Forum:The Independent RuneScape Fansite Alliance

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This thread was archived on 7 June 2010 by Aburnett.

As I mentioned in another thread here a few days ago, I am setting up a fansite organization. I would like to invite the RS Wiki to participate, and upon discussing this briefly with a Wiki regular, he suggested that I post a thread here seeking input.

The Independent RuneScape Fansite Alliance (IRuFA) has two primary goals. First, it is to be a resource for RS fans, who will be able to use the information it collects to find both the well-known and lesser-known fansites in one place. Second, it is intended to be a way for fansite owners and administrators to meet each other, cooperate, discuss issues, and share information.

IRuFA is a very simple concept and will be kept as simple as possible. On the domain IRuFA.org I will maintain a simple website containing some basic information about IRuFA and a directory of participating websites. Any site will be allowed to be listed as long as it meets a small set of simple conditions: chiefly, it needs to be a site that is of interest to RS players, and that doesn't encourage illegal activity or rule-breaking. I am hoping to have sections listing general RS fansites (like Tip.it, the RS Wiki and Zybez), specialty RS sites (like RuneScoop), RS related blogs and also clan websites (as long as they are readable by the public).

Over time, I will hopefully expand the information to include more details about sites to help readers locate exactly what they are looking for.

IRuFA will remain independent of Jagex. Sites on Jagex's official list will be welcome, as will those not on the list. The goal is not to replace Jagex's list but to create a superset.

There will be no cost to join IRuFA. I will ask only that sites that participate place a small button on their site in a visible location indicating that they are members, but that will be optional and not a requirement to join.

I will absorb any costs of time and money required to run the site. No financial contributions will be taken and no ads run on the site.

I'm hoping to launch the site by the end of April, and would like to line up sites that are interested in participating so that when the site goes live there is something in the directory aside from "here's where the sites will go". :) Please let me know if there is interest.

Qeltar 13:26, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly I cant speak for the owners of the RSWiki and this is my personal opinion... How is this any different to the hundreds of Runescape topsites already available or the old webrings? The larger sites are unlikely to get onboard for fear of losing audience share or relictance to put big links and logos for other sites so what you'll end up with is just a huge list of poor quaity fansites all scorunging for a handful of visitors. --Gold ore.png Mercifull UK serv.svg (Talk) 13:49, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
"Owners of the RSWiki" - RSWiki has no owners. bad_fetustalk 14:50, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
Pfft semantics. I don't speak for the whole community then. --Gold ore.png Mercifull UK serv.svg (Talk) 16:50, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
I can't really say how it would be different from any other specific site unless you have one to point to for comparison. But when I try to look for lists of RS sites, what I mostly find are sites trying to "sell cheats" and all of that other nonsense. That's not what this is about. And I guess I'm a bit more optimistic about it than you are. Anyway, the only one who would really be out anything if it fails is me. :) Qeltar 16:53, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
Essentially you are asking us to make this an alternative to the Official JaGex Fansite List, so that we can organize events, other happenings etc... with Zybez and other unrecognized fansites? --Whiplash 21:48, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
In its initial incarnation, it would simply be a categorized listing of sites, but I would also like to create a forum for site owners to interact. In time I think this would be a valuable resource. Qeltar 21:14, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - While I do favor promoting the growth of fansites, I do not like the idea of bigger fansites (like us) losing attention and players to lesser-known fansites. While this may seem greedy of me, I just simply do not like having to go to different fansites to find the information I want. The best and most ideal solution would be to just have one superb fansite with all the information you need. This idea would just "leech" players off the bigger fansites and draw attention to the smaller ones. I don't think too many fansites will help at all, the domain owners are just wasting their time and money (no offense) for a cause that is good but an effort that is futile. Just stick to the bigger fansites and let the smaller ones die out. Fruit.Smoothie 23:41, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

That is based on a complete misunderstanding of how internet traffic works in general. Why would creating a database of useful Runescape fansites (meeting certain quality standards) funnel traffic from one website to another? Whether anyone likes it or not there is no single supreme Runescape resource that meets every persons needs and any networking we can do will only increase our search engine ranking and overall popularity. Its more likely that some "small" website that you would prefer to ignore has a superb quality guide or unheard of feature that could be very useful to many people. We need to detach from the idea that someone needs to profit from another loss, and instead realize that there is always a mutual benefit in adding your own link to as many places as possible. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 00:23, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that really does strike me as selfish. This entire site is based on voluntary contributions; how is it fair or reasonable to expect people to donate their time and effort to work for the greater good of the Wiki, but be unwilling to have the Wiki do a tiny bit for the greater good of the RS community? Regardless, though, the button linking to IRuFA is *optional*. The most important thing is simply agreeing to be listed, which will provide more traffic here and cost the Wiki absolutely nothing. Qeltar 21:08, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
Comment - Fair enough, but the point I'm trying to illustrate is that those "tiny bits" won't do much at all; I don't know if this is just me but I haven't been to more than five Runescape fansites in my entire life, and of those five they were the most recognized and known, I just don't see this as being a realistic idea seeing as how there are hundreds and hundreds of fansites that are low-quality and receive extremely low attention to start off with. So, say we all pitch in and help our little "brothers and sisters," what will this accomplish in the end? The same information will just be distributed among different sites, the same voices, the same opinions, the same ideas, the exact same userbase. Besides, the title of this "association" seems to be a paradox of itself. I know that you want us to stay away from anything having to do with Jagex, but you have to admit that even if we do accomplish something and help out other fansites, what exactly will we be helping them with? I feel like this will be a tireless task that would require much effort. Look at it this way, say this thing really does happen, this "coagulation" of sites is appended, and we get to visit these sites. The problem here is, what exactly would we be doing on these sites? Chatting, discussing topics that AREN'T Jagex-related somehow? I don't see the point of this. I know you dislike Jagex, but you have to admit we can't do much without them if we want to accomplish anything Runescape-related. Information and guides are the best we've got, other than that I don't see us being any different from social-networking sites, for example. This idea seems good, and I encourage you the best of luck if you are willing to go through with it entirely, but I hope what I have just said won't happen. Fruit.Smoothie 01:35, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
So because you do things a certain way, everyone else does? My example is a polar opposite. I go to unknown websites all the time for tips and tricks, and like I said some of them are abundantly helpful and provide things that we don't have here. As for what is accomplished: exposure. I assume from what I know of qeltar that every freewebs Runescape page wont be accepted. If we add our link to a database of other equal or better quality websites, all we get is free promotion. I don't know how or why Jagex would not approve of this and regardless it is none of their business. Your entire point of view is based on fallacious thinking and speculation. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 02:11, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
This leads up back to my first contention: exposure of what? What exactly are we exposing? I would assume, that being one of the most popular RS fansites, that people would already know about us. You would assume that one would know the RSW first than some newly-created user domain called irufa.org. Also, this has nothing to do with Jagex opposing this, in the end, your main argument hinges on the fact that the RSW will benefit, this begs the question of how and to what degree other websites will be affected and if we will really be benefiting, as you mentioned in your last statement, this is just pure speculation to begin with; are you doing it purely out of free promotion on behalf of this Wiki, or is there another purpose to this that I'm just not getting? Fruit.Smoothie 05:08, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but I continue to have difficulty in understanding why you are opposing this. It costs the Wiki nothing -- you are objecting to merely being present on a list of RS fansites? Because there is no obligation for anyone here to do anything at all. You seem to be reading far more into this than is actually there, and I'm at a loss. Qeltar 03:53, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
"...it is intended to be a way for fansite owners and administrators to meet each other, cooperate, discuss issues, and share information." If that is so, I am not quite sure as to what cooperation would be required seeing as how fansites function mutually-exclusive of each other, also, what issues would we exactly be discussing seeing as how userbases would be separate to begin with, and what kind of information would be shared that normally couldn't be found on the Wiki? Please note, however, that I mean no disrespect to any of you here, but I am merely questioning this idea which has yet to been seen. I would be all for it, if my questions can be answered satisfactorily. Fruit.Smoothie 05:08, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Nothing would be "required" at all (other than having a quality RS site, which obviously isn't an issue). The aim here is to provide opportunities, not impose obligations. Qeltar 13:41, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
The entire purpose of a database like this is to promote everyones name, search engine ranking, and pageviews/new members. Just by being in the list and having a link to the database any of qeltars visitors could potentially become new wiki editors. Aside from that linking up with other fansites would also increase our search engine popularity. We could also intermingle with other fansite communities we never even knew existed and maybe get more attendees at our wikifests and other ingame events that other fansites may not host. As another example, some of our features like the GE market watch, exchange prices, bots etc are spearheaded by editors who at one time never knew the wiki existed and one day joined and began offering their talents. Why not reach out to them? Oh also, I doubt every visitor to said database will be a member of another fansite, I bet many of them will have never visited/used any of the popular websites before and could just happen to choose the wiki. All in all there is no negative and fansites are not mutually exclusive. So insist they are in pretty close minded and is the same attitude responsible for made up fansite competition. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 08:39, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment/Support - I like the idea of participating in this. Can you post a live demo on the work in progress or finished site so we can see if it is actually going to be a professionally designed, easily navigated database? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 00:25, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a demo, and this is going to be kept extremely simple. While I will certainly aim for easy naviation, this will not be a professionally designed site, simply because I am covering all the costs out of pocket and I'm not in a position to pay to have the site designed. That may come later. Qeltar 21:14, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose affiliation - It seems like you've got a fun idea and best of luck with it. But for me, the unique part of our community is that it's a Wiki, and with that comes no exclusivity, no alliances, no political stances. People of any background can edit, be it a Jagex mod, a regular wikian or even people from another fan site. We've lost a lot of that uniqueness to ridiculous endeavours such as clan chat and some kind of perceived "rivalry" with Rune HQ (how our culture degraded to THAT point I probably don't want to know), and also through trying to be more than a Wiki. Being "just a wiki" is the best thing we can be. I see joining your network as just another step towards joining "the league of ordinary fansites." Endasil (Talk) @  05:33, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, but I have to say I really don't understand your objection. The Wiki has been working for months to get on Jagex's official list, despite Jagex making very specific demands. I am making none; I'd just like to be able to list the Wiki next to other sites (and I've already got one of the big sites agreeing to participate). And if you dislike rivalry, then you should be in favor of increased participation and communication, which is what this is about, in part. Qeltar 21:14, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
I would say that the Wiki as a whole hasn't been working for months to be on Jagex' official list. I don't see much use in that either, and voice my opinions on that thread. It's not that I'm against rivalry, I'm against our site having a culture that allows rivalry. It means we're being more than a Wiki. And for the record, I think things like Wikifests and friendly competition with other fansites are as bad symptoms of our culture. That said, I don't mind people doing it, I just oppose to it happening in an official capacity. Anyway, given that you've said you require nothing of us, I would say that I could support affiliation (I mean, you really don't even need our OK to do that) while opposing a visible link back. Endasil (Talk) @  17:14, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
The link back is entirely optional, as I said. It would be a nice thing to do but isn't mandatory. And yes, I could just list you without asking, but that's not how I do things. Qeltar 21:06, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Do you work for Jagex endasil? Why would we not add his link to our links section if he is linking to us? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 02:21, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
No, but thanks for proving my point that we're getting too much into "alliance" mode. I object to something and you accuse me of working for Jagex, as if they're somehow the enemy? I've already explained my position. Read it and ask any questions you may have. Endasil (Talk) @  03:58, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
How does providing a link back to his website (a simple courtesy given that he is requiring nothing of us), create more of an alliance or create a competitive culture? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 04:55, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? You honestly don't understand how linking to and becoming part of "The Independent RuneScape Fansite Alliance" might be construed as being in an alliance? Endasil (Talk) @  05:19, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
Its just a name, not an actual alliance in the sense that we are allied and part of something. We are already linked up with several other really popular Runescape websites, are we part of some alliance just because we give them a link exchange? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:40, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
I've already said repeatedly that there is *no obligation* for anyone at the Wiki to do anything. In all honesty, your opposition comes across to me as being little more than paranoia that I'm somehow going to force something on you that I didn't advertise -- as if I could if I wanted to (I don't) and as if you couldn't just withdraw if I did. Qeltar 11:22, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
And I've already said that I support affiliation if it means we don't need to link back. I don't know why you guys are saying I'm opposed to that. If you truly don't want anything else, then this conversation is done. I've already said I'll support it without linking back (though I was more concerned about an omni-present link than one on a links page) so why are you and Tebuddy continuing this as if I said something different? Endasil (Talk) @  15:23, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
An omnipresent link? What in the lords name are you talking about? The reason I keep posting about what I think you are saying is because you are being very indirect. Do you support affiliation yes/no? Do you support a link back yes/no and explain exactly why and how giving a simple return link to the links section is bad? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 23:46, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support affiliation - Qeltar has generally done an excellent job with the websites that he has been responsible over, so I'm not worried about quality here nor some back-handed deal. Concerns about losing "fans" to other sites are not a concern to me and if anything it is the larger sites that will get better. More importantly, this would allow for some "specialization" with different fansite communities, as certainly not all fansites are created equal nor do they have features which are all in common. Emphasizing these differences can certainly be useful in a number of ways, so I hope that we are at least open to other fansites and what they are doing. Anything which helps to grow and connect the fansite community is always of value and shouldn't be dissed. --Robert Horning 18:10, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose affiliation - Per Endasil. --LiquidTalk 21:58, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I like this idea very much. I have yet to have seen an organized website like this, and Qeltar is organized from what I have seen. Of course, it's not my decision, and I don't even think my vote - if it can be called that - even matters, but I might as well state my decision anyway. ~Elite-Nachos~The Gnome~ 22:46, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Fruit.Smoothie --KgnomesTalk 22:51, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Support - This seems like free promotion for the wiki to me. The main problem that some people seem to be having with this idea is that they think it will draw attention and traffic away from the Wiki. I don't really understand why that would happen, and it seems like this could only benefit the wiki, as Qeltar will presumably be doing all of the work to make the IRuFA. Cook Me Plox Talk 05:23, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Fruit and Endasil. bad_fetustalk 18:03, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support - We haven't had problems with the affiliations we have with other websites - how would this hurt us? It will probably give us more attention, and more attention -> more editors -> more information. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:20, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support - It sounds nice, and if things go bad, we can always end the affiliation. (davelopo) 20:36, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Endasil. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 06:10, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Endasil's position makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe you can try explaining better what exactly your opposition is based on, given that absolutely nothing is required of the Wiki? Honestly, I'm absolutely baffled by the reaction I'm getting from so many people in what I thought was a group of netizens who valued community and voluntary contribution. It's what I would have expected from a very insular and threatened group of bureaucrats and not an open community. Qeltar 11:22, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
"It's what I would have expected from a very insular and threatened group of bureaucrats and not an open community." - -_-, no offense taken of course I understand what your point is.-- 14:18, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
I can clarify my position if you want, Qeltar. It's not that your proposal in particular has me concerned any more than other changes that have happened over the years. A Wiki to me should be the most non-threatening environment for somebody to join and make edits on. Anything that turns us into more than a Wiki is both baggage and makes people feel more uncomfortable about joining. If we have an alliance, then that is just another thing that a person must accept when joining our Wiki. And I can tell you this for sure: if the Wiki had the over-developed sense of identity and politics that I see now when I had joined, I never would have joined the Wiki. And so I can extend that to expect that there are many people like me out there that are just completely turned off by how much of a Wiki we aren't these days. Endasil (Talk) @  15:56, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
Appreciate the response, but I honestly believe you are very much overthinking this. Qeltar 12:24, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Robert Horning. Also, I've seen Qeltar's work before, and I don't see why we would oppose, to be honest. As other supporters have said earlier in this discussion, Qeltar is excellent at designing and maintaining websites, not to mention that his "soapbox" articles that can be found on the forums are thoughtfully written with the reader in mind, something that is unfortunately rare on the forums at the moment. I truly believe that if we were to allow Qeltar to list the Wiki on his website, we'd get more traffic and more users, so it's a win-win situation, I think. [1] N7 Elite (Ready to talk now?) 13:50, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support - The issue we had in the earlier days was being too sheltered and in essence living in a bubble. Interaction with the other communities is good, if there's an issue with behaviour, then those negatively affecting the wiki culture can be reprimanded and set straight. Also to those worried we'll lose contributors, if this wiki is truly better than other sites we have nothing to fear, if it's not, that is our fault and we need to deal with it, not pull a page out of China's playbook and shut off the outside world.--

Helm of neitiznot (charged).png Azaz129 Crystal shield.png Talk Edits Contribs

14:18, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Robert Horning. I personally think you are trustworthy because, if I'm correct, you were the author of the excellent, informative site called TruthScape. And hey, it looks like it's back in the form of... RuneScoop! =D It's great that you decided to get it back up. I'll definitely be sure to take a look at it in my spare time.  Tien  20:37, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - No action will be taken. Lack of consensus, as well as no additional details provided by User:Qeltar. He may request the topic re-opened if he returns with additional information. --Aburnett(Talk) 19:27, June 7, 2010 (UTC)