Forum:To hear or not to hear?

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This thread was archived on 18 March 2011 by Suppa chuppa.

This thread is about audio files and in which cases they should be uploaded.

First of all, the preferred format for audio is *.ogg and files cannot be longer than 30 seconds. I believe that is correct. Now, the audio part of the media policies really confused me. I think this should be simplified since some users still upload files that exceed the time limit. The problem is that it makes uploading an audio file seem like a crime, but it does not show any exact rules. Instead, it has links to two sites explaining everything. Unfortunately, nobody is going to read through all that stuff in order to know whether they can upload something or not. Therefore I think it would be beneficial to overhaul that part and change into something everyone can understand (without being half a lawyer), like the policies for images and animations.

Next issue. Would the wiki benefit from all music tracks being uploaded as ogg's (not exceeding the 30 second limit)? I think yes. But the arrival of [[:File:FoG Victory.ogg]] made me quite curious, since it is a jingle that is not a level up music. I think there should be a list of ogg files that can and cannot be uploaded in the policy. Example (note that this is just an example and I do not know what is allowed and what not):

Allowed:

  • Music tracks.
  • Level-up music.
  • Other jingles. (like the FOG example, but also when completing a Temple Trek, encountering a challenge on a Temple Trek, completing that challenge, completing a clue scroll, completing a random event, etc.)
  • Quotes (e.g. Nex or Kal'Gerion demons)

Not allowed:

  • I really don't know anything here. Basically non-runescape.

And a small question? Is it allowed to upload whole music tracks in segments of 30 seconds? So Attack1 part 1, part 2, etc. Things like that should also be stated in the policy.

So, basically... IMPROVE THOSE GUIDELINES!! =D

Discussion

Support - improvement and clarification of audio policy. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 13:24, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Sometimes I'd like to hear music that I haven't unlocked, and really cool voices. Recent uploads SpineTalkGuest book 13:40, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Support - However those jingles, like my File:Level 99 Fireworks.ogg, classify themselves as "very short and unsubstantial ('de minimis')." We cannot upload more than one 30 second portion of a given track. We are still breaking things by using more than 5% of songs (because we don't measure their total length) that are under five minutes long. the only other thing that comes to mind is that this still isn't settled as some believe we have enough tracks, we don't need the midi's from years ago, and people should include the {{Fair use}} when they upload such files. Ryan PM 15:35, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so uploading a 30 second fragment of, say, The Void Stares Back (music track) would be illegal? User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 17:32, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
Essentially, yes. However while we follow 30 seconds I don't think Jagex will bite our heads off for staying with the 30 seconds of audio we currently use. I'm just saying we shouldn't do more than one capture per song, using fade-ins and fade-outs without debate on which part of said song is best. Ryan PM 18:29, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I doubt we have any plausible defense for even 30 seconds of Jagex's audio because their permission only extends to images. Since removal of 30-second audio tracks would be vehemently opposed, and since it's not such a terrible case as others have been, I'd prefer if we just don't extend beyond 30-second clips.

I also wonder if a de minimis defense would work on short audio. In Stanford, the example provided for a de minimis defense is that "several copyrighted photographs appeared in the film, prompting the copyright owner of the photographs to sue the producer of the movie. The court held that the photos 'appear fleetingly and are obscured, severely out of focus, and virtually unidentifiable.'" In our case, however, the fireworks jingle is only a few seconds, but it's perfectly clear, and it's the sole subject of the "work" which we've hosted. Maybe de minimis would work if fireworks were the ringtone of our TV show's star and the phone went off during an episode, but I doubt it would protect our jingles as they are now. Leftiness 19:34, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Support 30 second limit - Basically per Leftiness. I agree that anything beyond something like the 3 second fireworks sound for a 99 level up or the GE update music is probably stretching fair use a bit too much, and that 30 seconds is definitely indefensible. However, as he said, there is little chance at getting 30 seconds reduced, so I suppose we should keep it that way until Jagex comes complaining. --LiquidTalk 23:22, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. But... what exactly do you support? User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:26, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Lower - 30 seconds is pushing it; we'll be bordering on ending up at the same place we did with dialogue pages - copying material directly from the game. Real Nub 08:02, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a noisy minority - I haven't actually studied my opposition much, or perhaps there's a sizeable part of the community that would completely disregard law in favor of consensus, but, in my experience, there's an even larger portion that would prefer to ask forgiveness than permission, so to speak. That being so, it's difficult to argue the legal case. Law being complicated as it is, I expect the only reason we removed dialogue pages was because every semi-law-savvy user was in favor, and, since a conflict results in books and megabytes of debate, the legal case seems to be generally frowned upon - or at least unappreciated. Leftiness 21:20, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Support - As the uploader of the FoG file, I think this is a good idea, as most jingles are not more than 30 seconds, if any. I am not well acquainted with the copyright policies if this wikia, but as per the songs that exist in 30 second clips, these jingles, though representing an entire clip, are far less original as they consist of less material. ContributionsBunnies1230Talk 21:50, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

They are no less original by their length, and I wonder if it's worse to upload jingles as it's the entire work - not just a clip. Law is based on technicalities. Leftiness 22:54, February 1, 2011 (UTC)
...what? User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:20, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
Bunnies stated that "the songs that exist in 30 second clips, though representing an entire clip, are far less original as they consist of less material." As such, I responded that "they are no less original by their length," by which I mean that they are just as original as any other original work, be it 1 second or 1 hour in length. I also stated that "I wonder if it's worse to upload jingles as it's the entire work - not just a clip," by which I mean that it may be worse to upload 3 second jingles than it is to upload 30 second clips because the uploaded jingle includes the entire work, thereby going against the substantiality part of fair use, which I regardlessly doubt we have for reasons I stated above. Maybe it would have been better if I'd written "... if it's worse to upload a jingle because it's the entire work ... ?" Leftiness 23:30, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
Ah, I get it. Of course, it'd be ridiculous to upload 0,2 second of a jingle, as that could be 5%... User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 13:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
I believe I was referring to the short jingles as "less original," rather than the 30 second clips. But I understand your point, Leftiness...somewhat. ContributionsBunnies1230Talk 03:48, February 9, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Per law-literate comments. 222 talk 08:55, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Closed - Musical files, jingles, and sound bites directly related to RuneScape may be uploaded under the ogg file extension as long as they do not exceed the 30-second limit. Audio files that do not meet these criteria will not be permitted. Additionally, RS:IMP has been updated to reflect this. Suppa chuppa Talk 07:28, March 18, 2011 (UTC)