Forum:UCS

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This thread was archived on 12 December 2010 by Haloolah123.

Why does RS:UCS only say something about community decisions to be made, and when policies should be followed or common sense should be used? I think UCS is much wider. Using common sense is also that you don't split the article for 1 coin, 2 coins etc. just because of the different inventory icon. That is also common sense, but is not included in our common sense. I have been pointed to the fact that the thing i was discussing about with someone had to do nothing with common sense. It did, but it didn't have to do something with our common sense. That is a difference, because it does have to do something with common sense not to split the coins for each inventory icon, but when i would link someone to RS:UCS certain people will say it is not common sense.

What i propose is that we add something to RS:UCS that common sense should be applied in every single situation.

Discussion

Support - As JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 11:52, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I think we'd need to define "common sense" a bit better first. Then we'd need 3 months of mandatory "common sense" and "sarcasm" lessons at the UOL. Then, maybe we could add that. Because common sense only works when you aren't dealing with morons :D or maybe I'm just a bit too cynical. - [Pharos] iPhone Edit 12:00, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Amg! you be cynical! you muzt be blokked fer not azyouming g00d fayd!
But seriously, we should indeed define common sense better. it is too unclear now. And about sarcasm: that is something not evryone recognises immediately, but i don't think it has a really high priority. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 13:16, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Every single situation? I think not. Per UCS. Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 13:35, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - The point of RS:UCS is to not blindly follow policy, and use your brain where you think a rule isn't right. For instance, as you said, not splitting Coins into articles for each stack. If you used RS:UCS, you'd be able to figure out that it applies all over the wiki, not just in discussions. There's enough proof in the fact that we don't have separate articles for Mystic Boots, seeing as the only difference is the colour and price. If we followed RS:G there, each one would have an article to itself. Similarly, we only split Clue Scroll up because the names got changed, so all 4 tiers no longer shared the exact same appearance. Real Mad 14:06, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Err, if i used RS:UCS i wouldn't be able to figure out it applies all over the wiki, not only about policies. If i used common sense however, i would. The difference is that the words(not meaning) on RS:UCS only say something about policies, and not about other situations. So using common sense you know its meaning does say so, but as not everyone can/does so, i am proposing this addition, which clearly is used already, but just not written down. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:56, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
Lolwut? The policy is called "Use Common Sense"; you don't even need to read a policy to work out that it means "Use your common sense". Real Mad 16:29, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Ironic Oppose - You should use common sense and use the UCS clause where appropriate. Most if not all of our policies are based upon some sort of common sense anyway. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 17:14, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

If i use RS:UCS at the places i think it should be used, chess comes and says "that is not even close to related to RS:UCS" so i hoped we could let UCS say that it is not only about when to use policies or not, but also about any other situation. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:56, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Stuff It is kind of a shame we even need to have a policy named Use Common Sense at all. Yet without it, many people will and often do try to blindly follow other policies without actually applying thought. I find it disheartening to so much potential go to waste. When one points to a policy as the sole reason to do something but fails to consider whether it is actually useful in that instance, that is fail. I think it could even be best for us to make UCS an essay rather than a policy, but indeed encourage people to think about actions and how helpful they are WITHOUT pointing to a policy as justification for their actions. Yes, I know, policies are based on reasons and so when one points to a policy they are actually pointing to the reason for the policy to justify their current acts. But this is far far from 100% of the time. (On a personal note, I do think "Granularity" is the most often abused and cited policy people point to in cases where it makes no sense to use it, but that is just a side note observation). We should be using common sense in every thing we do across every namespace. Always. And do it because it makes sense, not because we have a policy named Use Common Sense.--Degenret01 17:29, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

In addition, I find UCS is often cited to justify actions which are wholly unjustifiable. It becomes not "is this common sense" but "do I think this is common sense" and of course most people think their actions are common sense, even when they aren't. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:47, November 29, 2010 (UTC)
Yea, that too. What is "omg totally obvious" to one person rarely is the correct choice to all.--Degenret01 18:58, November 29, 2010 (UTC)
Do i understand correctly that you say things that make sense should always be done, but we shouldn't do it because there is a policy that says so, but because it makes sense to do so? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:56, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

WHAT? I DON'T EVEN... ...and Oppose --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16) 跟我谈话 21:56, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

What was the point of this comment.   Swizz Talk   Events!   17:15, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
I agree. If you're going to comment on a thread, at least give a reason. ʞooɔ 19:21, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - If we tell people how to use common sense in every situation, it's pointless to call it common sense. We would have to rename the policy "Do this instead of free thinking" and put it at RS:DTIOFT. :3 svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 21:59, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't common sense very free thinking? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:56, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

What Gaz said - <- What that says. HaloTalk 22:10, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Yo dawg, I herd u liek UCS so I put some UCS in ur UCS so u can use UCS while u use UCS - There's no reason to do this. The spirit of the policy is to...er...use common sense. That goes beyond policies, and I think everyone accepts that as being such. No need to change the policy. ʞooɔ 23:15, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

The spirit is. and not evryone accepts UCS to be "to use common sense where it makes sense to do so", for example chess doesn't. Everytime I link to RS:UCS he says "that doesn't have to do with RS:UCS" and he is right. When reading the words(not the meaning, the words) on RS:UCS it is only about when policies should be used. That is the only reason why i am proposing this. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:56, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
No. I'm not saying they are not in RS:UCS. I'm saying they have nothing to do with common sense and are your opinion. Do not twist what I say on discussions. bad_fetustalk 17:05, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Really now? The whole point that I proposed changing IAR to UCS was because people were misinterpreting the policy name of Ignore ALL Rules. Don't tell me the same is happening with UCS. Yes, use common sense. But, use common sense to determine when to use common sense. And common sense should dictate that common sense should be used. --LiquidTalk 23:18, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per UCS. 222 talk 06:33, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I see a lot of people say "per RS:UCS" but that is not a good reason. This is absolutely not a good reason, because RS:UCS is about when rules should be followed and when not. It is very well using common sense that you should always use common sense, but it is not RS:using common sense. That's why i am proposing this. And if evryone says "you should use common sense and use common sense when it is better to use common sense", doesn't that mean that you do think common sense should be used evrywhere when useful?
PS:I "spammed" some reactions around here. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:56, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I still don't think you understand the purpose of UCS. The sole purpose was that we shouldn't blindly follow policies just because it said so, otherwise it could lead to problems. We don't need to define what common sense is in every single situation. UCS should only be brought up as necessary. What you're trying to do is to be able to scream, "OMG! UCS here, UCS there." No, that's not what UCS should be used for. Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 19:46, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
I do understand exactly what RS:UCS is. Don't blindly follow what policies say, but use common sense. But we should also say that in other situations we should use common sense in other situations too, and the policy doesn't say anything about that now. And the way you say "We don't need to define what common sense is in every single situation." makes using common sense something you have to put hours of investigation in it before you know what common sense is in the situation. I think you actually don't understand what i am trying to say. I want something very, VERY simple added like "In other situations, you should also use common sense before saying something" That doesn't add any rules, but is an extra reference when someone is adding something that is bullshit. When the bullshit does't have to do anything with policies, RS:UCS can't be referred to. With the new addition it can. For example, someone adds "you need to have completed the tutorial before you can kill the KBD" to the KBD article you can't tell him to use RS:common sense because that doesn't say anything about adding completely useless information. And in that situation, common sense should be used and then you see it is completely pointless to add that to every single article. What is wrong with using common sense everywhere? what is wrong with adding something to a policy, which we already (should) do? What is wrong with making things clearer? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 10:40, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
Someone adds "You need to complete the tutorial first" to the KBD article, you can say "Use common sense, that's obvious, and unneeded." The point is mainly the title. You do NOT have to read some policies to know what they mean, it's like having to refer to the policy to work out what "Don't be a dick" means. Real Mad 18:08, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to repeat my final questions. What is wrong with using common sense everywhere? what is wrong with adding something to a policy, which we already (should) do? What is wrong with making things clearer? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 19:12, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
Joey, it's clear enough already. Policies apply over the entire wiki, and common sense applies to policies. Don't know about everyone else, but I'd say that means common sense applies over the wiki. Real Mad 20:12, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
Although it is clear for everyone apparently, what is wrong with adding it? it is just adding something we (should) already all do, so what is wrong with it? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 11:56, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
What's wrong with UCS in the first place? Real Mad 17:37, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
What's wrong is that it is not complete. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 15:14, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
It already makes perfect sense if you follow the name of the policy - you don't even have to read it to know what it means. Real Mad 12:36, December 4, 2010 (UTC)
Could you please tell Chess? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 06:48, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - The irony of this proposal is quite humorous..common sense probably wasn't applied there. Andrew talk 21:20, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - No real reason to do so. Suppa chuppa Talk 18:11, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I just read over UCS, and it didn't say anything about applying to certain areas of the wiki. ----クールネシトーク 04:32, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Joey is actually correct here. Our UCS policy is just an imported version of en.wikipedia's Ignore All Rules policy; because RS wikians are so silly, they changed the title of this local policy to "Use Common Sense". "Ignore All Rules" / majuscule "Use Common Sense" = yield to rules when they make sense, ignore them when they don't; minuscule "use common sense" = don't be stupid. The problem with that, of course, is that minuscule "use common sense" is a instruction applying to more than blind adherence to rules—which is what IAR is about;it's an approach to social interaction. Because the title of this policy is identical to the common admonition "use common sense", it has become conflated with the common phrase due to uncareful use. For example: This is a secret page. You can spam below anywhere, but don't spam too much (RS:UCS)! (source). He is, of course, not telling potential spammers to Ignore All Rules, he's instructing them to use common sense. Joey's point here is that although the RS:UCS page only discusses using common sense in the context of ignoring policies when they get in the way of what's right, "using common sense" means more than that. The simpletons here are evidently too unrefined to understand that distinction, but kudos to Joey for being a diamond in the rough. (wszx) 05:44, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

RS:DBAD/RS:UTP/RS:AEAE. and you know how I love policies. Just because you're not a Total Rune doesn't mean you can be uncivil in a discussion. I've monitored your previous YG activity, attacking users with force. Once again, please. ----クールネシトーク 05:54, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
Don't make me laugh. I'm criticizing the arguments and reasoning put forth by other people here; that's valid criticism. If I were to say "Coolnesse is a gayfag who has the intellectual capacity of a deranged monkey masturbating in the corner with a plough and can rot in hell", that would be out of line. But I didn't. Wikians here need to grow a thicker skin and understand that we don't have to be obsequious when we disagree, couching our comments in saccharine niceties. (wszx) 06:04, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
"Users" is a general term. If you think that we're too red-headed and dumb, why even say it? Your views are irrational, and you should keep them to yourself. ----クールネシトーク 06:22, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
My views are irrational?!?! DBAD!!!! (wszx) 06:23, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
You did just insult basically everyone in this thread by calling them a "simpleton". Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 07:53, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Request for closure - In this thread, i have seen about evryone say they already do what is in the proposal: use common sense evrywhere it is needed, even though the RS:UCS policy doesn't say so. The problem i had with the current version is that it doesn't say anything about other situations than situations involving policies. I hope evryone will continue to do use common sense evrywhere it is needed, and then we don't need a policy about this. I also hope evryone will understand that when you use common sense, you do/say what makes sense to do/say. because this addition to the policy seemed unneeded, and it is already done by evryone, i am

This request for closure is complete A user has requested closure for UCS. Request complete. The reason given was: complete

JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 11:50, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - No consensus has been achieved. HaloTalk 14:42, December 12, 2010 (UTC)