strategies 34042 No
K'ril Tsutsaroth/Strategies 33709 No
Kalphite Queen/Strategies 26587 No
Aviansie/Strategies 26346 No
Dagannoth Kings/Strategies 24592 No
Commander Zilyana/Strategies 23837 No
Corporeal Beast/Strategies 23310 No
Vorago/Strategies 22122 No
King Black Dragon/Strategies 20515 No
Glacor/Strategies 18889 No
Tormented demon/Strategies 17180 No
Spiritual mage/Strategies 10167 No
General Graardor/Strategies Hard Mode 8692 No
Dark beast/Strategies 7767 No
Nomad/Strategies 7461 No
Dagannoth (Lighthouse)/Strategies 6374 No
Bork/Strategies 6205 No
Kree'arra/Strategies Hard Mode 5662 No
Chaos Elemental/Strategies 5638 No
Iron dragon/Strategies 5609 No
Automaton/Strategies 5060 No
Fire giant/Strategies 4917 No
Giant mole/Strategies 4802 No
Legiones/Strategies 4662 No
K'ril Tsutsaroth/Strategies Hard Mode 4156 No
Giant Mole/Strategies 3987 No
Fight Cauldron/Strategies 3731 No
Commander Zilyana/Strategies Hard Mode 3675 No
Pest Queen/Strategies 2993 No
Automaton Guardian/Strategies 2893 No
Legio Primus/Strategies 2764 No
Steel dragon/Strategies 2399 No
Chompy bird/Strategies 2323 No
Char (monster)/Strategies 2118 No
Balance Elemental/Strategies 1480 No
Tormented wraith/Strategies 1325 No
Nomad (monster)/Strategies 1158 No
Legio Quartus/Strategies 1145 No
Legio Sextus/Strategies 1018 No
Legio Tertius/Strategies 1010 No
Legio Quintus/Strategies 982 No
Legio Secundus/Strategies 982 No
TzHaar-Ket/Strategies 558 No
Skeleton (Ape Atoll)/Strategies 254 No

Basically, we'd be deleting about 25% of the visits to the strategies pages this way. Particularly problematic are the Waterfiend and Mithril dragon pages, which are actually quite popular. It's easy for us to look at them and say that those strategy guides are unnecessary, but these stats pretty obviously prove people use them (these stats were taken starting in February of this year). We shouldn't be deleting these unless we are sure that deleting them will result in a better experience for the (fairly large) number of people who use the guides. And I'm not sure of that at all. This actually reminds me a lot of the userbox thread. ʞooɔ 13:16, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Why can't we make the simpler ones and the less popular ones subsections? e.g. Lesser demons, Cockroach soldiers, Armoured zombies, etc. Temujin 23:10, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
Also, in addition to making it a subsection rather than a subpage, how about making the link redirect to said subsection? That would preserve views, wouldn't it? --Jlun2 (talk) 11:00, August 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - I thought I'd already posted here but apparently not. Why would we remove the strategy guides for these monsters? "Because they're easy"? Maybe then go write a guide about how to get the most kills per hour, that's strategy, isn't it? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 16:07, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Do some of them really need an entire subsection for optimal kills? I mean, post-EoC, it seems just getting highest tier weapon possible and using optimal revolution setups already does that (or near). --Jlun2 (talk) 11:00, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
Judging by the number of hits these pages get, yes. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 14:52, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
Comment - Fire Giant, Weak to Melee. It has no complex attack patterns (ie specials). It is low enough level that, yeah, you could get away with mage or range if you were higher level. But simply put "use best melee setup avail" on the page, in a strategy section that shouldn't take up more than 3 lines ... anything else would be excessive. I could make the same argument for lesser/greater/black demons, grotworms, warped creatures, and more. Complex bosses? Glacors, Tormented Demons, Legiones, yes, those need strategy pages to help players prep.--Deltaslug (talk) 18:23, August 18, 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Create a a general strategies page (or 3 subpages, one for each style) for the 'simple' monsters, with sections about

  • Weaponry - discussions on DW vs 2H, shields, legacy vs revolution, comments on tiers and attack type (i.e. weak to thrown are also weak to ranged in general so don't feel too pressured into using low level thrown if you have a higher tier bow/crossbow)
  • Gear - expanding on 'highest level you have', power armour vs lifepoint armour, special abilities (barrows gear, warpriest)
  • Abilities - basically Revolution#Optimal basic abilities with mention of changes for low levels, good thresholds and ultimates (or discussions on the good/bad of all of them)
  • Other - inventory/prayers/auras/pocket slot - mention useful items like enhanced excalibur and other achievement items, the various drop-cleaners, slayer helm and masks, etc

making it as generic/monster-unspecific as possible, and ideally account for free-to-play. Main strategy page should maybe have some minor discussion on stuff (mentioning that weakness can be overcome with sufficiently high tier weaponry) but refer to the subpages for more, and another section to mention monster-specific guides (and maybe use DPL to list them all). Make sure to not confuse it with the skill-training and money-making guides.

Create a template to go with it to put on the monster pages - something like "This monster does not require a specific strategy, so see the general strategy pages [here]. This monster is weak to <style>, which has a general strategy [here]." Add a few lines on specific strategies if needed (e.g. Spiritual mages: general ranged guide is fine, with the addition of god protection and the possible removal of multitarget/AoE abilities - full strategy page not needed). Redirect the <monster>/Strategy pages to the strategy subsection on the monster page. A nicer/more eyecatching template for {{HasStrategy}} and a new template for the top of the strategy page would be good too. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 20:30, August 18, 2014 (UTC)

What is wrong with making the strategy pages of certain monsters subsections? User:Temujin96/Deadly red spider works better than Deadly red spider, which has an unnecessary subpage. How would we determine which monsters do not require their own strategy pages and would therefore link readers to a "general strategy page"? Many of the monsters listed by Ansela require specific strategy, but don't require enough specific strategy to warrant a subpage. Temujin 07:07, August 19, 2014 (UTC)
The general ideas of combat don't change between most monsters: the ideal equipment and actionbar to range nihil is all but identical to the ideal equipment and actionbar to range spiritual mages, and dark beasts, and greater demons, and rorarii/scutari/capsari/gladii, and aviansie (hell, the same stuff works for kree'arra), etc. The same holds for most melee targets and most magic targets. When new items/mechanics are introduced - or how armour works is completely changed - all of these guides are outdated and most people don't bother to update them all, but a central page is easier to do so. (Especially true now since armour value is all-but worthless and very few to no guides emphasise DPS, LP or effect gear over it.)
I can't help but think the tabber is an eyesore, though maybe better than before. The collapsed state is awful too. The issue is that if you replaced deadly red spider with <F2P monster weak to melee>, it'd work just as well.
I agree that deciding what is 'worthy' of its own strategy pages and what is not is an issue. There can certainly be some guidelines created about it, but it'll probably come down to case-by-case decision in the end. As I mentioned, any minor specifics on strategy can be put in the strategy section with the reference to the general strategy page. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 16:13, August 19, 2014 (UTC)

Closed - There is no consensus to delete these strategy pages. --LiquidTalk 04:15, September 3, 2014 (UTC)