Forum:SMW

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This thread was archived on 8 March 2016 by Liquidhelium.

We now have Semantic MediaWiki installedverify. Per some thread I can't remember the name of, I was thinking of using it to build an all new bestiary, but theoretically it can be used to build better calcs, items drops on monster pages and maybe integrate it into our exchange setup. For anyone who's interested in using it, there's a somewhat confusing manual at [1] complete with an introduction.

The Mol Man has kindly volunteered to add it to Infobox Monster so we can start having a look at how it might work (sometime after bxpw has finished) so hopefully we can roll it out along with the new monster infoboxes with no impact to users.

If anyone's got any ideas on what we could use it for, state them below and I'll see what we can do :) cqm 19:42, 27 Feb 2016 (UTC) (UTC)

Discussion

Oppose - I thought this was about Super Mario World and got excited. Kinda disappointed now. MolMan 19:43, February 27, 2016 (UTC)

Welp, we can all go home now, there's never been a better reason for opposition, pack y'all bags --dDbvitC.pngScuzzy Betahib8CAd.png 17:08, March 4, 2016 (UTC)

Comments - Wikia won't like this very much due to apparently high server requests. Also

"SMW adds semantic annotations that allow a wiki to function as a collaborative database."

How the hell are we supposed to enforce this? We can't even enforce people to upload images without names like "q6cymg.JPG" from imgur, so what the hell? --Jlun2 (talk) 19:52, February 27, 2016 (UTC)

The easiest way is to do as much as we can via templates, especially infoboxes. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 19:55, February 27, 2016 (UTC)
Wikia enabled it, if they had concerns it's a bit late now. cqm 20:00, 27 Feb 2016 (UTC) (UTC)

Comment - I'm not sure how it makes a better bestiary than categories could, e.g., [[has drop::coins]] vs [[coins]][[Category:Drops coins]]. The advantage of Semantic MW is that it allows you to define the nature of the relationship between pages instead of just WhatLinksHere. "The sky is [[has color::blue]]." vs. "The sky is up. See also: [[Blue]]." I'm sure it can have a use, but I'd argue we should think harder about how to use it, instead of just treating it like a solution in search of a problem. --Saftzie (talk) 02:47, February 28, 2016 (UTC)

[[Has drop:Coins]] is exactly the kind of thing it's useful for. Now, we can make a single property to "categorize" (for lack of a better word) what monsters drop what items, as opposed to having hundreds of different categories. Another huge advantage is how we can immediately pull data with {{Get}}. Compare getting a combat level:
  • Dust devils are level {{#dpl:namespace=|titlematch=Dust devil|format=,|include={Infobox Monster new}:level|tablerow=%%}}.
  • Dust devils are level 85.
  • Dust devils are level {{get|Dust devil|Combat level}}.
  • Dust devils are level 85.
  • Aviansie come in several levels: {{#dpl:namespace=|titlematch=Aviansie|format=,|include={Infobox Monster new}:level|tablerow=%%}}.
  • Aviansie come in several levels: .
    • Nice!
  • Aviansie come in several levels:  {{get|Aviansie|All Combat level}}.
  • Aviansie come in several levels: 89, 92, 95.
Even with Category:Monsters by combat level, getting an individual combat level for display is a hacky mess, and that's just for monsters with only 1 variety.
Don't even get me started on prose or sharing a property between multiple templates. Can you think of a way to list all items, monsters, and NPCS and show their release date, examine, and members status? MolMan 13:18, February 28, 2016 (UTC)
Another thing it's particularly useful for is drop tables. Where before we could use DPL to get all items a monster page links to, there's no guarantee that's actually a drop. With SMW, we have finer, more explicit control where it's needed. One thing I have learned from a few quick discussions is that SMW is cached, but not in the same way pages are. I suspect it won't be hugely useful for maintaining GE prices given how dynamic they are, but they could be good for managing the more static properties and reducing duplication there (examines for instance). cqm 21:11, 28 Feb 2016 (UTC) (UTC)
Pages already have a property named "Category," which can take multiple values. (Hypothetically, SELECT PAGENAME WHERE CATEGORY = "DropsCoins") Plain MediaWiki also allows organizing the values hierarchically and viewing the hierarchies in the Category namespace. What Semantic MediaWiki adds is the ability to have properties named something other than "Category." (Hypothetically, SELECT PAGENAME WHERE DROP = "Coins") DPL is simultaneously wonderful and broken for providing functions to query the database for those property values. So is the argument that Semantic MW replaces DPL, because DPL hasn't been well-maintained? The categories here are also a mess and haven't been maintained well. So part of the argument against categories isn't that they can't provide the utility we want, but that they're such a mess that they need a clean-up to be useful. The argument in favor of Semantic MW is still positive, but weaker, I think. How long will it be before Semantic MW properties are a similar mess? --Saftzie (talk) 04:55, February 29, 2016 (UTC)
Property:Drops item is a single page that covers every possible drop. It opens up a new world that doesn't require us to have thousands of pages, one for each drop. Nothing is replacing anything. SMW is doing what DPL and categories are unable to do. DPL is still superior to SMW in organizational freedom and informational power (e.g. the Money making guides), but SMW is the better option for junk chance on Template:Disassemble. MolMan 12:29, February 29, 2016 (UTC)

Commment - Hey just curious, the last time this was suggested it kinda died off due to lack of interest/maintainers. How will that be avoided? --Jlun2 (talk) 02:05, March 3, 2016 (UTC)

It died off last time because the extension was never installed, so there was nothing to do. Also, that was before Mol joined --Iiii I I I 03:45, March 3, 2016 (UTC)

Guidelines

I have some idea of how we should expect our guideline to look. A very rough outline is at RuneScape:Style guide/Semantic Media Wiki. MolMan 17:46, February 28, 2016 (UTC)

Closed - Semantic MediaWiki will be implemented by The Mol Man. --LiquidTalk 21:11, March 8, 2016 (UTC)

Do it yourself. MolMan 21:13, March 8, 2016 (UTC)