Forum:Unjust kicks and trolling

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This thread was archived on 5 October 2010 by Ajraddatz.

Alright, two issues here.

First, we need a clearer definition of trolling. I have been kicked once for "trolling" which I will address later on, and have been threatened with a kick two other times, all for "trolling". At those times I was simply stating my opinion, in a relevant, non-insulting manner. If you wish to kick me for flaming thats a separate issue. This has happened to other users also, and I think it needs to stop. I define trolling as intentionally causing trouble, which is something I see very, very rarely. What I see often, though, is ranks who disagree with some one deciding that the other person's opinion is so outrageous that they cant possibly believe what they are saying and are simply trying to cause trouble. Thus, i think that it is necessary for us to clearly define trolling- I would, as I said, define i as intentionally causing trouble. Some examples would be trying to start a discussion unrelated to the runescape, or stating an opinion that would be considered controversial that has no connection to the topic.

Regarding my kick: The discussion went about like this: People were discussing what agility coarse were best. I stated that i though wildy was best from 47-70 agility. People started arguing about that. At this point Dtm comments that "revs will be attacking you every 10 minutes" at the coarse. I challenge him to come to the coarse with me and see if that is true, but he declines the challange, saying he is busy. I offer to add him and do it later, which is about were the image picks up at.

Normally, people also ask that the discussion end if it is going in a bad direction. No-one asked that here, or said anything indicating they had a problem with the discussion, other then Dtm. Whats worst of all, though, is that when I posted on Dtm's talk page trying to understand why I was kicked, his response ( in the cc ) was "I don't have to talk to internet trolls." Now, I'll let you decide if I was unjustly kicked or not, but even if I wasn't, that is a major problem if ranks can just ignore any complaint, legitimate or not, by labeling you an internet troll. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 16:17, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment what about your last comment "I am not trollinglmfaoooooo"? There also is no pictures of what happened before all of that. You only show the end of the conversation, and nobody can tell what you were saying before you were kicked.16px‎AtlandyBeer.png 17:15, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

So because I said I'm not trolling, that means I am trolling....? I don't follow your logic. And I'm sorry for not having any more pics, but we could try asking other members of the cc that were there at the time about it. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:26, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah...that'd be nice. I don't like to state an opinion on something without knowing all the facts...we pretty much missed the whole thing on agility courses. Basically here's what's going to happen though: We're going to have a discussion and everyone is going to through around a bunch of stuff and none of it will matter in the end. Dtm will get a slap on the wrist in a worst-case scenario for him, but more likely nothing happens to anyone. Someone's going to tell you it's a 1 hour kick and to get over it, because it's not permanent. Then everyone will rant some more and finally someone will close the thread and say it's all fine and dandy. A troll is someone who intentionally causes the clan chat to get riled up/fight/etc. Are you a troll? No. Ta-da. HaloTalk 17:36, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Yes it is a 1 hour kick, but as I said it has happened to me mulitple times, and others also, so I'd say the trolling issue is a bigger deal. I'm not looking for Dtm to be punished, I just want him to explain his reasoning. I also think it would be nice to make it clear that ranks DO have to explain their kicks, and cannot just dismiss everyone they kick as a troll. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:42, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

While it appears you did not intentionally try to cause trouble, the trouble in the chat at the time was a result of incivility on both sides based on what you have told us thus far. Your actions probably should not have resulted in a kick (again, purely based on the evidence in the picture), but the fact that you did not attempt to cool the situation and instead began to argue is unimpressive. Dtm mentioned you are more likely to be ignored by him than friended, implying that there is a separate problem between the two of you that needs to be resolved. Whatever this personal problem, it should not have resulted in a kick, though this does not justify the actions of either party. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 17:54, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and I wanted to resolve it with him as, but when I asked he responded by saying "I don't have to talk to internet trolls". But I am still open to discussing if he wants to. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:58, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Does no one know what trolling means? Its starting an argument for the sake of starting an argument. Like pretending to be against abortion to get all the pro choicers riled up, or giving someone bad advice to make them angry later. No one in there was trolling >_< anyways there is clearly a history between you and dtm, and I'm not sure of what that is, so I can't really comment. However dtm didn't demonstrate abuse of power or anything, perhaps just a poor choice of actions. That said I don't think any disciplinary actions are warranted for anyone, and I think you should just put it behind you, especially if you are indeed interested in reconciling with dtm. What is your intent of this thread? Its not meant to be a derogatory remark, I just don't know what you are hoping to get out of this exchange. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:14, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Unless dtm had a secret dislike for me before this, we have had no dislike before now. In-fact, I don't believe we have interacted at all before now. My goal with the thread is to try to get Dtm to explain his actions, or apologies if he had no explanation and did it for the heck of it. More importantly though, I would like a clear definition of trolling to be made, added to the cc page. One may already exist, and if so, IDK what to do, because it seems trolling is becoming a synonym for debating a ranked member. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 18:22, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Psycho pretty much has got it right. I cannot imagine where this thread is going. Proper trolling is often faking it, rather than stating a legitimate opinion, although people who have a legitimate opinion and use it to cause trouble are also trolling. Anyway, it looks like Dtm might have kicked you a little bit early, but you were clearly being rude, and your screenshot is not concise, important stuff could be missing from earlier.. melonWatermelon slice.png 18:43, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Its indeed perplexing that you haven't had any interaction with dtm prior to this, and in light of that his actions are puzzling, however I still don't think it was anything intentionally malicious. Perhaps a bad mood, or maybe he's just become acquainted with your personality (which I don't think you will deny is argumentative at times) through your posts on the wiki and comments in the clan chat that he did not respond to at the time, and as such he developed a lowered tolerance for you. I can't say for sure, however dtm has never really done this before, and is likely an isolated incident based on a misunderstanding. Also we don't need to come up with a definition of trolling, as it already has a indisputable definition. What word they used to kick you doesn't really matter anyways. If they kick someone for insulting someone else and call it trolling, its a just kick and there's no need to complain about the term they used. Likewise if they unjustly kick someone, the problem is not with the term, but rather the unjust kick. As such I don't think there's any reason to go into a debate about what trolling means, nor adding it to the policy. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:47, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Well, what do you suggest? It is obvious, at least to me, that trolling is becoming a synonym for having any disagreement with a ranked member in the cc, which is wrong. If he was just in a bad mood or just acquainted with my personality, I would still think he could at least talk to me after the thing was long over, and we had both cooled down. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 19:00, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest you not care what the reason is, only whether it was just or unjust. Like I said if I kick you for trolling, and you deserve it, it doesn't matter if you were really trolling or not. Likewise if I kick you and you didn't deserve it, it doesn't matter what reason I gave, I made a mistake. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 19:03, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Allright, I'll drop the trolling issue for now, but what if it is an unjust kick though? As halo said, nothing will happen then aether- dtm won't have to give up his kicking power for 1 misuse, even a blatently obvious one. So what do you suggest? Everyone makes mistakes, but how can it be right for a rank to unfairly kick and have no consiquences for it? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 19:14, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Currently I don't think there's any need for consequences. Dtm has always been a stand up guy, and this is the only time I can think of that he has done anything like this. If he makes a habit of it, then its different, but currently I think that if this is dropped, it will likely never happen again. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 19:25, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
That sends a signal to all ranks that they can kick anyone who disagrees with them and have no consequences. Most wikians wouldn't even remember it happened a day later, so all kinds of stuff could have happened and no1 would have complained. After all, I didn't complain the first two times it happened. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 19:33, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
I'm agreeing with 3rd Age, It just totally defeats the purpose of equality within the wiki if a rank can just kick someone and there not to be any consequences. RSN: Warthog Rhys Talk Completionist's cape... Coming soon. 19:38, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with his rank, given these circumstances with someone else, I still wouldn't want to block or derank them or anything. I'm all for giving him a warning or a slap on the wrist or something. I'm not saying dtm should always be able to kick whoever he wants. But this is an isolated incident. If it becomes a habit or if he does it a lot, that's a lot different. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 20:07, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
How do you know its an isolated incident? As I said, I didn't complain till now, no way of knowing weather others did/didn't when and if it happened to them. I'm not saying it has happened before and I'm not trying 2 smear his reputation, but we may not know all the facts. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 20:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
I had a similar disagreement with Dtm...but he didn't kick me. I almost thought he was going to for a bit, but I guess I was wrong. Dtm can correct me on this, but it seems to be that his opinion is always right, and if you disagree, well screw you because you are a _(Fill in the blank depending on the situation)_. Maybe that's what his attitude is, maybe it isn't. That's just what it appears to be for me. I don't like him very much, but he does know quite a bit and I still respect him. Even if this wasn't an isolated incident, nothing would happen other than a slap on the wrist (as I said above), so I don't see the point in arguing over this. AEAE is a downright lie, 'crats are always going to have more "power" and less chance of getting in trouble, sysops as well, but not so much. No policy will change that. We live in a flawed world, and pretending like it's perfect isn't going to make it perfect. So basically, the best thing we can do is get over it and try to avoid pissing 'crats/sysops off. HaloTalk 04:58, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not going to treat them any differently then I treat others. If I experience AEAE not existing, I will bring focus on the user who is not following the policy. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 12:46, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
Well, I suppose I can't argue with that, but I still say that the only thing that could be done to dtm is that he would receive a warning. What type of consequences do you think are warranted? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 20:26, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Thats what I tried asking you a little bit ago =P. A block would be far to harsh, removal of rank would also be harsh, warnings seem ok, but A) he could just ignore them as they don't actually harm him or B) they could only add fuel to a dieing out fire, so that may not be a good idea aether. Its not the kick that I'm so concerned about, its the attitude after. Gradiushero, any opinions? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 21:00, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
That's what my point is here. There is nothing to really accomplish. Nothing will happen to him other than someone telling him, "That's too far, don't do it again". And even if he does do it again, no one will care. So basically, let's just give him the warning, let him ignore it, and move on with life. That's at least my idea...I don't imagine other people are too keen on it. HaloTalk 05:00, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - "Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet" RSN: Warthog Rhys Talk Completionist's cape... Coming soon. 18:53, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with what you did. That is not trolling. You did not even get angry; you were simply arguing, which isn't necessarily trolling. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 19:01, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I agree to an extent. I know heaps of ranks and admins who argue in the CC, sometimes, myself included. Chicken7 >talk 00:44, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - 3AF did not do anything that would be tantamount to trolling. Maybe a minor argument, but definitely not trolling. Dtm should not be punished, as that will exaggerate the situation, which is minor. However. Dtm should explain his actions properly and maybe apologise if you want. Thankfully, 3AF is not holding any grudges. And finally, we have a legit complaint thread. 222 talk 00:40, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - This may come as a surprise to everyone reading this, however, Dtm142 was very much in the wrong with what he did, assuming it was him that kicked 3AF. As Dtm142 was involved in the conversation, his kicking of 3AF represents a conflict of interest on his part, and he should be given a nice little talk about it. Because Dtm142 was directly involved, he should have stepped back and let another uninvolved person with kick powers deal with the situation, to avoid bias within the response. Bla, need to go, but please comment on what I've just said and I'll answer questions when I get back. ajr 00:54, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I was paying a tiny bit of attention to the cc before this turned into an argument, and it didn't seem as if 3AF was doing anything wrong at that point, though I stopped paying attention before there seemed to be anything more than a mild disagreement. I agree with Ajr about the situation. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 02:04, August 14, 2010 (UTC) 

Request for closure - Dtm will be ordered to apologies and/or explain himself, and warned not to continue unjust kicks and kicking when theres a conflict of interest. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:04, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Comment So you are going to order Dtm to apologize and/or explain himself? First, you have no idea if it was him that kicked you. Second, you have no information to give to us of the comments made before you got kicked. Forcing someone to apologize is wrong when there is no proof that he anything wrong at all 16px‎AtlandyBeer.png 22:28, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
Dtm is not denying it was him, so we can assume it was unless another admin comes forward and says it was them. You may feel like I didn't have enough pictures, but others don't. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:46, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and I assume it will be the admin who closes this who would order him to apologize/explain, not me. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:48, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
What I am concerned about is "ordering" him to do something. What if he doesn't? What is your plan then? De-crat? The fact is that you were kicked from a clan chat for something that is questionable at best on both sides. 16px‎AtlandyBeer.png 16:32, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, wanna call it requesting? If he doesn't, it not my concern- I'm simply stating what he did, and leaving it up to others what is done. based on the results of the thread, I though that closing and asking for him to explain was fair- maby thats not the case, but its not like I'm decreeing stuff without support from others. furthermore, its not the kick I'm concerned about. What do you think should be done? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:47, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure an apology and and explanation is enough for this situation. IMO. 222 talk 07:26, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
Request for closure (again) - Dtm will be told to explain his actions or apologies, and warned not to continue kicking when there is a conflict of interest. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 12:12, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
Request denied - I do not feel that there is a preponderance of the evidence to warrant a warning. If Dtm wants to make an apology, that is his choice, and his choice alone. --LiquidTalk 17:32, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Explain

Dtm MUST explain why he kicked me. We cannot have ranks kicking literally whoever they want and then when questions come up dismissing the person as an internet troll. I don't really care about an apology as, provided he has a good reason, I have nothing against him. Also, idk much about the conflict if intrest issue, if thats a problem work it out but its not my concern. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 18:55, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Support - <-- Will this be needed? An explaination, I consider that the minimum. However an apology shouldn't be necessary. And a warning, chances are it won't do anything; it's just a formality, right?222 talk 07:12, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - We can't force ranks to give a reason as to why they kicked a user after every kick; it's not plausible. They're trusted with the power to kick for a reason. Suppa chuppa Talk 07:21, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

So what stops them from kicking literally every member in the cc and then ignoring any complaint dismissing every1 as an internet troll? A line must be drawn. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:08, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
We don't need to. Most of them are "valid" kicks with good reason. But this one deserves an explanation as there appears to be a conflict of interest. 222 talk 09:51, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Part of the reason may be because you continued arguing instead of just letting it go. Though, judging from the clan chat, both you and the alleged kicker kept it up. I'm not a frequenter to the clan, but I am ranked in a couple clans that I hang around a lot. As an "outsider" to this event and the like, here's what would happen in one of the clans I'm in: Disputing ideas. Pointless arguing begins. Request to stop arguing. Arguing persists. Both are kicked. I say pointless because it was about whether one player was trolling or not and it took over much of the chat as seen in the screen. What I see is some minor name-calling from 3RD and Dmt not being able to move on. Just my opinion, though, and tone can't be judged from text. Both should get over it, shake hands, and start again, this time respecting each other just a bit more (fyi, 3RD's comment of "little kid" was likely taken as an insult). Also, seriously, both of you need to chill a bit and just look on the humorous side of things if an argument comes up. You get called "little kid" - say something like "oh, no! I need my blankey to cope with this! mommy!!!! :P" and try to keep it light. That smiley also goes a long way. ;) Also, don't demand an apology. It makes you seem like you can't just live and let live ;) You're making a mountain out of a molehill (maybe even an anthill). That's just my advice. Take it or leave it. But if you leave it by the curb, mark it for recycling, not trash please :P I am the Lhikan!(TaLk) 18:44, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, when he said I may end up on his ignore list, I though he ment he had already put me on it. I wouldn't have called him a little kid if I had known he hadn't actually added me to the list. I would let this go if i didn't think it was almost gurenteed to happen again, and if Dtm wasn't still being hostile. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 18:56, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
Kinda hard to kick 'crats...just thought I'd through that out there. HaloTalk 18:48, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

{{Rfc|complete=true}}222 talk 05:41, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Request for closure - Discussion has died, and nothing can really be done/needs to be done. HaloTalk 12:23, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - Dtm will be desysopped/debureaucratted as a result of his actions. I'm joking btw. ajr 13:04, October 5, 2010 (UTC)