Forum:Spoilers

From the RuneScape Wiki, the wiki for all things RuneScape
Jump to: navigation, search
Forums: Yew Grove > Spoilers
Archive
This page or section is an archive.
Please do not edit the contents of this page.
This thread was archived on 28 September 2011 by Thebrains222.

The release of The Ritual of the Mahjarrat has caused a bit of controversy on this wiki, because evidently we do not have clear policies on dealing with spoilers. A key example of this is at RuneScape:Requests for splitting/Ali the Wise, wherein the rationale for splitting the article into Ali the Wise and Wahisietel is that the revelation of Ali the Wise as a Mahjarrat is too spoilerific for most of our readers. Similarly, Template:Mahjarrat has seen many edits recently as users debate where Mahjarrat such as Lucien and Jhallan, who were killed in The Ritual of the Mahjarrat, should be listed on the table. Again, some consider their classification as deceased to be a large spoiler.

Our spoiler policy is sparse. It mentions need for evolution. In this thread, I propose that the spirit of the following be added to the spoiler policy:

Above all else, we are an encyclopedia that provides information about RuneScape. We must always strive to provide the most accurate and relevant information that we can. Consequently, some information in some articles may spoil the plot and/or ending details of certain quests.

It's that simple. We must always strive to provide the most accurate and relevant information that we can. This means writing articles from the point of view of someone who has done everything in the game. This means spoiling quests. This means doing what we have to do to have the best possible information. This consideration is more important than protecting new and uninformed players about quest storylines.

Use of {{spoiler}} to mark large spoilers is fine. Before I did While Guthix Sleeps, I avoided spoilers by not reading articles that had that template at the top. Everyone else will be fine doing this.

We are not a spoiler-free wiki.

Discuss. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 10:11, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Support - I've debated with myself about this and I agree with you. We need to provide up-to-date factual information. Other wikis provide spoilers and we should too. Your idea of avoiding those pages is also good if people don't want them. And if someone truly with all their might doesn't want spoilers, they shouldn't be looking up things that may give them spoilers in the first place. --Touhou FTW 10:17, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Also, I know some other editors have mentioned this, but we might want to put spoilers in a collapsible section that are marked as a spoiler section or as a section from wherever the spoiler originates from. --Touhou FTW 10:23, September 17, 2011 (UTC)
I'm usually okay with separate sections, but not so much with collapsing (hiding) spoilers. Hiding them still supports the idea that we should avoid spoilers, even if the information is important (such as Ali the Wise being a Mahjarrat). --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 10:26, September 17, 2011 (UTC)Void Knight
True, I see your point. In that case, separate sections and if they don't want to read the sections, they can quickly scroll past or just section skip.--Touhou FTW 10:28, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I don't know why people fuss so much about spoilers. As a member of a Future Updates clan I enjoy quests greatly, and I don't have a problem with that --Void Knight 11:22, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

And that might not work on all cases. The page for Ali the Wise is too short for that for example. --Void Knight 11:22, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - per above Hair 12:41, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Weaaak support - Obviously, we must show as much information as possible from a completionist cape's owner's point of view. In cases as extreme as Ali, or Lucien and Jhallan more than just a spoiler warning should be done where possible. The proposed split is an easy and working solution. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 13:19, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I tried a compromise on Template:Mahjarrat, and everybody just ignored it What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 13:31, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - A good example would have been for the top of the forum, I didn't even know Ali the Wise was a Mahjarrat D: Smuff [cite your sources or die] 13:40, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Another heart broken. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:36, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - A Wiki on all things RuneScape. All things RuneScape include spoilers. Therefore we should show have spoilers. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 14:15, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - As per nom. Hofmic Talk 16:04, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - --クールネシトーク 18:34, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - why would we not list info that is interesting to people who like lores, or others who are interested in it? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 18:43, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I wanted to make a thread like this months ago, but, for some reason, I never did. So I guess I'll just support this instead. -Hourglass (2011 Hallowe'en event) detail.png I Am Me Talk III The Spark.png- 22:02, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support. It doesn't make the content much more tedious to read, but it does respect the possible wishes of some of our viewers. Sounds good. ajr 22:05, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - People should expect spoilers here. Mining cape.png The Last Pun Talk Aberrant Spectre Champion.png 22:14, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Per all. Ronan Talk 22:47, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Support - This addition will improve our sparse policy. Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 23:16, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Strong Support - The last time I proposed this, it was shot down and slaughtered... Good to see people have changed their views since. RSN: Warthog Rhys Talk Completionist's cape... Coming soon. 00:18, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Except in quest guide pages, information should be written as if the player had seen all of the events unfolding in -- as well as the lore gathered from -- the latest quest released in the game, as well as the events and lore from all of its quest requirements. For example, if a character dies in the latest quest, the wiki should show that in the character's page. In quest guide pages, information should be written as of when the player started that quest, not later. While doing Quest A, What's-his-face is alive; in Quest B, released later, What's-his-face is dead. What's-his-face's article shows him dead; Quest A's guide acts as if he were alive; Quest B's guide acts as if he were alive, but shows him dying in the middle. This way, unnecessary spoilers are avoided inside quest guides, but clicking through to another page will show everything with an optional Template:Spoiler Alert.

 a proofreader ▸ 

00:47, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

STRONG Oppose - Especially for the case of Jhallan and Lucien, how is it being accurate? If I hadn't done Ritual of the Mahjarrat, then to me, Jhallan and Lucien are ALIVE. I think, for the specific case of the infobox, it makes it far too complicated to list their statuses. The Mahjarrat should just be listed in alphebetical order.

The issue of spoilers is not so clear cut as you make it out to be. We may be an encylopedia, but we are an encyclopedia about a GAME. By all means, we should include spoilers, but we should also do our best to make sure that readers only find out about MAJOR spoilers such as this, if they make the concious CHOICE to do so. 65.30.15.224 02:10, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

"We must always strive to provide the most accurate and relevant information that we can." This is our number one concern, not protecting our readers from spoilers. As an example, Wikipedia does not hide plot spoilers for movies, games, books, etc. Neither should we, not when doing so would interfere with our providing the most accurate and relevant information that we can. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 02:53, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
We are not Wikipedia. I did not say we should not include spoilers AT ALL. Obviously, Lucien's article is fine with just a spoiler warning and quest guides are self explainatory. If you're reading one, you should expect spoilers.
But this issue is NOT clear cut. We SHOULD have something in place to 'protect' readers from them. I bring forth the two examples that have already been used - If we're going to have Wahisietel and Ali the Wise in one article, then at the very LEAST we can put all the Wahisietel information and images into it's own section, rather than revealing it right away in the first sentence. Similarly, we should NOT be saying that Lucien dies right in the Mahjarrat infobox - not just because it's a spoiler, but because it's not nessessarily 'relevant and accurate'. If I haven't done Ritual of the Mahjarrat, then to me, it's NOT accurate to say that he's dead. Armadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png 04:03, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
This proposal is about not sacrificing encyclopedicness in favor of preventing spoilers. Part of that means writing articles from the point of view of someone who's done every quest, as I said in the proposal itself. If you haven't done Ritual of the Mahjarrat, then you've not yet explored the entire game, and therefore as a player your perspective is incomplete. If you started saying that Lucien is alive and called everyone who said otherwise a liar, just because you haven't done Ritual of the Mahjarrat, you wouldn't get far. If we don't write articles in this fashion, how far do we go in determining what is too spoilerific? Should we refuse to classify Count Draynor as a deceased vampyre because some players haven't done Vampire Slayer? Do we say that Zanaris doesn't exist because some players haven't done Lost City? Do we remove all information from Nomad's article except that which classifies him as the lowly overseer of Soul Wars, because some haven't started or completed Nomad's Requiem? Locking up content because it might spoil a quest for someone goes directly against the point of our being an accurate encyclopedia. If you don't like spoilers, use the {{spoiler}} tag, and don't read articles or sections that have the tag. Don't screw up the wiki for the rest of us. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 04:55, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
Nice Strawman. I never said that we should claim that Lucien is alive and call people who say otherwise a liar - to the contrary, Lucien's article SHOULD say that he is dead... .But the infobox should not. I already proposed an alternative for the infobox; All of them should simply be placed into alphebetical order, with no comment on their status of living or dead being made.
You make a good point about how we determine what is spoilerific, however, and that is why we should look at it on a case-by-case basis. A variety of factors go into this; Zanaris, while a spoiler, is revealed during a rather short quest with rather low requirements. Furthermore, Zanaris isn't really talked about until you start this quest, and it's existence is revealed pretty much right away. And what do you mean 'The rest of us'? If this is an encyclopedia, as you seem to claim, then you aren't writing it for yourself or the other writers. You're writing it for the people who want to read it. And encylopedia or not, we are SHOULD try to accomodate readers who wish to avoid spoilers. Again, that does NOT mean we make the wiki spoiler-free - it just means that, with large spoilers, we make sure that information is not shown unless the reader willingly wants to know it. Thus, quest guides don't even NEED spoiler tags - It should be self explainatory that they will contain them. But we should NOT be listing Lucien as "deceased" in an infobox that appears on multiple pages just because he dies in a grandmaster questArmadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png
In Lucien's case specifically, do you want to have a section in Lucien for information that can be gleaned before Temple of Ikov, another for information that can be gleaned during Temple of Ikov if the player sides with Armadyl, another for when the player sides with Lucien, then others for While Guthix Sleeps and finally Ritual of the Mahjarrat where he dies after being attacked by the other Mahjarrat? Currently, Lucien reads like a story, of which there were some elements missing before Ritual of the Mahjarrat but is now more complete. All of the information that is presently there was gathered by players who have learned more about him during said quests. Separating the stories would be quite unwieldy, as I'm sure you can imagine.
The Mahjarrat infobox showing Lucien as deceased is also correct given all the information gathered thus far by all players contributing to the RuneScape Wiki.  a proofreader ▸  06:03, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
Your solution to the problem of determining what is and isn't spoilerific is to approach it on a case-by-case basis? That is way too bureaucratic and will lead to endless debates about what and is not a strong enough spoiler to warrant censorship. Instead, we should be doing our jobs and providing information for our readers. If you're looking stuff up, shouldn't you be expecting spoilers anyway? I'll reiterate something you ignored: If you don't like spoilers, either don't look stuff up or use and respect the {{spoiler}} tag. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 06:25, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

STRONG Support - We are a wiki devoted to documenting all things RuneScape as accurately and relevantly as possible. By this very definition, we are not a spoiler-free wiki, as that would detract from our goal of providing accurate and relevant information, so why are we even having this discussion? As someone said earlier in the discussion (I believe it was Touhou who said this, actually Lol), if people are trying to avoid spoilers, then they shouldn't be looking for information that might give them spoilers in the first place. Therefore, I strongly support the amending of the spoiler policy as per this proposal. [1] N7 Elite (Ready to talk now?) 04:39, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

So, what you're saying is that if someone wants to read about Ali the Wise but suspects that "there may be spoilers which I do not want to know yet", he should not read at all. Do this for every article and our viewer count is 0. Also, a comment on the thread itself. The spoiler template isn't really helpful. It just says: "Watch out, spoilers!". For what? The Void Stares Back? Cook's Assistant? Harry Potter? Also, I STRONGLY agree with Nightgunner's comments above. And, to repeat, we wouldn't be hiding information. It's still there, only those who do not want to know it can skip it instead of having to scroll past and inevitably read a sentence or two and see the images. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 06:51, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
Add a parameter? Suppa chuppa Talk 06:48, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
Not sure how... User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 06:59, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
You mean something like this? -Hourglass (2011 Hallowe'en event) detail.png I Am Me Talk III The Spark.png- 19:15, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Neutral - As we are a wiki of RuneScape, spoilers are to be expected. Anything else thought of is similar to sticking your head in the ground, it won't do you any good. However some things I do not agree with are the combination of the Mahjarrat and their disguises. The only time I see that we should keep with the status quo is with characters like Lucien where the name stays the same.

I don't see the need to prevent spoilers, but writing articles for those characters like the Mahjarrat as "dead" or "alive" should have been entirely rewritten. I do not have heavy weighing reasons to say that we should change the format, but I do wish to keep sections like this to a minimum where the questionable tides of how far someone has gotten into the story line wonder why we say someone is dead (or a group like many of the Mahjarrat) when it is not for them.

However, I do wish that we keep the usage of that spoiler template to a minimum. Not nice to see on xyz pages. Not a strong argument, but then again I'm neither supporting or opposing the change. Ryan PM 06:17, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Closed - Andorin's proposed sentences will be added to the spoiler policy. 222 talk 04:47, September 28, 2011 (UTC)