Forum:Standardising boss strategy guides

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Forums: Yew Grove > Standardising boss strategy guides

Boss strategy guides are not standardised very well. I feel like it would be helpful to readers to introduce a standard format for these guides; this would form a part of the style guide.

A. Section break down

First I'd like to establish what the main sections of a strategy page should be and how they should be ordered; each guide will of course vary and have different subsections of these but I would like to establish a consensus on where gear etc. recommendations should be placed on a page and whether people find that it makes most sense to combine mechanics and strategy so that information about how to deal with each mechanic is presented along with the description of the mechanic or have information split into separate sections. There are a couple of different ways this could be done:

  1. Requirements/recommendations > Mechanics > Strategy (e.g. Barrows/Strategies; General Graardor/Strategies)
  2. Requirements/recommendations > Strategy (combined with mechanics) (e.g. Telos, the Warden/Strategies)
  3. Mechanics > Strategy > Requirements/recommendations (e.g. The Magister/Strategies (?))
  4. Strategy (combined with mechanics) > Requirements/recommendations (e.g. Kerapac, the bound/Strategies)
  5. Something else?

B. Hard mode guides

Another issue is whether a dedicated hard mode guide should be created for bosses with hard modes or whether this should be incorporated into the regular mode guide. I am proposing here that we split or separate guides dependent on volume of information that they contain and amount of overlap in them - most likely that this will apply to low level bosses - and use rfm/rfs if necessary for particular guide; however this still leaves a design question:

  1. Combine regular and hard mode guides; add hard mode specific subsections to each section of the guide (e.g. Giant mole/Strategies)
  2. Combine regular and hard mode guides; hard mode in separate section below the regular mode strategy (e.g. Arch-Glacor/Strategies)

C. Recommendations section

Finally, I could use others' input on how best to present gear recommendations, which is something that users often find poor in our current guides. There are also a couple of different main options here:

  1. Standard gear tables/invent set ups (e.g. Corporeal Beast/Strategies) - could be replaced with a generic template i.e. {{PvM generic equipment}} to reduce maintenance.
  2. Use new template to show required and/or recommended equipment (e.g. Rex Matriarchs/Strategies)
  3. Plain text descriptions, linking back to generic PvM resources i.e. Recommended equipment for PvM (e.g. King Black Dragon/Strategies).
  4. Some sort of combination of the above

Please let me know if there's anything else to discuss here that I missed. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelTalk page 15:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion[edit source]

A. Section break down - I support point 2 (merged attacks and strategies) and point 5 (phases section).

  • Separating out the various attacks (using a tabber component) is useful because players can learn about each attack separately (aka. mechanics) rather than being forced to read a long blurb with jumbled up advice on various attacks. We also get a chance to mention the game message (if any), prayer required and add a nice GIF showing that specific attack.
  • It also seems to make sense to add advice on how to deal with the attack (aka. strategy) on the same tabber, so players can learn what happens as well as how to respond.
  • If the boss has an attack rotation, it seems like a good idea to have it nearby and clickable and switch the attack tabber to the relevant tab, so players can click on an attack in the rotation table and see how it works. This has been implemented for Telos.
  • Point 5? - Yes, if the boss has Phases, then apart from the Attacks section we also need a Phases section where we can explain the approximate strategies for each phase. This can be seen in the Araxxor or Telos articles.

B. Hard mode guides - I support a case-by-case application of either point 1 or point 2.

  • Why point 1? If the HM guide has only a few small strategies to add to the NM attacks, then the HM strategies can be placed inline along with the NM attacks itself. (like Giant mole)
  • Why point 2? I think a lot of people fail to discover the "hard mode" guides when they are a seperate article. My only contention here is to merge the "hard mode" (HM) guides with the "normal mode" (NM) guides, by keeping them on the same article. As various editors have pointed out, there is no need to confuse new players with HM advice, and no neeed to provide useless NM info to expert players who want to learn HM strategies, therefore NM and HM can be seperate sections on the same page. (like Arch Glacor)

C. Recommendations section - I support point 2 combined with point 3 (linking to generic PvM resources).

  • At risk of being biased here (I created the templates :P) I would like us to agree on a standardized template system that can be used to show boss recommendations (gear, weapons, perks, potions) as well as basic requirements (level reqs or other mandatory gearing). Many of the bosses have common traits that would be nice to handle in a templated way (poisonable, anti-poison required, anti-fire required, slayer helm boost, etc).
  • We should get rid of the old "recommendations" section as it is already covered by generic resources (except for boss-specific presets/gearing/perks/action-bars)
  • We should get rid of the old "equipment" section that many users had an issue with, in favour of the generic resources

I personally thank you for moderating this subject as it is complex, and various editors have conflicting but highly relevant views. Integrating these views is a top priority in order for us to build an optimal wiki experience.

Wonderfl (talk) 08:01, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Section A: Support

  • 5. Requirements/recommendations > Strategy (Mechanics combined with Strategy).

First of all, starting with Requirements/recommendations is probably the best thing for boss guides. When someone is looking to learn a boss, the first thing that they should check is if they have all the required gear as well as getting as much recommended gear as possible. Putting this first will help people see if they have the required stats/items/etc for the boss. Secondly we would have the Strategy section which would consist of Mechanics combined with Strategy. The reason for this is when you are learning a boss, you start with the mechanics, what they do and how to avoid them, and then you move onto strategies and other things that can help with kill times, damage, survivability, etc.

Section B: Against - another option provided

  • Other:

Normal Mode and Hard Mode guides to stay separated. My main reasoning for this is to not overwhelm the player. If I was learning a normal mode boss and was reading through the mechanics I don't think having anything related to hard mode would help at all. Then for hard mode, there could even be a brief Key Changes from NM to HM which can go over things like, Boss hp is x amount instead of y, damage dealt is doubled, such and such, so on and so forth.

Section C: Support

  • 2. Use new template to show required and/or recommended equipment.

I really really like this new template for the recommended equipment. For starters, a lot of people using the wiki for boss guides/strategies are looking for this information, if they can use cinders, what style is most effecting and this layout is much easier to see than the infobox which can take a bit of scrolling to find certain information. I think this kind of template is exactly what we need for the recommendations section. With the only gear tables, a lot of them were just copy and paste and some slots were not accurate with what is actually bis. All in all I think this is a much needed change to the current bossing strategies. and I am in support of Section A & C, but against the two options in Section B. Wand of the praesul.pngZ o w o Erethdor's grimoire.png 00:21, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Comment - discussed a little on Discord and I think most people like the idea of something like C2 to replace the recommended equipment section (and the idea of guides that are generally more visual and easy to follow e.g. like how the mechanics are organised in Telos, the Warden/Strategies). The idea of using this section to show key information about the boss like weaknesses, whether prayer switching is required and whether it can be poisoned also seemed to be positively received.

I think it would be helpful to identify what exactly should go in this section. I am concerned with things like potion and prayer recommendations that it makes it seem like these things are hard requirements where they might not be - for example on Arch-Glacor/Strategies hard mode states that praesul curses are highly recommended and as someone who hasn't attempted this boss before this makes me think that I couldn't kill the boss effectively. I would rather stick to things that are definite, hard requirements to kill the boss being listed and leaving out things that are "nice to have, would make it easier, but not essential".

I would guess we would have sections for: recommended minimum combat levels; other requirements - e.g. levels required to reach GWD1 bosses; recommended minimum armour; recommended minimum weapons; immunities; recommended combat style to use (could potentially be in armour/weapons section instead); weakness/susceptibility; poison immune or not; prayer switching required or not; boss specific boosts. I would still like to link back to Recommended equipment for PvM within this for most of the generic things. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelTalk page 21:11, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment - I do really like having the visual short form representation for the most important things (achieved with {{PvM recommendations}} as on Arch-Glacor/Strategies), and, like Isobel, I really like the visual representations of mechanics as well. I do agree that for the recommendations we need fairly specific guidelines on what too include especially with regards to what is necessary vs just nice to have, or necessary for continuos kills. Also agree that equipment should link back to the Recommended equipment for PvM pages as much as possible. Seers headband 2 chathead.png Elessar2 (talk) 11:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment - Additionally to what Elessar wrote with linking to the Recommended equipment for PvM, I think we should also always try and link to the PvM unlock guide as this is one thing that I recommend/send to everyone getting into pvm. This unlock guide was made in collaboration with PVME and is the best order for gear upgrades in any style. I know that there is a link for this at the top of the recommended equipment page but a lot of people seem to skip past the very top section and go right to the tables. Wand of the praesul.pngZ o w o Erethdor's grimoire.png 01:05, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment - Hi! I just wanted to say a BIG thank you for this. It's something I didn't even know I wanted for editing but it makes adding requirements for PvM, like gear etc., SO MUCH EASIER. I do have a couple of points! I noticed that 'partial' quest completion isn't part of the template, and 'recommended styles' isn't either, both of which would be super useful for Nex, since she has the half-way through Troll Stronghold requirement and the Ranged meta recommendation - I left a bunch of text here in grey for more info! Walk here Chee (skill: 2898)  Choose OptionFollow Chee (skill: 2898)Talk to Chee (skill: 2898)View Equipment Chee (skill: 2898)Req Assist Chee (skill: 2898)Examine Chee (skill: 2898)Cancel 18:06, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

  • oh! also, for some reason 'weakness' 'weapon' 'antipoison' and there might be a couple of others? appear to not be showing up on duo/trio and mass options - I have absolutely no idea how to fix that lol
    • also also, 70 Prayer for the Piety/Rigour/Augury prayers doesn't seem to show up for duo/trio but that might be because of the above issue
The template does allow for custom sections using the various custom_* parameters, the idea being that things which only apply too 1 or 2 bosses do not need a separate param. See Template:PvM recommendations#Custom lines. Seers headband 2 chathead.png Elessar2 (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2022 (UTC)