Forum:Skill guides

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This thread was archived on 27 February 2011 by Chicken7.

I have been changing all the pages like Woodcutting training from a disambig between 2 page, the free to play and the pay to play guides, to redirects to Pay-to-play guide, which has a link to the free-to-play guide right at the top of the page. Just looking at the difference in page-views in a random guide (mining) the members guide has 2-3 times more visits than the f2p one. Having them like this means around 1/3 of people will have to click the link to the f2p guide rather than having everyone have to click a link.

Disambigs are useful when there 3 or more links, but having 2 isn't worth it because it becomes annoying to more people than it is useful. I got the idea from someone in the cc who said it is one of the most annoying things on the wiki, which it is. I don't see how this can give any disadvantage to the wiki and our visitors, but will help most of them and be indifferent to the others. Some people have an argument that it is biased, but I don't see how this is a problem as we are not saying p2p is better than f2p and they are still NPOV.

Ps. I know this is a kind of trivial reason to make a yg but it seemed to need consensus because we couldn't agree on this issue in the irc.

Discussion[edit source]

Support - To keep. As nom. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 08:52, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Here is my rationale for disagreeing for those of you who weren't involved in the discussion: You have to choose between p2p or f2p skill guides to link to, and that can't be done fairly. There are reasons for both sides: We could link to p2p guides because they get heavier traffic, or we could link to f2p guides because they will contain training methods which everyone can try, whereas p2p guides are obviously members-only. I prefer the old system wherein every "<skill> training" page was a disambiguation linking to both, in order to avoid this mess. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 08:58, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - People often won't realize they're on a members' article. Per Andorin. ʞooɔ 10:51, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Comment - Whether or not it's fair is irrelevant, in my opinion, because obviously we have the opportunity to save some people time; it's a physical benefit against an emotional detriment. Instead of both groups clicking twice, either one group or the other should click once. Since members will certainly realize if the content is free-to-play, we should send them to the free-to-play article with a link to the members article. This saves 33% of our readers from clicking twice, and it doesn't have the detriment of possible confusion mentioned by Cook, though the pay-to-play mining guide, as an example, clearly states its status as a pay-to-play guide in the title and four times in the article, so I wonder if possible confusion is also irrelevant. Leftiness 16:21, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

2 clicks? My hand will fall off! - This is a time to ignore the rule stating we shouldn't have 2-page disambigs. Loading the small disambig takes about 2 seconds, which would not make a difference to the loading time for the training guide, which would take much longer. If it's so urgent that you can't spare 2 seconds, you need to calm down and take a break. Real Mad 17:31, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Real, there is no rule about 2-page disambigs, but I am saying they are useless and are just annoying. I do not see any real advantage of having a disambig for 2 pages as having see also or otheruses at the top of the page does the same thing except making it easier for 50% of people or in this case 66%. Also the training guides aren't that big, it takes more to load the theme than it does either the guide or the disambig. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 06:41, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
It seems to be an unsaid rule, we have the Otheruse templates for changing between 2 pages with similar names. As for your saying they're annoying, anyone thinking that way can either favourite the guides in their browser, or use a search for the specific guide. Not that hard. Real Mad 08:00, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
So what is the advantage of keeping the disambig, other than for a small amount of people a few more seconds to load? Also people don't use guides that much that they would put it in there favourites. If people were to search for the specific guide, then they already would in which case this change wouldn't make any difference to them. It's not just me who thinks there annoying, a lot of people do. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 08:42, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
I also refer to Andorin's argument. Either F2P players won't notice they're on a P2P guide, and will try to do members' training methods, or P2P players won't notice they're on an F2P guide, and won't use any members' methods, which could possibly be faster than the F2P methods. Much easier, and fairer, to have a disambig page. Real Mad 09:28, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
(@ your first comment)Real, this reference to RS:UCS looks an awful lot like what should be treated at Forum:"I'm right because of UCS". UCS has to do nothing with this. It looks like you used that nonexistent "rule" to use UCS. Please don't do this JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 09:30, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I'm sure I remember reading it somewhere, perhaps I'm getting confused with something else Blush Real Mad 10:02, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
I forgievz yu, shon. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 13:54, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that the disambigs should be removed. My rationale is that with the current system, each person has to load a small page before reaching their destination. In the proposed system, half the people will have to load a large page then load their destination page. That's essentially twice the loading time, is it not? While its not an issue for most people, some people with dial-up or other slow connections, it could turn out to be a big issue. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 07:15, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

But people with dial-up particularly probably wouldn't be able to play rs because that itself uses quite a lot, yes people with slow connections might find it at a bit of a disadvantage for them, but that isn't a large amount of people especially since the pages aren't really that big, yes there not small but still for most people it will not make any difference, like I don't have a really good fast computer, but both pages load in about the same amount of time. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 07:29, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Andorin. 222 talk 08:50, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per everyone else. You say it's not biased, but it is, whether it be because of the amount of traffic P2P pages receive or that they have more information. Need I remind you that, technically, F2P is not a demo, but rather just another version of the game. There's nothing wrong with a disambiguation, it effectively lays out both pages for someone to choose between. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 14:43, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per all. It just seems more appropriate to have an disambiguation page than to automatically redirect people to a page that doesn't necessarily apply to them, regardless of how small that group is.  Tien  15:13, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Per above. People may just scan down to the training methods appropriate to their level without checking the top of the page What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 15:22, February 20, 2011 (UTC)


Closed - Neutral training pages will stay as disambiguations, due to near unanimous support. Reasons include preventing confusion (i got confused), lowering page-load times (for users who don't want a whole guide opened when they want the other one) and the hard, somewhat biased, decision of deciding which guide to redirect to. Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 06:23, February 27, 2011 (UTC)