Forum:Turmoil bonus for infobox

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Forums: Yew Grove > Turmoil bonus for infobox
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This thread was archived on 10 February 2011 by Liquidhelium.


I've been thiking this might be a little but useful feature to the monster infobox; as everyone knows, Turmoil adds +15% Attack and Defence, 23% Strenght, plus 10% Strength and 15% Attack and Defence of the Enemy's levels, it could be a simple line in wich you input 3 values correcponding to Attack, Defence and Strength in order, for example, "|Turmoil bonus = 15, 15, 10" wich would correspond to... (in a more fancy way of course).

Add it above the drops section in the article, so its easily visible.

File:Turmoil.gif Turmoil Bonus

Attack-icon.png: +15%

Defence-icon.png: +15%

Strength-icon.png: +10%

OLD, for the Infobox.

Attack-icon.png Defence-icon.png Strength-icon.png
+15% +15%


To encourage people to help, we could post an announcement on the main page saying something like "Help the Wiki by adding the Turmoil bonus of a monster!" with a mini tutorial on how to edit the infobox on a page.


Support - As nomnomnator ScionCrush 23:32, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I didn't know, I can't use the prayer... Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 23:40, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

You might not, but those who do can contribute to the Wiki in a good way. ScionCrush 23:44, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Not many people have 95 prayer, would look bad in the infobox, and you can use some simple math to find the answer (doesn't the prayer interface tell you anyway?). Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 23:45, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Atl east 37k players do, I'm sure many of them read the Wiki, if anything it doesn't have to be shown as Unknown, but instead only appear if the "|Turmoil bonus" in a similar manner to other information, thus only showing the ones with the bonus known, if anything Monster Examine tells the max hit of a monster too doesnt it? ScionCrush 23:52, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
But that doesn't tell you its Strength level, because we have no clue how monster stats are calculated. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 23:54, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
No, lets take for example... Powerslayer A is reading the artible about Greater Demons, he uses Turmoil, however, he would want to know if it gives better bonuses than Piety, because for example, Waterfiends only give a Defence bonus, its simple math. ScionCrush 23:59, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Question - So the proposal is to somehow include this information in the monster's infobox? Suppa chuppa Talk 23:55, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. ScionCrush 23:59, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Evil said you can use some math to figure it out, but what if you don't know the monster's Strength, Attack, and Defence? I think this should be at least considered. --Taneer 00:09, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose infobox - This is excellent information and should go somewhere in the article, but the infobox is the wrong location. The infobox is used for essential information. Bonuses from a high-level prayer that only a handful of people can use is not essential information.

I'd support adding it in another section of the article. For an example of something I'd support, look at the production cost section for the potion pages. Super attack#Production costs for example. That puts the information in the article without needlessly cluttering the infobox. --LiquidTalk 00:18, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the feedback, I've edited the original propposal. ScionCrush 00:28, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose infobox - Per liquid. I don't think this information should go there either. I honestly don't think it would very useful for the majority of attackable NPCs that have this template, and the information could probably be placed somewhere else on the page with better results. Suppa chuppa Talk 00:21, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Just a simple line at the bottom telling how much % it increases your level. I also added a calculator at the Turmoil page. Could someone check it please? I doubt that if you have lvl 99 att/str/def and you fight Nex you would get +165/122.87+165 levels... Oh and as I didn't know if it rounds down or just to the closest whole i just didn't round it down, that needs improvement too.
But, this calculation could as well be used to give the percentages turmoil boosts. I think that seperating it from the infobox is REALLY a bad idea, as what turmoil uses is the combat level (amirite) and that parameter is always filled in for monsters' infoboxes. Then we can simply do the calculation with that combat level which already has been filled in. If we would seperate it from the infobox, however,we would have to add it to 2,023 pages while it could very easily be automated. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 01:06, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

As much as I appreciate the effort for the calculator, it is wrong =S, I havent given a try, but I'm sure the Skelele summoned by Necrotroll would give a very high Strength, high attack and no defence while keeping their combat low, it appears that in low level monsters, their combat formula works in a similar way, however in high level monsters it looks the formula is different, wich is what I'm proposing, however I don't know if the estre % gives the Bonus to YOU based on the MONSTERS level or if the % is based on the monsters level directly, for example, You have +150 stab attack, getting +25% would turn it into +187 stab bonus (from am onster with high attack), or if for example, a monster has +2000 stab bonus and it would add +300 stab to you (wich makes the first option more likely), so until this is figured out, I think it would be good if we add the % added instead of a calculators that calculates a bonus wich we have no basis to calculate =/ (lol redundancy). ScionCrush 01:20, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - Turmoil doesn't work like this, with respect to calculating your maxiumum hit anyway. When you have the max bonus on the prayer tab (32% or 33%, whatever it is), its actually a 23% multiplier and an add-on of 9 levels - i.e. without any other bonuses, it works as , which is then used in the formula. I can't conclusively claim that it works in the same way for attack and defence, but it probably does. Source: Max Hit Formula Thread (archive); there is a discussion on the next page of the thread with a user who took the base formula and developed the bonuses of prayer, special attacks, slayer helm, etc, alone and he found very similar results to the thread creator. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 02:50, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the information Gaz! However my proposal relies on the % that gets added, not on the actual bonus applied, that could be done later on if this is successful. ScionCrush 03:17, January 19, 2011 (UTC)
Could you fix the calc on Turmoil then please gaz? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 08:31, January 19, 2011 (UTC)
That's the problem. A percentage modifier is not added to the base modifier of 1.23 - a static number is added after the multiplier is applied. This works in a distinctly different way, and is incorrect and misleading to show it another way. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 02:02, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
Gaz I think you're not getting me (or vice versa), but lets make it simple, Monster "A" add +10% attack while monster "B" add +15%, thats all the proposal, and if the bonus' are consistent per your level and not The acutual % of the monsters level, its not misleading. ScionCrush 02:49, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
How are you going to find out what a monster adds? What calculation will you use? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 15:32, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
As far as I understand what Gaz is saying, bonuses are consistent monster to monster, say, Graardor will give the same bonuses as a black dragon; also keep the calculator, really useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScionCrush (talk).
Could someone please tell me what the exact calculation is for Turmoil boost? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 10:29, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
The method of it being displayed is misleading. If the percentage displayed for strength is say 28% (5% above base), this is saying that you have 5 (or maybe 4, unsure on anything but max) levels added after the multiplication. This is a significantly larger bonus for lower levels than it is for higher levels, percentage wise (a maxed turmoil with 99 strength and nothing else gives an effective strength of 130.77, where using a multiplier of 1.33 gives 130.68 instead, lower than it should be. In comparison, for 1 strength (possible but unlikely) gets 10.23 effective strength, rather than 1.33 with a 1.33 multiplier, a significant difference. In real terms, with no equipment, this results in a 36.6% higher max hit for the 99 strength person (112→153), and a 64.3% higher max hit for the 1 strength person (14→23)). Jagex displaying Turmoil as a simple percentage rather than how it truly works is probably to fit in the prayer screen properly (other prayers are a simple percentage boost, though the leeches may not be), as well as most players not caring how it works; though I think the type of player that this will be useful for is the type who understands how it works and will probably put the strength value into a max hit calc, thus displaying a simple percentage is incorrect.
We also don't know how Turmoil (or anything else, including prayers, void armour, black mask, etc) works in regards to attack and defence, since we don't have a really reliable accuracy formula developed. It would be speculatory to suggest that they work in a similar way, even if the chances of it working in a similar way is very high.
So, I am opposed to adding it to the infobox [monster], no need to expand the already large infobox; and I am neutral in regards to listing the percentage bonuses elsewhere (such as Turmoil/bonuses or something), as long as there is a clear explanation that this (a simple percentage boost) is not how Turmoil works in regards to strength (unconfirmed but possible for attack and defence), and that they will result in erroneous values if used directly in a maximum hit calculator as a simple percentage boost. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 20:23, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Don't clutter the infoboxes with information that will only be relevant to a small fraction of our readers, especially when the formula is disputed. If anything, you can make a subpage of Turmoil with a JS calc to figure it out, or something to that general effect. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 19:35, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Steler. Real Mad 19:56, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - per Steler, a small fraction of people are able to use turmoil and are still active and use this wiki. It just causes unnecessary space wastage for other users. LordDarkPhantom 20:56, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose article addition, Support calc - The calculator would be something quite easy to do. Infact, I'll go make an example calculator in my sandbox now, I'll post the link in a few minutes. Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 14:50, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Made the calculator at User:Newbie856/sandbox/Turmoil. It's pretty rudimentary and only contains 4 monsters, but shows how it could be done. Only problem though (not really a problem in fact): I don't have turmoil, so I just added random numbers Lol. Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 15:20, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think a calculator like that is needed, a plain sortable table would be just as good or better. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 20:23, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
xD, Why didn't I think about that Lol ? I agree though, a table is better and would allow more people to edit it. A calculator will just be longer to load than a table and will have a huge select field, which would be quite useless. Quest point cape.pngTalk Newbie856 edit count Nomad guideMusic icon.png 20:26, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per all. Matt (t) 02:58, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Closed - There is no consensus to add the Turmoil bonuses at this time. --LiquidTalk 03:10, February 10, 2011 (UTC)