Forum:Section ordering policy
Hello, as far as I am aware, there is no mention in the style guide, or policy about the ordering of sections (and also, templates) on pages. Thus, I would like this thread to serve as an official confirmation of ordering of sections, and to be made into a policy, or subpage of the style guide. I personally have found it confusing in the past to know where sections should go, as they tend to be rather inconsistent through pages.
A. Gallery placement
Firstly, I'd like to gain some consensus over gallery placement specifically:
- Gallery should be placed above Update History and Trivia (for example, on Zamorak)
- Gallery should be placed below Update History and Trivia (for example, on 2010 Hallowe'en event)
- Gallery should be elsewhere
An example where gallery can be found in both places (lol) is on the Zanaris page.
B. Top template ordering
- Bar templates should be above line (hat) templates
- Line (hat) templates should be above bar templates
C. Section ordering
My main proposal is for policy to dictate that sections to go in the following order (when the page requires such sections, excluding gallery for now as per above):
- History (includes quest lore if required?)
- Events (e.g. holiday events)
- Music unlocked
- Update History
- See also
- External links
These sections I've listed are primarily related to NPCs, as for guides and whatnot it's generally accepted that it goes -> Guide -> Rewards -> #4 onwards (monsters would be Drops -> #3 onwards, items would have Creation -> Drop sources -> Store locations -> Disassembly -> #3 onwards, quests would have Required for Completing -> #6 onwards). Happy to have discussion to include other page types, depending how detailed we want the page for this to be (if we want to go more in-depth, and come up with section ordering per page type? e.g. events/quests/locations/monsters/npcs/items). I should note that this obviously would only account for commonly used sections.
Other obvious points to make on the page would be that all navboxes to go at the bottom of the page, infobox (generally, besides certain templates) goes at the top. Stubs also go at the bottom. Maybe it would be good to list the commonly used templates that belong at the top?
Additionally, 'bar' templates (e.g. Template:Holiday NPC, or Template:HasMMG) would belong above 'line' templates (e.g. Template:Otheruses) Tacked onto proposal above.
Ultimately, I think a page detailing these specifics would be helpful to both new and existing editors when it comes to making and editing pages - telling you the structure of the page, a brief overview of what should go in it, without you having to look at preexisting pages for examples.
Any comments mentioning possible other common sections that I've missed here are highly encouraged, so I can tack them on to this proposal while it's active. Additionally, if my blind ass has someone managed to miss any possible policy or style guide section that covers what I've proposed today please let me know so I can minimise the amount of time spent looking like an idiot
Prefer gallery 2 (A2), Support ordering (C), Support subpage of style guide - As nominator. I prefer the gallery as below trivia and update history as to me it serves as more of a cutoff signifying the end of the page - as gallery content is centered, lots of whitespace can be just left around the middle of the page if there isn't much content in the gallery.01:21, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- Support bar above hat (B1) - Per proposal addition 01:55, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support gallery 1 - The Gallery often serves a bigger purpose than those of the Update History and Trivia. The Update History section is just like a "special version of trivia" that focuses on the patched changes. They're despisable as opposed a lot of the images on galleries that show actually how the things in the page look in-game.01:31, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- Forum:Listing_update_histories_on_articles_v2#Section_location btw - 02:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support gallery 2, semi-support ordering - UH and trivia tends to be short, so the gallery isn't pushed down much, whereas the gallery can be phat on some pages, pushing UH and trivia down a lot. As for the ordering, I don't really see why music unlocked needs to be so high.01:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support gallery 2, some changes to order - I think move music unlocked below dialogue, and sort of like the idea of swapping UH and Trivia so trivia comes first. But not as strongly as moving music. Christine 01:44, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Comment - As per
Additionally, 'bar' templates (e.g. Template:Holiday NPC, or Template:HasMMG) would belong above 'line' templates (e.g. Template:Otheruses).; I think the "line" (hat) templates should be at the top, above the "bar" ones, as they are already on every quest page, minigame, hub area, potion, boss, etc. It keeps the redirect/otheruses/official world more visible and easier to get to, and also separates it from the main article. The hat note shouldn't be part of the main article (as it's related, same name for example, but not something that is a part of that article); putting it under the bar makes it seem as through it's part of that article rather than separate. Californ1a (talk) 01:49, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support gallery 1, Support top template 2 - As Merds has stated, the gallery is generally more useful and/or of more interest than UH, and generally, trivia. In opposition to what Kelse said, UH can be very long, and there's still plenty to be added. As for top templates, I agree that having the "line" templates above the "bar" templates, makes them more visible, which is good. See Imp Catcher vs Chicken, in the later the "line" template tends to blend into the text. I'd also specify that, if applicable, the first bar template should be Template:Deleted content or one for future content. 10:00, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support (modified) Section ordering - I think it'd be good, very useful for new editors, and it would make the wiki more consistent (it drives me nuts sometimes). I think we should do a basic order applicable to all and then orders for the major page types: npc, items, quest, shops, locations. The individual orders should be consistent with the basic order, which should only have things that apply to most pages, eg:
Infobox, Line templates, Bar templates, Intro paragraph, Variable sections, Gallery, Trivia, UH. I also think these should be (strong) suggestions but not fixed rules, there will be some pages where a different order makes sense. As to the actual order, one of the big things I think is that Trivia should be before Update History, the former is much more relevant for most users of the wiki. If we do these orders they should also be on RuneScape:Style guide (and relevant sub pages) as well as linked from the basic/advanced editing pages. Would also be cool to have a gadget that will show the suggested order in a popup when editing a page. 10:00, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- If there is/will be a gadget for suggested section ordering, it should probably base the order on which infobox is the first one used on the page, since the main infobox tends to determine what type of page it is, and thus, which sections it would have. However, item pages might need to be a little more complex since there's only one item infobox, and the sections vary wildly for things like potions vs weapons, but for quests, minigames, monsters, npcs, etc. the section orders would most likely be consistent with the type of infobox used. Californ1a (talk) 10:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Comment - There has been a discussion about this before: Forum:InconsistencyScape: Stacking Infoboxes. 14:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. There is a policy already: RuneScape:Style guide/Item#Order of sections. 14:41, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support A1 and B2 and C - The order of C looks good, and I prefer A1 and B2 as that's how I've been doing it as well.14:48, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Comment - Regarding the top templates: there is also already a style guide for that: RuneScape:Style guide/Wiki code#Orders. Also once this thread is closed we could rename RuneScape:Style guide/Item to 'RuneScape:Style guide/Layout' or something like that to add on to that style guide and rewrite it where necessary to make it not only about items, but pages in general. 15:02, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- Btw, it may be worth going a little more detailed and setting specifically what templates go above or below each-other for the header templates. Redirect above Otheruses (def=no otheruses below regular otheruses)? HasStrategy above HasMMG? Etc. Californ1a (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ah, missed that item subpage! Thanks for linking it - I also support renaming it to layout and expanding it to cover other types of pages. Also agree with you last comment about template ordering - how should we go about deciding this? Unsure if it's worth taking on as a sub discussion in this thread or to just create a new one. I would agree with all the examples you just gave 17:28, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- Because of complexity, I'd leave this thread to vote on A, B and C, where C is whether or not to make a policy. And then another thread where we propose a policy covering the ordering for all pages, and any template orderings we also want to specify.
21:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me 21:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - Not every smallest detail should be standardised. There's no universal best order of sections. In this particular case what works for some articles might not work for others. I appreciate you're thinking about new users there looking for a guideline on how to create new articles but they can indeed look at existing ones for inspiration, or consult other wiki users. Not worth amending the guidelines in this case. 5-x Talk 19:12, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
- I fail to see how making section ordering consistent across pages that share sections is a bad thing, and I don't think commonly shared sections would count as 'every smallest detail' (they're a rather large detail in pages, arguably). In regards to users looking at existing pages for inspiration, as I mentioned in the proposal, it can be confusing when different pages have sections in different places. Not to mention how much easier it is to just go to a guide, rather than having to find a page (or multiple) that has the same sections as the page being made. Additionally, as already mentioned by other users here, this proposal in essence already exists in smaller, separate forms - such as the items style guide, and Update History guide. 19:48, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
A2 and B1 - I feel like the gallery should be at the bottom, since not every page is going to have it, unlike update history. Trivia should come before update history, as it fits better there visually, even if not every page has trivia. As for an overall ordering, I feel like this should be a per category basis (bestiary might make use of a slightly different order than a quest NPC, for example). Badassiel 22:16, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Closed - So, after the umpteenth re-read to make sure I included everyone's positions when they were buried in their comment rather than at in bold letters at the beginning and to make sure I only counted each user once, it seems that 5 people prefer to place the gallery above the update history and trivia, while 4 people prefer to place the gallery below. Neither side brought up particularly convincing arguments. As the status quo for item pages (per here) that seems to also be used on non-item pages was to place the gallery above, it will remain that way.
For the bar vs line template order, it seems that 2 people prefer bar first while 3 people prefer line first. As with the gallery order, I couldn't really find any overwhelming argument on either side, and the status quo (per here has been to have the line first, it will also remain that way.
Finally, there is general consensus to implement the proposed section ordering. Two users explicitly stated that they prefer this to be a subpage of the style guide. The proposal actually states to make it policy and several people supported C without explicitly commenting on the policy vs style guide subpage angle. Because of this, there is definitely no clear consensus to change the section ordering to a policy and it will remain a style guide. The proposed layout will be copied to RuneScape:Style guide/Layout as is, as only a few people brought up issues concerning the music unlocked section. The layout as decided in the prior thread and found on RuneScape:Style guide/Item#Order of sections will be made a section of this new Layout page. Item pages should follow both orders. I don't anticipate this being a major issue as the sections listed here usually aren't found on item pages (such as family, music unlocked, dialogue). In cases where a page needs to refer to both lists, for the time being how the lists should be merged can be handled on a case-by-case basis. (For example, this discussion does not provide guidance on whether an item page with a History section should be placed above or below Infobox Bonuses, disassembly, store locations, etc.) If persistent conflicts arise, then hammering out an explicit ordering can be done in a new thread. Further discussion of section ordering specific to other types of pages were not discussed here and will require their own threads. Once discussed, they can have additional sections added to the Layout page. --LiquidTalk 03:48, 2 February 2020 (UTC)