Forum:Strategy pages brainstorm

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Forums: Yew Grove > Strategy pages brainstorm
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This thread was archived on 2 February 2014 by Liquidhelium.

Strategy pages suck! The 2 worst parts about them are:

  • We have no standardization for them. There's no guidelines for how to format them. If we want them to be good pages, we oughta have some outline to follow.
  • Strategy guides don't seem tailored to a common demographic. Guides are often written with the absolute best gear in mind, but, more often than not, those reading these guides don't have access to it. We've already heard complaints about this on Cook's thread.

I'm hoping we can make this a project to tackle for this year. It's going to be a fairly big one, so don't expect that this will be the last we hear of this. If we put as much effort into this as was put into the money making guides, the end result will be worth every joule put into it.

So obviously, this is a brainstorm. It's the best way to get started and no idea is a bad one. I'm looking for ideas on literally everything related to strategy pages: format, new templates, usefulness of images, monsters to cover, etc. For all intensive intents and purposes, we're starting over with these guides, so let's hear what we want to see done with them. Let's give each other constructive feedback within this thread (but let's just remember to be nice).

Of course, you guys shouldn't do all the thinking, so here's some things I've considered:

  • Have a general monster strategy page that explains how to kill monsters in general. One for each combat style that explains the basics of what equipment to use at what level, what abilities to use and when and why. All that good stuff. Not every monster has a special strategy; a myriad of pages could end up working with the same exact strategy.
    • With this in mind: delete/redirect any existing monster strategy pages that could function with the general guide.
  • Additional Subpages/Sections of strategy guides tailored to different combat tiers.
  • Something needs to be done with how we display recommended equipment. It's absolutely awful, but I have no ideas. This is just something I want as much thought as possible for.


Brain↯ MolMan 18:04, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Mol's having a brain defies all laws known to man. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 08:16, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

My thoughts - here's a few of my opinions on this:

  1. The general strategy page is a good idea.
    1. I'd suggest that this should include suggested ability set ups for 1 handed melee/range/mage + shield, dual-wield melee/range/mage and 2-handed melee/range/mage.
  2. Splitting the page into tiers would be good, because it means you can direct people to the right section for the armour they can use.
    1. Listing the armour in each tier in ascending order, rather than the descending order we currently use

If I think of anything further, I'll add it or mention it in S:C. Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 18:12, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should include a section for ranged, magic and melee where applicable on the strategy pages. It would be handy to cover all combat styles, and keep a general house style for all them. Perhaps creating new templates can help achieve this, e.g. the suggested equipment in order from best to worst. I also think it would be handy to add images to those pages, such as to make safespots and whatnot easier for the reader to see by looking at an image of them. Being an avid PvMer myself, I'd love to help us achieve this and hopefully we can get all them neat and consistent this year. Ozank Cx 14:23, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

Support AnselaJonla's idea has merit. Tiering it to 'High Level', 'Intermediate', then Melee/Range/Magic/Defensive would make sense. I also agree, that a lot of them seem to copy/paste info from 3 different areas that would just be redundant. If you need to suggest food, the suggestions typically just fall in to bring the best food you can (bosses), some good food (like Sharks for high level normal monsters), or just something for healing (like a Bunyip or Lobsters/swords for Waterfiends)--Deltaslug (talk) 14:32, January 8, 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Hopefully you guys will be able to understand what I mean to fix the suggested equipment. (I do have visual aid).

Basically I want to have it where you could input "Superior tetsu body" and it shows up in an interface that looks something like: [1] (suggested gear for bandos solos from the strategy page). You go through and input each of the individual items you want into a template or something (I'm not a wiki expert, I'm sorry) and they come spitting out the other side. However, the downfall there is the base guy remain looking the same.

In a more ideal situation, it would be like: [2]. However, I realize it is impractical to have 4+ sets of gear photos taken for every single way of doing every single boss/activity whatever. An advantage of this second type is showing the inventory+gear+what stats should look like in the middle.

I don't know if it's possible to do it with just some sort of template or if pictures are required. The nice part about doing it without pictures is that you could click on the piece of gear and it could take you to the related page. Something like the first photo on the top of Worn Equipment. I'm not sure how feasible this idea is. But maybe it can get us going in the right direction. Also, if the gear changes over time/Jagex ruins stats of something, no new pictures would need to be taken, just a line on a page could be changed. If the links don't show up or you need clarification, let me know and I'll do my best to work with you. HaloTalk 00:36, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

The problem with this is that we don't have a database to pull numbers from. I was able to make a prototype that uses 1 set of gear statically defined in the page's source itself. It's overly convoluted and I don't like it too much, but it works... sorta. Pictures would be a bit more work to add. It would involve "including" another template. Easily possible, but not something I want to worry about right now because an item name works perfectly. It should be able to be modified to accept different inputs (with their exact name). It would have problems if it met a switchfo box... problems I'm not sure are possible to fix with how I'm fetching the numbers. I asked Juey about making a JavaScript thingy using code similar to item compare to do this task, but apparently that's hard to do as well? Even if such a script *is* possible, I don't see it getting created anytime soon. This is an amazing idea, and you're not the only one to have thought of it, but, sadly, I don't see it coming into fruition any time soon. MolMan 14:30, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Could we just suggest "Level 50 Gear/Armor or better recommended, for effectiveness Level 70+"?--Deltaslug (talk) 14:46, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Or a "For Combat Style A use Level B or Better, for Combat Style X use Level Y or Better, any other gear is not reccomended."? --Deltaslug (talk) 14:48, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
That's probably a good general idea, but an equipment builder would be an awesome thing to have on the wiki, even if not for strategy pages. MolMan 14:52, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
Like mol said, the problem with making it easy to put stats of things on a page is the retrieval of those stats. Basically, because the stats are filled in on the page itself, any template, script, or other equipment builder we would want to make, would have to search through the whole page, or atleast the page's contents, and then interpret that and give us some output. Now, that is exactly what the current item compare (the one Quarenon originally made) does, but that system would be INCREDIBLY slow for loading multiple items at once, and it would be really hard or impossible to customise the data via templates (ie. impossible to edit by regular users). So basically, if you'd want to get the stats from a bunch of items, it would need basically the same amount of time you'd need to load every single page of that list yourself. Try opening Special:Random in a new tab a few dozen times, and you'll see that this would be really bad for the load time (and it would also create significant lag for the viewers that are also playing RS, which seems to become laggier the older it gets). So, retrieving large amounts of stats is out of the question simply for the reason this would be very laggy and slow to load.
Now, if you would just want to load a single item's stats for showing it on the page, that would be technically possible using the same methods the item compare script uses (like mol said). So yes, this is technically possible. There are a few limitations though: 1) The script would load after the page itself has finished loading. It'd be one of those things where you see the blank box first, and then a short moment after the page has loaded, you'd see the stats. 2) This would rely 100% on the format in which the template is set up on the page. Unexpected changes in the way the template's code is made on the page could potentionally break it. 3) We'd have to get someone to actually make the thing.
Especially the third part will probably be a big obstacle, since this is a quite big script. It would have a whole bunch of requirements to meet, and I think making a script like this might take quite a lot of time. If there's anyone willing and able to do this though, I'd like to welcome them to actually make it.
TL;DR: Loading lots of data is really hard with JS (perhaps mol's DPL thing would work, but DPL is not known for its speed either). Loading data for single items would technically be possible, and already exists on the item compare script. For any script like this, the main obstacle is probably going to be that it will probably take quite a lot of time to make, and so far nobody has volunteered to do it.
JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 15:30, January 14, 2014 (UTC)
DPL is much faster than exploding the page a bunch of times. Equipment tables/Legs is quite fast so long as you don't purge it, which shouldn't be necessary since the stats are unlikely to change often. I don't see retrieving stats as a significant obstacle. ʞooɔ 00:52, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Comment Guess I just want 'simplification'. Don't bother suggesting gear in itself. Just Suggest: Combat Style >> recommended gear level (not itemized gear, level of gear) >> best effect gear level. 'maybe' tack on Slayer Item if it applies. There are too many items in game now. Everything is either Tank or Power or Hybrid/All. EoC rendered having these gear layouts obsolete since you can't really mix and match str/dmg/def as much anymore. Plus yes, some players can't afford or won't use most Level 70+ gears for whatever reason, so no need to make a reader feel like they are not a player just because they use say Black D-hide or PoP armor instead of the more expensive GWD armors.--Deltaslug (talk) 18:21, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

Closed - The storm seems to be over now. Users who see issues with strategy pages are free to improve them. --LiquidTalk 19:57, February 2, 2014 (UTC)