Forum:Reveal leaked info?

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This thread was archived on 30 June 2009 by Tienjt0.

Reveal leaked info?

Keeping this short, right here, on the Dragon Pickaxe article, someone says they've found stuff for said pickaxe, the soul-rune related altar and items, and a music skillcape. How do we know what is true and what is false? And what's the policy for such "leaks"? I'm quite skeptical about such items, especially the music skillcape.

(PLEASE read that link, that has the actual "method" of finding such unreleased items!) 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 04:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - This is not illegal, very useful, and quite interesting. I am actually glad that someone is finally released the information. To everyone who will post and say this is wrong, we should be loyal to Jagex, or whatever else, I ask you to please consider that this is a step in the right direction. Maybe sometime soon someone will figure our how to actually mod the game or do some pretty neat things. As for handling supposed leaks, we should definitely include articles about these things because they were actually found within files stored in your computer by Jagex which leaves little room for fakes/tampering. Game companies often include unreleased or beta content for use in later updates.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 04:29, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Support, but we need some solid proof that we can actually do this. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  04:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per RS:NIP. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk

Strong Oppose - We are an encyclopedia about facts, a source of liable information. We don't need hypothetical things or myths/legends/rumors. There is little to know solid proof of any of it, and even if there is, what good would it offer. If Jagex is planning to release it they will when they want to and will let us know when they want too. What's the rush for this info. As per RS:NIP, I too oppose.

Bonziiznob Talk

05:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Bonzii and Evil yanks. This better not turn into another respecting classified information. >.< Andrew talk 05:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


Hey guys, um yeah that was me. But look at Soul tiara and Soul talisman... you say I might be lying. SO MIGHT THEY. The person who uploaded the pictures of the tiara and tali could've easily edited a fire talisman or a water tiara or whatever. Same goes for me. I say I'm not lying ,you have the right not to believe me, but if you oppose my evidence.. why don't you oppose Soul tiara's and Soul talisman's? And for your convenience, here's my evidence: http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f229/dirizz/RS%20Model%20Viewer%20finds/ --Lil diriz 77 05:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

You guys seem to be misunderstanding how the files in question were aquired. The files were unpacked from archives stored in your machine by the Java applet Runescape uses to play the game. All models and textures are cached in these archives for quick loading. Many games do this, and the companies behind them openly support the community tearing them apart for use in modeling, modding, and for whatever else anyone can think of. Im not saying Jagex wants the files opened, but if they truly did not want this to happen with 10+ million people playing the game, they would have used some server side encryption as they did with the autorune incident. I am downloading the program now to take a look through the current archives as they exist on my machine that I use to play the game. And this is not classified information, Classified information as you guessed it is information that is hidden from the public. These files exist in a state that are quite easy to open and view, and are designed for quick and efficient loading. Besides, nowhere in the user agreement does it say we are not allowed to view models and textures, not to mention these files cannot be used to modify the server side game or manipulate it in any way. As you can see from my screenshot here [1], these models are actually used in the game and are not fakes or rumors. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I was talking about the nature of the discussion. Respecting classified information went on forever without reaching a consensus and I don't want that to happen here. Andrew talk 06:25, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Ah HA! Ty Tebuddy ^_^ As these are stored on my computer, in the Jagex folder, IT HAS TO BE CONFIRMED BY JAGEX. Right? Sure, they don't out-right say "Hey everyone, look in your My Documents>jagex_cache_file23324asdfisftw5j32, our files are stored in there :D, then download (insert the program i used here) so you can actually see them! Cool right?!" or whatever. They didn't out-right tell us to do that. No, it's our choice to search for it. It has to be confirmed because it is property of Jagex, and is Jagex's files. And if you look at my evidence in the last post above ^^^ then you'll see that the pictures are very RuneScape-like. Compare the detail image of a Fire tiara to the Soul Tiara in my evidence. Siiiimmmmiiilllaaarrr?? Compare the Soul Altar to any other altar. Thx ;] And Soldier.. I'm not sure what you mean =\ Do you not want us to discuss this? 'Cause I don't find that fair -.- --Lil diriz 77 06:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I hate to be rude here, but I am going to need you to tighten up your grammar and stop using smilies if I am going to understand anything your trying to say. As it stands, I don't exactly understand the point you made above. I think maybe you misinterpreted my argument, I support the documenting of these files on this wiki, and encourage the community to tweak and mess with them. Also, Runescape is a very lightweight and portable program, and anything put in the data files stored on your computer cant be unnecessarily large or cumbersome because they need to be loaded quickly. So Jagex logically would only put things in their that they are testing, releasing, or tweaking. How can we have not verify the fact that these are Jagex files from the Jagex server stored in the Jagex directory on your hard drive and used by the Runescape client? Second of all, read the user agreement [2], no violation of the game rules or the agreement itself. Secondly, the model viewer was developed based on tools made available by SUN (the creators of Java). Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry. So used to using them. What I was trying to say was, if I'm correct, any files stored on my computer by Jagex are basically "released" in a secretive way. The first time I play RuneScape it doesn't directly show them on my desktop screaming "CLICK HERE TO SEE JAGEX'S MODELS", but it does have the files on my computer, and they can be viewed through this program. So, in my eyes, it's not confidential. It's released to the public in a VERY secretive way (how many people would think to download this RS Model Viewer?). And it's technically not illegal (by Jagex rules) as they ARE released to us, as Tebuddy said. I don't see why a page can't/shouldn't be made for these as they can be useful for someone who would like to see what a Soul Tiara or Soul Altar might look like in the future. I think it's better than not having anything. The program has over 56000 models, so I highly doubt someone made the models themselves, that would be hell. The models are obviously made by Jagex if you look at them. BTW Tebuddy, are you finished downloading it? --Lil diriz 77 07:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I wouldn't say secretive, the files are designed to be snappy loading and unintimidating to the average user, hence the complete lack of any installation checks whatsoever. Everything is on autopilot the second you load the applet. The reason I am encouraging this is because as a community, it would be nice to let everyone know how the game works on a more technical side. If anything it would encourage more curious or tech saavy users to mess around with the files and create some very interesting things. I dont doubt Jagex may just get involved and start releasing more and more information for the technical and more advanced side of Runescape. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
That's what I'm saying. I think it would be better if people started sharing what they think, their own very possible evidence, and whatever makes people happy. Soul tiara does just that. We think it's possible, IT IS VERY POSSIBLE, and anyone who's curious about what it looks/may look like, would now know. You see, I could've easily edited that. I could've takes a fire tiara image, taken out the fire, and added that little purple square. Editing is easy, but I think we all trust each other enough not to upload fake images -.- And as I said before, this program (RSMV, short for RuneScape Model Viewer), is very real. It has all of the current RuneScape content archived inside, and I think we should give it a chance! I've seen so many current things such as Evil Trees, the Inferno Adze, Ring of Fire, and MANY others. It's obviously very up to date, though I'm not sure if it auto-updates if a new quest comes out or something. I just think we need to give it a chance. It'll give people a total new view on 3D models, such as the "detail" images we upload from the G.E. Database. With this, we can actually ROTATE the item for the best angle, and as for things that aren't tradable, we can see their "detail" image also. It just takes a bit of looking through the archive, as the some-57000 models aren't in categories like "Evil Trees", "The Hunt for Red Raktuber". They're numbered by models, mostly categorized from newest to oldest. It needs a chance, I think it's better that we have cool, unreleased, informing, content than no content at all. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 08:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - The third-party software "RSMV.rar" was released in a site promoting RuneScape client hacking/modding. A quick google search on "RSMV.rar" provides the link to the person involved in writing/decrypting the 3D models, and its source code.

Question - Why don't we ask Jagex themselves if they allow their models to be released in public domain?   az talk   09:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with the conclusion that the author was releasing the software under the "We are cheaters and this is for cheating" banner. I think he was using the forum from the search result to let people who are interested in the software that it was available and that the software falls into the GNU General Public License (GPL). Regardless of that, it was created using tools released for free by SUN and cannot be used for cheating. Besides, how exactly does this legally involve Jagex? The files are stored on your computer and we don't intend to use/reuse any of them for our own deviant purposes. As far as this wiki is concerned, we should only be talking about whether we want to make a page about what we can find within the archives. And also, fair use [3]. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 09:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - It is stated in the "Terms and conditions:

You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it. You must not create or provide any other means by which any Jagex Product may be played by others (including, without limitation, replacement or modified client/server software, server emulators).

Players cannot just use the files in their computer to view the models. The models are "packed" in the cache files. How would you get the models without reverse engineering? If the models are in plain sight, then it would be fine. With the "URL manipulation" technique the images were easily accessible. So both techniques cannot be compared. If it involves reverse engineering the codes, the cache files, or any other packed file, then unfortunately, it may be against the T&C.

Besides, if we decided to allow these model images to be uploaded, how would we name the images? They are only numbered sequentially. By speculating what they are called, we would be violating RuneScape is not a crystal ball.

Just my two cents.   az talk   09:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Az, you make a nice point, we wouldn't be able to name them, no matter how obvious it is... However, in reference to Tebuddy's post, we are not using these models to manipulate the game, or for our own gain. We're not modifying, customizing, or editing any of Jagex's own property, and we have absolutely no use for it in the actual RuneScape client. It's basically only for entertainment. I don't see how it's reverse-engineering though - maybe just because I don't know what that means. You mentioned that it would be fine if they were "in plain sight". Well isn't this sorta just like a ZIP file? Here's the zip file, extract, boom, done. Isn't it just like taking contents out of a drawer? Or books out of a bookbag? And even so, how would we ask Jagex? Not on the forums surely. And besides the forums... is there another way? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 10:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and btw, sure, we won't know what to name them. Yet we knew what the Soul tiara and Soul talisman's names were. Yep. If we see a picture of what looks to be the soul altar, yet we don't know it's name, then it shouldn't be named. Therefore, the Soul tiara and Soul talisman articles are incorrectly named. What should we name them? Idk, surely not "Shiny silver crown-lookin' thing with a purple symbol in the middle". --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 10:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, those two was listed in the RuneScape website (Knowledge Base), with item names and examine text. So we know that they are legitimate items.   az talk   10:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure it is not like a Zip file. They are somehow packed differently; using some encryption, obfuscation, and some other JAVA mumbo-jumbo that I'm not really familiar with. There is a reason why Jagex does this.. otherwise they would be releasing the images themselves. We are an encyclopaedia, we document the past, the present, and sometimes the future updates that have been mentioned by Jagex themselves. We don't encourage speculation on future updates, releases, item, quests, etc. and it is as simply as that. Unless there is direct proof (by Jagex) that those images are indeed what they seem to be, we cannot allow them.
If it is just for "entertainment" only, why don't you ask them on the RuneScape Forums? At least, tell them to confirm the images are in fact actual images, and they have released them "accidentally". I'm quite certain it is a blunder from Jagex to be releasing unreleased items into the game client.   az talk   10:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Well yeah, I didn't mean it exactly like a Zip, just had to compare it to something having to do with computers lol. And yes, I understand, no matter how obvious it is that the models are Jagex's, it needs to be confirmed. And should I ask them? Do you think it'll get me banned? O_o oh god no. Is this really that against the rules? Is it even against the rules?! Ugh, I've already uploaded a few images from the archive -.- Such as the "detail" images on Explorer's ring, Statius's warhammer, Ring of fire, Flame gloves, and the Jogre monster template image, but that's all. Should we take 'em down? Or leave 'em till I post on the forums? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 10:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, those two (Soul rune and talisman) was listed in the RuneScape website (Knowledge Base), with item names and examine text. So we know that they are legitimate items. If the images are from the RuneScape website, someone else can at least verify the images. We do not want Jagex to say: "Where did you get that image? We haven't even released it yet." You surely wouldn't want to say: "Oh, I got it by manipulating your cache files."

It is up to you to talk to Jagex. But if you fairly confident of getting Jagex's blessings, then you are welcome to upload the images later. If you have already uploaded the images, please remove them, as this discussion is still on-going.   az talk   10:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


Hm.. didn't know they were in the Knowledge Base. Keep 'em then. Should I tell Jagex about the Youtube video first? I don't want Jagex to be angry with me, or penalize me for this or something. I just found something I thought was simliar to the tiara/talisman scenario, and thought it might be cool to show people future items that we're all wondering about. I'll surely delete RSMV and encourage the Youtuber with the video to also. Anything to satisfy Jagex and keep my account (no sarcasm intended). I'll go take the images I posted now, but to delete the images don't I need to put up a speedy deletion tag or something?

AZ, Your bending the terms and conditions entry to your own interpretation. The first line about Jagex client software refers to the applet found here [4], and when they mean reverse engineer they mean intercepting data sent between the client and server and decrypting and then modifying it to create bots or create/find exploits. It also covers reverse engineering data flow between client and server in order to create private servers for your own personal use. The files (which were created using a programming language like Java created by SUN) are compressed (file compression, also not created or owned by Jagex) into another file and then transferred from the server to your computer (through a Java applet). On top of that, we don't intend to re-licence it or use it for cheating (even though its not possible to use models to cheat in any way in Runescape).

Why would we not update the policy to reflect a new information source such as this? Crystal ball assumes you do not have a verifiable source for the information to be speculated on, this is not the case. We wouldn't have to be incredibly vague or clueless when it comes to names either. In the case of the supposed dragon pickaxe (which a model does exist for) we can pretty easily tell that Jagex is either working on or tweaking a tool of some sort that happens to look like a pickaxe and have a red head, so a good name would be "unknown-runescape-model-dragon-pickaxe.png".

The data files are compiled with runescript (which is based on/is Java) and compressed in a similar manner with the Java programming language. However, the only reason these files are capable of being read is because Sun Microsystems, the creators of the Java programming language have released tools (AKA the SDK) for creating and modifying Java applets. I don't know if you play any other games except Runescape, but it is very common for game companies to keep things that didn't make the final cut or are still being worked on in data files being distributed to the client for one reason or another. Also, the reason these files are compressed and hidden in your system directory is because they are designed as I said above to load quickly and not intimidate average users who are not used to dealing with file systems. Honestly, you seem to be just adding requirement after requirement when it comes to verifiability. Jagex created these files and distributed them via the game client to your computer. How much more obvious can it get that they are either in beta/testing, or are going to be released eventually? Now the entire deal about sailing a while back and how someone thought they saw a sailing cape or a ship or whatever in the new logo, that was ridiculous speculation. The difference is, this is speculation based on hard evidence, like a picture of a red pickaxe shaped tool that is very clearly shaped and colored like every other pickaxe in the game that was just so conveniently found in the files your computer downloads and updates every time you play Runescape.

Also, don't feel shy about asking Jagex for information. Jagex isn't where it is today because they have a bunch of dimwits working the servers. They are fully aware that with over 10 million people playing the game that some random person would decompress the files and start poking around. Besides, this isn't exactly groundbreaking,Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy11:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

That helped alot Tebuddy =] Thanks. I'm not sure what to say about your first three paragraphs, except that they helped me understand alot better. As for the 4th.. I think I'll go post on the forums now. Thanks for the advice. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 11:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Thats pretty cool, seems like you an actual jmod to reply pretty quickly. But before you post back and say that a Jmod called the video a hoax (yeah I found the thread [5]), please remember that he probably did not know what video you were talking about and replied generally as even I would have when asked question like that.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 11:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh. Alright, thanks, I made another post =] feel free to read up. And actually, I should be going to sleep, I'll be back on later in the day (it's morning already lol). Gn everyone, discuss discuss.--Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 12:02, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I would rather wait until Jagex replies to this.

Please answer the following questions:

  • "Honestly, you seem to be just adding requirement after requirement when it comes to verifiability." What requirement have I added? Verifiability is key to this wiki. Because anyone can edit this wiki and post fake images, a user must be able to verify whether the images are genuine. Speculation based on hard evidence is still speculation. We do not speculate. Period.
  • How are the models obtained? What kind of software is required, and is this software publicly available? I am an average user, and this wiki is for all users, not some select user who has the ability to "decode" some cache files in the computer.
  • Please state which software is used to obtain the models, and how it is done. We want to verify for ourselves that these images are available in our cache files.
  • How reliable is RSMV.rar? (It was not released by Jagex.) How do I know if this software can be trusted not to mess with the existing files?

  az talk   13:50, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per TEbuddy

  • I'm downloading RSMV right now ; so I might change my idea but I think it looks reliable

bad_fetustalk 14:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC) (

Slight support - I don't see any violation of RS:NIP. Even if there is a slight change from the policy, it still goes with RS:IAR.

Articles about items that players have found pictures of on the official site are allowed to be created. This includes, but isn't limited to, Runecrafting talismans and some dragon items.
RS:NIP

Okay, this isn't exactly the case. However, the official site uploads these "pictures" to your computer when you download the RuneScape client.

There's a problem though; as every model is just one piece, we cannot start speculating what it is used for. Therefore, only easily recognised items (i.e. Dragon warhammer) should have articles made. By the way, the videos of the models are quite old. Will this even work anymore? dictature 15:29, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Guys, I used WinRAR to "decode/extract the cache files". But, the the file I actually decoded/extracted was RSMV.rar. It's nothin' high-tech, it's as if you were just extracting (with windows extractor) a zipped folder(RSMV.rar instead of .zip in this case). I'm only saying these are similar in theory, probably very different processes though. I posted the tutorial to download on the d-pick talkpage, so go there. Gtg now, be back later today. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 17:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - I hate when people post on the forums saying 'oh, mod blabla said this' and 'look here and here, you can see a blabla'. I would hate to see the Wiki filled with that rubbish (to put it nicely). Especially since it often takes years to come out, is cancelled or whatever. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 19:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Why not? The dragon pickaxe, and soul altar/tiara/talisman have been confirmed, why not give them articles with very possbile information? It's better than having nothing. And when they do come out, if they look like my evidence, GREAT, I was right.
And to 10findland01, yes, this still works perfectly, regardless of the date the video was uploaded. --65.37.19.111 19:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC) Ugh, sorry, I wasn't logged in when I posted this ^ --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 19:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I was talking about unconfirmed things. Things that have been confirmed, such as the Dragon Pickaxe or the Poison Arrow, should of course have an article. However, rumours (especially ones about some mod saying something (and you cannot prove that they have said it)) should not have an article, unless they are well-known, such as the Black partyhat. By the way, hacking into RuneScape files is illegal, as Azliq said. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 19:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Oli, sure, yeah. We don't have to make a Music Skillcape article, even though I did find a model of the cape (it is kewl.), since it's not confirmed. But since Dragon Pickaxe and Soul altar/staff/tali/tiara SHOULD have an article, since they are confirmed. And since 3/5 of those have an article, wouldn't it be right to add more information that has been found(the models)? And no, it is not illegal. As Tebuddy said under this post, the files are already on our computer. Notice how after every update to the game (new quest, etc.), the startup screen takes a lil longer? Yeah, that's because it has to update the RuneScape client to the new update. This includes adding more .dat files to the jagex cache on our computer. It is not illegal, as we are simply "uncompressing" them. The .dat files are just very small files, but they can be opened/extracted/uncompressed/whatever you wanna call it, so we can see them. RSMV is the way used to do this. I'm sure someone else could make another program to do it, but the RSMV.rar file we use to view the models is the one mentioned here. WinRAR extracts RSMV, RSMV takes files from the jagex_cache, and wah-lah, models. It's not illegal- look at TEbuddy's post. He explains it perfectly. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I have seen the video on YouTube. However, how can you prove that they are, in fact, models of the Music Skillcape or the Dragon Pickaxe? Maybe they are models of something completely different! Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
How can you not? Compare the image on the back of the "Music Skillcape" to this: Music icon.png... Do you see a difference? I don't. Some things are just obvious. Obviously, an altar with the soul symbol on it is the soul altar. Fire altar, take away the fire symbol in your mind, put on the soul symbol. Some things are just obvious. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:27, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't obvious to me. I thought it looked more like a bird. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for using smilies here but... -_- A bird? Are you blind? No offense, but I think anyone could see that that is the music lyre. The one in the bottom right of our runescape interface. The one that when we click, lists about 600 songs. Anyone could notice that. Do you want me to take another screenshot with it rotated so you can see it better? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
No, I believe you. It just looked a bit like a bird, but yes, I realised that it was a lyre. It was just an example. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
By the way, I was talking about a YT video, not about your images. They are very clear. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Alright, thank you. So do you agree that it's VERY possible that could be a future Music Skillcape (even though in our eyes, it IS the music skillcape) made by Jagex? 'Seems possible to me, why not, we have a quest cape, and I even heard and upcoming Achievement Diary cape, to finish off the Achievement outfit. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC) And ty, I rather like my screenies myself, lol.--Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:50, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that it could well be the music skillcape. However, there is no real proof. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
...That's not proof? Seems like proof to me.. Considering it's from the files RuneScape has stored on my computer, aka Runescape files, aka Jagex files, aka files made by Jagex!! I think you get the point. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, you cannot completely prove that it is, in fact, the music skillcape (no need to convince me that it is), and more importantly: Maybe they cancelled the project? Look at Wilderness Tagging: that turned out as something completely different than what they first said. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 07:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - AZ ill try to answer your questions and not veer too far off topic:

1. It was not meant to be insulting or rude, excuse me if it came out that way. Even if I got a jmod to say "sure we actually encourage that because it leads to better things and community awareness" then I bet some people here would still oppose it.

2. The files are obtained from your game directory cache, for me on Vista x64 its located at C:\Windows\.jagex_cache_32. The software/tools you need to access the files listed in that directory already exist, and are released for free by SUN microsystems, the creators of JAVA the language that Runescape was created with.

3. You need to download a 3d model viewer (RSMV in this case), retreieve the latest cache of files from your hard drive (performed by a .bat script file created with commands released by SUN), then wait while it either takes the model from the file directly or creates it using procedural texturing (interesting stuff [http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws?guid=dev_diary08a]--Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC) [6]). Finally after you have the model files, you open up a model viewer like RSMV and view the files you just extracted from your game files.

4. Its not really a question of the RAR as thats just how the author chose to distribute it. The methods the program uses to obtain the files are completely legitimate and legal. But its like asking how reliable your web browser is when your reading Runescapes main page. Because it wasn't created by Jagex it could be giving you false information, right?

I would like to say that the rule about no speculation was designed around the fact that at the time of the speculation you have zero actual evidence to work with. The policy needs to be changed to reflect this new method of obtaining game textures and models. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - I am not convinced that this won't be interpreted by Jagex as some form of reverse engineering, until a statement by Jagex says otherwise. --Quarenon  Talk 21:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you read this whole page? We've discussed how this isn't reverse-engineering, mostly discussed by TEBuddy. Scroll up and read his posts. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I have read it, and as I've said, the arguments aren't convincing to me at least. --Quarenon  Talk 21:56, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Well I'm not entirely sure what everyone means by "reverse-engineering". Clear things up for me? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:59, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Stop trying to tell people it isn't something if you don't even know what it means. Andrew talk 22:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Reverse engineering is a term used to describe the act of learning how something works by taking it apart and then recreating it your own way to perform essentially the same function. Definitely not what is happening here. How about we look at the entire video game industry, I can in less than a minute name you 5 companies/games that currently distribute data files to the client side with beta/unfinished/cancelled content. You know why game companies cannot forbid users to go through their files compressed/created with free or professional tools? Because that would be like me creating something based off a design or product that I did not create, and then forbidding anyone else to modify it. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
@Soldier: No need to be rude. I didn't say it as if I stated it. I said that TEBuddy stated it. Maybe you wouldn't be as confused if I said something like, "Tebuddy already stated the reasons why this isn't reverse-engineering," and I support that statement again, as Tebuddy has posted another paragraph describing it, and why this isn't it. And I DO know what it is, so don't assume that I don't, I just wanted to clear things up so I was absolutely sure what it was because I haven't heard the term in a long while!--Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 00:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
@Tebuddy: Thanks, that cleared things up alot more. Now people who DON'T know what it means *cough* know what it means, and that this obviously isn't reverse engineering, thanks to your post. I agree... the only way this could be reverse engineering is if we took the models and used them as our own, such as our own private server. Right? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 00:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
TEbuddy, I strongly believe you are trying to mould the definition of 'reverse engineering' in order to support your argument. Have a look at the Wikipedia article. There is far more to it than just trying to reproduce the game client. --Quarenon  Talk 13:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Have a look at this RS forum thread. On page 2, forum mod Spearmint30 writes, "In simple terms, Reverse Engenerring referrs to taking the data sent to you by the RuneScape servers and using it for purposes other than gameplay. Any 3rd party program that interferes or in some way utilizes the connection between your browser and the RuneScape server for ANY non-gameplay purpose will be against the rules." If RSMV is making any connection to the RuneScape servers then according to this definition by a Jagex forum mod, it will be against Jagex rules. --Quarenon  Talk 13:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Part Two

There is so much txt on this page the lag left me totaly unable to edit it, so I chose to create a new half for a more lag-free editing.

Oppose - this wiki is for factual informaiton, and if we are not 100% sure what is fact and what is not, lets play it safe and not have it on the wiki. Az also has a great point that should be taken into consideration. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 02:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

If Jagex put these files on our computer, how could they be fake? They are on our hard drive from the first time we play RuneScape (thanks tebuddy), and anything made by Jagex, stored on our computer.. just, how is it fake?! This models in this program don't come with the RSMV package! You don't download these off the internet! They're already there. We do however download RSMV so we can VIEW the models. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 03:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
alright, so the immages are of something that we know will exist, but what exactly is that
thing? are we sure that skillcape is for finding all the songs in rs or will there be a new
music skill? is that a dragon pickaxe or a new weapon? Untill we have viable proof that
the immages are what we think they are, it is better to not jeperdise the consept of the wiki.

Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 12:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The models were included in the WinRar download (42Mb, 40k+ files). However, the RSMV.rar contained a method of extracting the models from the computer.   az talk   11:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - We are talking about content developed by Jagex and put onto your computer by their java applet. They did this, not some third party, not some loser trying to cheat the game, but Jagex the official creators and developers of the game Runescape. Perhaps this can clear some misconceptions up for a few people [7]. Speaking in fact, the game files are there. Whether you want to acknowledge their existence or not, they exist on your hard drive and can be looked at. Our interpretation based on this information can vary, but we are all basing the speculation on something we can view and source quite easily. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 02:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I am just not sure what goes on when RSMV runs. Again, I'm not quite familiar with Java per se, but I am quite familiar with programming language.

Have a look at the .java files. The program logs on into one of the RuneScape servers (world 138) to get some version information. If the program only deals with cache files in the computer, why log on into a RS server? Wouldn't your IP be recorded by Jagex if the program logs into a RS server? Jagex might think that the user is using third party software, and there may be a possibility of getting banned. (I'm not too sure about this, but someone with proper Java programming skills could explain what's happening in more detail.)

And, how do we know if the RSMV program (RSMV.exe) was created without any reverse engineering knowledge? Is there a source code for this? The source code is in Main.pas.   az talk   11:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

If your referring to this bit:
}
    private int version = 503;
    private static String address = "world138.runescape.com";
    private static int port = 43594;

    private Socket socket;
    private InputStream input;
    private OutputStream output;
}

I would reasonably assume all that does is check with the server for the latest version of the file cache. If your worried about being banned, then stop, theres is no way to tell whether a human within a web browser initated the connection, or a bat file or Java program did. Even if they could determine that information, as of yet you havent entered any account information so they have no account information to ban even if they felt like doing it anyway. Even if they did that, they would have to determine whether or not your on a public IP like a library computer that could have been in use by hundreds of Runescape accounts in the past. What I am getting at here is that there is zero chance of getting banned by using the applet. As far as Jagex is concerned, my IP address connected to the server and then quit a few seconds later. I'm not even sure that they even log such things as connections just to the game client as it could list in the millions of IP addresses because we havent even gotten to the login screen yet. As for RSMV, it is a 3d model viewing program, no information classified as "secret" by Jagex was needed to create it so in the end there is nothing to reverse engineer and no way to break rule. I just got a little curious and decided to test whether or not the program you run to decompress the models even actually downloads anything from the server that you dont already have. I deleted my Jagex cache file, and removed the models folder from the RSMV directory and this was the result [8]. If it was going to connect to the server and do what we are afraid of it doing, it would have done so just now. Because it didn't, I can only assume that it connects to a Runescape world only to collect information about the client version so it knows what method to use to decompress the model files, and that is all.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 12:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

According to Rule 12 effective 12 May 2009:
You must not use other software to gain an unfair advantage in our games. This includes automation tools, macros, bots, or auto-typers. You may not circumvent any of our mechanisms designed to automatically log out inactive users.

You also must not use any game-specific, third-party software that encourages breaking of our rules, or bypasses the normal navigation of our website, or automatically requests pages from our website, or which endangers user accounts.

...

2. What type of third-party software is NOT allowed? ...

4. Modified or replacement versions of our game applets. Reverse-engineering our game applets is strictly prohibited. Using a modified version of our game applets is not permitted for any reason. Third-party software that displays pages/content from our website(s), and that has specific features (i.e. toolkits) must not be used to access our website unless that software conforms with all of the other rules, and the following additional rules: ...

  • It must not bypass the normal navigation of our website for users wishing to reach the game worlds. The software should initially only point at the front page of our websites, and should require the user to navigate through the website normally to reach the game worlds. The software must not contain or acquire direct links to our "Select a world" page, or to our game world pages, or to the applet.

3. What do you mean by "software"?

Software means any type of program, including: downloadable software (e.g an .exe file), or web-based software (e.g a website set up to perform a similar function with flash, java, javascript or serverside scripts).

Jagex may not be bothered to log the IPs, but there is a chance of being banned, however slim. "Private server" users have been banned before, and recently Jagex announced that they have updated their macro-detection software. You can accuse me of being overcautious, but these are the things users should know before they start using third-party software.   az talk   13:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
TEbuddy, can you provide the file names and line numbers from which you extracted those lines? I can't find .java files anywhere in the download, what I do find are .pas files which are Pascal source files, not Java, and what you produced is definitely Java source code and not Pascal. Maybe there's a different .rar than the one I downloaded? :/ --Quarenon  Talk 13:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
There are two versions of RSMV.rar. One without the models, and one with the models. The .java files are located in the one with the models. (Roughly 42mb, 40k+ files when extracted)   az talk   13:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Az, it seems like I do have the wrong one, looking for the other download now. --Quarenon  Talk 13:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Sigh, this conversation tires me. Az, I don't see any conflict RSMV might have with the rules above. I don't think they break them.. Do you think they do? It's not like we're "accessing" the website, it comes with RuneScape. The files come with the applet the first time you play. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 16:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
You're missing the point entirely. I'm talking about RSMV.exe and the other files (.java, .pas, etc.) that came with RSWM.rar. I know perfectly well that the cache files came with the applet. Btw, have you seen your post in RuneScape Forums? A mod replied, and it's quoted somewhere above by Quarenon.
In simple terms, Reverse Engenerring referrs to taking the data sent to you by the RuneScape servers and using it for purposes other than gameplay. Any 3rd party program that interferes or in some way utilizes the connection between your browser and the RuneScape server for ANY non-gameplay purpose will be against the rules.
Extracting the models comes under "non-gameplay purpose". A code within the program shows that it accesses the RuneScape server for information. So, it is definitely against the rules. The mod couldn't be any clearer than that.   az talk   16:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - It's too much! Theres so many policies, so many rules, we're actually getting into legal stuff. This is way to far, if we just say NO it stays plain and simple, like it should be. --— Enigma 16:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per enigma. All of this just because of 6 images. Just leave them to your userpage diriz.--Joe Click Here for Awesomeness 17:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Quarenon, the version you have doesnt matter because the program will decompress the latest cache version as long as you have launched the game and allowed it to cache files at some point. The file I opened for viewing was main.java and the section of code you want is near the bottom of the file (its very short). I think you may have accidentally downloaded the source code rar instead of the actual program. Unfortunately AZ, this is exactly what I meant when I said you will stop at nothing to oppose this. In no way does RSMV or its attached scripts break Rule 12 in any way. Second of all, the quote by a player mod made in that thread is not endorsed by Jagex in any way and hence is no more clear than if I had posted in that thread saying its completely legitimate to do what you choose with Jagex cache files. AZ you need to understand that this is not a macro, its not illegal, its like if I created a bat file that opened up a Runescape world in a web browser and you saying you wont use it because you might get banned. It doesn't make any sense. Take a look at this quote from the macro update:

"We have reviewed all the macro programs available, and there are none we cannot detect.". How can you not see that they are talking about programs that actually create unfair advantages by performing complex actions or repetitive grinding automatically. Even after that, I just described how on a technical level it would not be possible to fairly distribute bans without knowing who or how many people you may be banning.

As for enigma and 2+2, it saddens me that your stance on a discussion is instantly oppose just because we are actually talking about an issue and a wall of text has been created Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Why should I stop opposing this if I sincerely believe that doing this is wrong. Please back up your claims with facts. The software (RMSV.exe) accesses (or contains code that accesses) the RuneScape server ("game world pages"). This wiki should not condone using third-party software that is not endorsed by Jagex. Unless Jagex specifically states that accessing the cache files is legal, I will not be convinced.
If we allowed these images, even if they are legit, we are allowing the use of sources other than the game client, and the website. How do we licence these "leaked" images? Is "Fair use" acceptable for unpublished/unreleased images?   az talk   19:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I am no Java programmer, but you can interpret certain functions without too much difficulty. But unless you can prove that that particular section of code connects to a Jagex servers and peforms a rule breaking action, then you have nothing to go on. As far as I can tell, all it does is open a connection. Do you see any code about transferring/downloading files from the client? And even if that was the case, why would it be in the end of the applets code? Like I said before and maybe Quarenon can shed some light on this, all I think it does is either check to see if you have loaded the applet before, or check what version of the game client is live so the program knows what method to decompress/where to find the game cache files.

I was also looked around main.java and found this line:

FileOutputStream fileoutputstream = new FileOutputStream("./Models/"+id+".dat");

Now it seems to me like it is decompressing model files located at /models/ with the filename ending in .dat.

We would not be infringing on Jagex copyright and this would be classified under fair use [9]. Also because the files were published to your hard drive with encryption or some sort of protection to prevent any tampering whatsoever.

Where do you get the ability to interpret what we should do beyond the rules? As long as it doesn't harm the community or break any rules, why should anything not endorsed by Jagex not be allowed. Until about two months ago Jagex didn't endorse any fansite in existence, and they still don't endorse this website in particular. under your reasoning shouldn't this website have not been created because the almighty Jagex gods didn't endorse it? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 20:05, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

In Java, it does not matter where you place the code, as they are contained in classes.
For now, we do not know whether this thing breaks any rules or not. Jagex hasn't replied. If they considered this rule-breaking, this wiki should not be held responsible to promoting rule-breaking. (You can say it doesn't, and I say it does.) We can go back and forth with this discussion, but the ball's in Jagex's court. If they don't have problems with it, then we can do this. Until then, there's no reason to upload these "leaked" images.   az talk   21:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I say it does not based on the current rules and information I have gathered about exactly what the program does and does not do. You say it does based on speculation (alot of what ifs) some twisted interpretaion of the Jagex rules (which are worded very clearly with little room for that sort of thing) and your own personal philosiphy. Instead of being a reasonable person and coming to some sort of compromise, you just want to have an issue you don't like locked down until I or someone else can get Jagex involved which you know will not happen anytime soon or ever. You have also yet to answer roughly 50% of my rebuttals and examples in most of my replies to your comments which leaves me to believe you don't really care about the actual reasoning or thought process behind them but you only care about preserving what you think is right as I said in one of my first posts. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 20:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Really, checking this conversation like every hour tires me. I might just close it, it's not too much of a big deal. But really... I think we should hear from Jagex first. I keep bumping the thread, and they aren't answering. Seems they only answer once, sadly. I want this forum over and done with, to anyone else reading this, make a thread asking them the same thing, I can't just keep bumping a thread they won't answer. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 01:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that the models are loaded from the cached files in the computer. I won't go into details but I will if I must.
If the models are based on the cache files located in the computer, why isn't there any reference in the code that points to the local directory? No where within the code is the folder "jagex_cache_32" mentioned. The program logs on into the RS server, and not "only to collect information about the client version", but downloads the entire thing. It locates where the models are stored in their server, based on some byte location (or something like that), and outputs them into the "Models" folder.
So, if you asked me if I "see any code about transferring/downloading files from the client?", I would say I do.   az talk   05:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Even from your twisted view how does that make any sense? You cant dispute the fact that Jagex stores content on your computer. Why would someone write a program that downloads those same files from the server thereby copying them, and then decompressing them? Honestly... its getting ridiculous to reply to your claims now. Even from a technical aspect, so the program runs, connects to the applet, intercepts the file transfer and moves it to the models folder, and then decompresses them? So then why would Jagex store data files on your computer in the first place? Gah Nvm. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's what it does if the "Models" folder are deleted. The newly uploaded version contains the full "Models" folder which was extracted previously. You can ask anyone with enough technical knowledge about Java programming to confirm you that. The models are loaded directly from the RS server through the "getInputStream" command.
byte b[] =  pack.unpack(download().buffer);

public CacheChunk download() throws IOException
   input.read(dHead);
   input.read(jHead);

   and so on...
}

where:

public boolean connect(String server, int port, int version) throws IOException {
     input = socket.getInputStream();
     socket = new Socket(server, port);
}

  az talk   06:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I have contacted the person credited in "main.java", Miss Silabsoft, and she has stated that using the program is against RuneScape rules T&C.   az talk   06:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

comment - Please post the question you asked and her answer. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Question: By using RSMV, am I breaking any RS rules? How about using the cache unpacker? Is that against the rules?

Answer: technically yes... but you are at a cheating website (a RS hacking site where Miss Silabsoft is a moderator, and where the RSMV.rar originated from) so you must not care too much.

Question: How is it breaking a rule? I'm guessing it breaks Rule 12, but I don't see how. Could you explain further?

Answer: (The "Intellectual property rights" section in the Terms and Conditions is quoted.)

  az talk   07:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Right, but her interpreation of the rules is based on the fact that to run a private server you need to reuse RSMV for a rule breaking purpose that both she and her community members participate in. I have quoted the IP section of the TOS here and underlined the actual terms for clarity.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

The non commercial, fair use use of this content does not violate any of these terms. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The method of getting it (and not the content) is what bothers me. The method used by Silabsoft is against the T&C, and she knows it.   az talk   07:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I think her opinion of the matter is that anything shes does with Runescape is illegal because she runs a Runescape cheating website. The reason she said technically is because technically, no its not against the rules to download the game files like your going to play the game and then decompress them for viewing. But the reason she said technically yes and followed up with the comment of you being there is because she knows that the majority of people who decompress the models aren't using them for documentation. I define a cheating program similar to how Jagex does. A program that gives you an unfair advantage. This program (which is not the only method of obtaining or decompressing the cache files) only does what it does so you can use the files non commercially and under fair use.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 08:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Find another sofware that decompresses the cache files, without decompiling the client.

This software, RSMV.exe, has codes/classes that was decompiled from the client. It uses models that are downloaded directly from the servers. The unpacker software comes from a hacking site, created by a hacker, and is used for hacking RS clients. Even though the creator/developer admits this, you refuse to acknowledge that it is against the T&C.

You use your own interpretation to validate your arguments. I bet that even if Jagex says it's illegal, you would find a way to make it legal. *sigh*

I believe we need to ask the community's opinion on this. Most of the discussion contains arguments from Tebuddy, Quarenon, the original poster (Lil diriz), and me. A wider audience would be needed if a change in policy is required, and I would strongly oppose it if it ever came to that. I have provided my reasons for opposing this, and Tebuddy has provided his reasons for supporting this.

I'm requesting an impartial admin/crat to post this forum thread in the SiteNotice, since it requires community feedback.   az talk   08:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I rely on a very direct whats written is whats meant interpretation of the rules. The problem I see with the silab thing is that you assume because she is a Java programmer that writes Runescape applications she is automatically a black hat hacker. And how you generalize silab's intentions with the program is extremely bias, it was created to grab models not magically hack the servers and find a backdoor and break every Runescape rule in existence. What she or her community members do with said models once they are on your hard drive is out of this discussions concerns. This discussion has also unwittingly become a discussion on the legality of one program when it should be in a broader sense about whether or not images obtained from the cache can be legitimately used, in which case any method that doesnt break the rules as you interpret them would be ok then. My point is that silab assumes that you intend to create your own private server or reuse it for something that is not classified as fair use, that is why as I said in my last post she said "technically yes" and not yes. And no, if Jagex came out and said "we dont approve of this and it is bannable" then yeah you can bet your overly protective opinions that I would cease to endorse it on this wiki. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 09:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose Per Az. Even though the information is stored on your machine, it is not yours to do with as you please. In my opinion, it is in fact de-engineering, and although it does not directly affect the game, it's much like music: You can get it onto your hard drive and use it as much as you please, but it's not yours to legally touch at all. Think about it: If Jagex wanted anybody to see what they had "given" you, than they would have made it very blunt. No, they put it inside Java, the program you need to run the game. If I recall, the information was encrypted as well(?) All and all, I take it as this fine example: If you had a government document on your hard drive and opened it, that's a federal crime, so why would this be any different? Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 15:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - From the Terms and Conditions, effective 15th June, 2009:

You must not reverse-engineer, decompile or modify any Jagex Product client software in any way (except to the extent allowed by applicable law). You must not use a modified/customised version of the client software or attempt to sub-license it. You must not create or provide any other means by which any Jagex Product may be played by others (including, without limitation, replacement or modified client/server software, server emulators).

Materials (including without limit all information, software, data, text, photographs, graphics, sound and video) placed on any Jagex Product by us or on our behalf are protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights of ourselves or our business partners / suppliers / advertisers. You may not use these materials or any Jagex Product except in accordance with these terms and conditions and for personal (i.e. non-commercial) use only.

This clearly states that reverse-engineering and decompiling is against the Terms and Conditions, as well as stating that all data used in the game and stored on your computer is copyrighted material. I don't know what that says to decompressing the graphics on your local computer, but it does mean that posting them on this site is not permitted. All of the images on this site are posted because they help provide information about the actual game (see Fair use on wikipedia). I don't see how posting images not used in the playable game can be considered fair use. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 15:34, June 24, 2009 (UTC) 

Comment - Thanks for putting this in the SiteNotice. I don't know much else to say, mostly because this is getting into java, and very technical stuff that I don't understand too well. I've been reading this and I'm understanding better, but you're all doing a great job discussing it. Thanks for the feedback, and well.. keep talkin'. I can see where both Az and Tebuddy are coming from, but we need JAGEX. Not just the community, or some "ranked" people on RS wiki, or a private server maker, no. We need Jagex to answer. As I said before, make a thread on the RS forums asking this please. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 17:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Evil Yanks (right up the top). Statistics.png Lvl 3 skils3 Choice! Talk~ Holiday Signup ~Hiscores 18:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Last username the entire section of the TOS you quoted is about IP rights and fair use when it comes to re-liscensing and reselling their product for your own personal gain or running a private server. Personal use of these images (as in not for sale, not liscened, strictly documented only for speculation/education) is perfectly legitimate and clearly falls within fair use. As established earlier (I think even AZ agrees with this) there is no reverse engineering involved as the program is only connecting to the Runescape server as you would if you opened Runescape.com in a web browser. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - what about created a template that would be placed on pages (like the "article under construction") noting this information is not confirmed. I believe it is useful for the people who use this site to know possible updates ect.  Magic longbow.pngCurrently at 86мϊţ¢Ħ Fletching

Support Mitch's idea - Many people including I use the wiki for that reason. That's a great idea Mitch! Anybody else have an opinion on this? --65.37.19.111 23:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Per Az and Evil Yanks. And I am not convinced that the rules for noncommercial fair use apply here either. Our Wikia is advertisement-based, and while none of us is getting paid for this, we are generating ad revenue for the Wikia and we are a commercial site, I believe. This seems like it would be commercial use. Horsehead Talk 00:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment In Awe - Are you....serious? I admit sometimes I twist things around to get my argument in the right light now and then, but that....that is just...ridiculous. So according to you, any content on the wiki as of now protected by Jagex IP rights that we are using under fair use needs to be removed on the basis that our webhost through ads, makes money. I don't even think you could find a crook lawyer to support that argument. 00:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, AZ. I made an account on both silabsoft forums and moparisbest to find out more information about the program, and here is what I found out:

Silabsoft: Yes, bentski is the creator of RSVM, I have wrote a runescape model viewer as well, I was answering the questions about mine, not his.

So it turns out we were discussing the wrong program. I am going to ask bentski for more information about how his program works more specifically. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 01:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps you are, TEbuddy. I do deal with fair use issues frequently and with artists, authors, and software companies who are extremely protective of their copyright. I'm saying an argument based on fair use and noncommercial use is perhaps not the strongest argument to make here. High-tech companies regularly send cease-and-desist notices to web sites that publish leaked information, and it is not uncommon for high-tech companies to pursue legal action against web sites that publish leaked information. At a time when Jagex is reaching out to fan sites, why would we do something that could possibly jeopardize a relationship with it? Horsehead Talk 01:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - No I am not a lawyer and I apologize if I came off brash. Its been established that Jagex regularly visits websites that publish leaked and illegal content willingly or unwillingly (youtube for example, they have an account). I went to youtube a second ago and found video walkthroughs of the process used to obtain the files readily available. Seeing as how all Jagex would need to do is contact Youtube with a short e-mail and have the video removed (as many hundreds of companies do every day to to videos infringing copyright), tell me why Jagex would choose first to contact a wikia whom they do not recognize (with no illegal advertising as opposed to fansites they actually do recognize) to make legal threats about content being very heavily moderated via very strict policies. On top of that, if we (or wikia) ever did receive a cease and desist notice, I do not doubt that immediately the content would be removed by either wikia or anyone online at the time. Also, Jagex failed to recognize us as a fansite at the time they loosened their rules about fansites and did not include us in the original list in which sites like RHQ and Zybez were listed. As of now they have repeatedly refused to acknowledge us despite numerous attempts to contact them. So I don't think we are in danger of jeopardizing a relationship we are not part of. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 02:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Why would they want to contact a "fansite" that is breaking their rules and trying to hack Runescape Files? There is no relationship and they have not contacted us beacause some people try promoting cheating. Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 03:03, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
* We are a fansite in every definition of the word. An open fansite that allows anyone to edit its content, but a fansite nonetheless.
  • They chose not to contact us months ago when they contacted every other popular fansite. How could our discussion about a questionable program two months after the fact have had any influence on whether or not they chose to recognize us?
  • We have not done anything against the rules ever, and in my opinion we are usually overcautious when it comes to Jagex rules.
  • We cannot speculate on what they want because they choose to remain quiet about everything. Maybe if they responded to a forum post, e-mail, or letter we would have some answers.
  • I hope your not referring to me because I have no affiliation with runescape cheating websites or hacking applications. RSMV is a model viewer and until Jagex informs anyone it is illegal I have no qualms about using it.

And Azliq maybe you havent checked the thread you made on mopar, but they seem to be in agreement when it comes to Jagex TOS and using the content as it qualifies as fair use [10] Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 04:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

"(I think even AZ agrees with this)" - No I don't. I believe there is some form of reverse engineering involved. I believe that one cannot get the models without prior knowledge of how it is packed in the first place. Some have tried, but eventually they resort to decompiling/deobfuscating the client, in order to find out how Jagex packes their files.
"I was answering the questions about mine, not his. -Miss Silabsoft" I was talking about the program to get the models (i.e. the unpacker program). The unpacker program, credited to Silabsoft, is used to get the models. You can't run Bentski's program, the Model Viewer, without the models unpacked with Silabsoft's program.
Although you are allowed to reverse engineer anything located on your pc, you are not allowed to release that to others. So plainly, a private server is legal as long as you don't send the cache or anything else that is property of Jagex Ltd.

Question: I've seen someone posted images of unreleased items such as Music cape on YouTube, and I was wondering if it can be posted in a fan website.

Answer: You are not allowed, unless Jagex gives you permission.

— The same forum stated above.
Please read the thread fully before commenting.   az talk   04:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The use of the word "release" in this case means to violate the TOS with a private server/client/cache/whatever you want it to be. We are not releasing or redistributing anything, hence this is fair use, hence this is legitimate. And yes, they agree that the TOS in a legal manner are not being violated. Most of them dont seem to agree on whether Jagex cares or not. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 04:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Release by definition (according to thefreedictionary.com) is "To make known or available." I believe Jagex will care, since we're "releasing" images of items they have not released yet.   az talk   05:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Microsoft released Windows Vista, Valve released Team Fortress 2, Apple Released the Itunes. We are not releasing anything. See what I mean? Two different meanings.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 05:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Microsoft created Windows Vista, hence they have permission to release it since they are the copyright holders. We did not create the files, so we cannot release them without the permission of the copyright holders (Jagex Ltd).
Whoever said that you may reverse engineer anything locally is wrong. Reverse engineering is specifically prohibited in the Terms and Conditions, effective 15th June, 2009. In any case, local reverse engineering is irrelevant, since we do not have permission to post them from Jagex and probably never will. Given that Jagex created the files, they hold the copyright on them, also mentioned in the Terms and Conditions, effective 15th June, 2009. The only reason we can post pictures used in the game at all is because it qualifies as fair use. Posting something that is not in the game yet and might not ever be in the game is hardly fair use, and as Randomly Crazy has said, this wiki is not a crystal ball. If you really wish to continue the discussion about what you can do on your local computer, we need to know more about how the information is stored and how it is unpacked. My interpretation (though not necessarily the legal meaning) is that if the files are simply compressed, you may decompress them and view them. If they are compressed, but somebody needed to reverse engineer the applet to figure out how to extract them, you are still allowed to extract and view them, but the person who reverse engineered the applet has broken the Terms and Conditions, effective 15th June, 2009. If they are encrypted, and you decrypt them, regardless of whether or not anyone has reverse engineered the applet, I would think that you are breaking the Terms and Conditions, effective 15th June, 2009, as this seems to me like it is reverse engineering in itself. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 19:36, June 25, 2009 (UTC) 

Strong Support If we can find a way to be 100% sure about that...

Strong Oppose ...If there isn't a way to prove it, absoloutly. Balance iz powa!4ndrepd TalkContribsStupid monkeys actually have a use...Jump to the God Wars II! 17:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose: The Wiki is not a crystal ball. RS:NOT#CRYSTAL Thihs was not mentioned in a Behind the Scenes, so we shouldn't put it on the wiki, according to the policies. --Randomly Crazy 17:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)\\

Comment - Last username you seem to miss my point, we are not releasing anything as I said above. The files are all over the internet, youtube, numerous forums, etc. All we are doing is putting them on a page and putting a nice description under them. How exactly, given everyone else hosting it, are we specifically breaking the fair use agreement? I know the wall of text is annoying to read through, but all of these arguments have been addressed before. Please read above about crystal ball and all that other stuff your clinging to. Also last username, no reverse engineering involved [11] Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: Reverse engineering: Well I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if decrypting would count as reverse engineering in any way. To me it just seems like it might.
RE: Crystal ball: I'm not saying that none of it has been acknowledged by Jagex. I'm saying that not all of it has, and those unconfirmed items should not be added. If Jagex has not said that they intend to use the images, we cannot make assumptions that it is for upcoming content. For all we know, it could have been an old idea that they never used and Jagex simply forgot to remove the images.
RE: Everyone else has it: The fact that everybody else is making the files available doesn't make it any less copyright infringing. For example, unauthorized copies of copyrighted software can be found in numerous places. Does that make it okay for everyone else to make pirated software available too? I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 20:32, June 25, 2009 (UTC) 
Where do you get decrypting from? File compression is file compression, its just a process of elimination to find the right way to decompress a file [12]. Why are we not allowed to speculate, because the policy says so? So what, change the dang policy. Crystal ball and its related policies assume that you have no evidence to go on (as also discussed earlier in this thread). Here is what this keeps coming back to, copyright claims are easy to make especially when it comes to websites like youtube (which you conveniently ignore they have an account and are active on). As you can see here [13] Jagex is not afraid to send nasty letters to people they don't agree with (was previously incorrect in assuming they had never sent any letters ever) so why haven't they done this to every website and youtube video advocating this procedure? So, Instead of saying "Well lets wait for Jagex to uncharacteristically make the first move and let us know whats up" lets test the waters and do it and as I said earlier. If they ever did send us or wikia a letter then we would remove the offending content within minutes. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Where do I get decrypting from? I get it from the possibility that the data is encrypted. Never have I said that it is encrypted, but I have said what that would mean if it was encrypted. Considering that nobody has said here how the data is stored, I have no way of knowing whether or not it is encrypted. All I know is that my archiver can't figure out a way to extract the data from any Jagex cache file on my computer. I fully understand what file compression and encryption are. I also understand that there are many compression algorithms that my archiver doesn't recognize. I'm just saying that since nobody has explained how exactly the data is stored, I can't say for certain if it's encrypted or not, so I provide my view for both possibilities. If you feel that posting the images is still fair use even if they're not part of the game, then that's your opinion. I'm saying that if they're not included, I don't think that we can really count it as fair use, but that's up to Jagex. If they let us do it, then fine. I just don't think it actually fits within our current policies, and this page isn't named "Crystal Ball policy change?". I suggest that we stop arguing about minor things that the other has said, and start thinking about whether or not to upload the pictures. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 22:03, June 25, 2009 (UTC) 

Oppose - This is getting too repetitive now. Regardless of whether we interpret their ToS to mean this is reverse engineering or not, or decryption or whatever, it doesn't really matter. Jagex themselves have not stated that we can use them, so until they do, I say we should not use them. Not using them will at least avoid reprecussions from Jagex for violating their ToS, should they decide to explicitly make this against their ToS. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 21:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Agreed that this is becoming too repetitive. Here are my closing points and most likely my last post in this thread.

  • 1. Jagex clearly has no qualms about sending legal letters threatening action if content they believe infringes their copyright is not removed. Youtube videos exist [14]. Websites advocating cheating and this program exist [15]. As of yet neither of these resources has been contacted or removed by Jagex. My point remains that if Jagex didn't want it there and they had the right to remove it, it wouldn't be there.
  • 2. Use of this content in no way violates Jagex copyright. We are a volunteer based non commerical fan website with the goal of providing information about Runescape. The way we use this content is completely legitimate and clearly falls under the terms of fair use. We are not manipulating the content in any way for our own personal gain, nor are we re-liscening it. [16] [17]
  • 3. At the time of writing the not a crystal ball policy [18] and non existent item policy [19] did not consider the possibility that we would have a legitimate way to see how Jagex is planning future updates. Based on this I believe it would be wise as we have done in the past to modify the policies to match the current situation. The files that we are speculating on were found in the game cache that Jagex uses to store files on your computer, such a thing clearly suggests that they intend to use the items in some way in a future update.
  • 4. There is no reverse engineering involved in the process used to obtain the files. Information is gathered using free tools created by Sun microsystems (the creators of Java) [20]. The files are not encrypted in any way and are compressed using the same method available to all developers who use Java. The TOS found here [21] and game rules found here [22] were written to account for cheating programs written to intercept data transfer between the client and the server and then modify that data for cheating purposes. The programs and methods used today to decompress the models stored on your computer do not violate these rules at all.
  • 5. Jagex has not responded to questions asked about the methods used or the programs involved either on the official game forums, e-mails, or letters. [23].

Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose per Evil yanks. ShinyUnown T | C | E 00:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I want this done and over with, as we simply CAN NOT base this on our own opinions. We need Jagex's say if we are allowed to post this or not, and because of this, I have posted a new thread in the RuneScape Forums which is worded so much better, and has a better chance of Jagex replying with the correct information we need. The thread can be found here: [24] This has been a great discussion, but the only way to end it is with Jagex's say. Keep your eye on this thread, as it is the key to ending the discussion with an answer: can we/ should we post this to our Wiki? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 01:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Even if Jagex says yes, the putting of info onto our site will most likely require a consensus. This would mean that even with a green light, the info/models may not be on the wiki until Jagex releases the actual content in Runescape. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 03:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, yeah, even if we do get Jagex's OK, we need to discuss it among our OWN rules anyway.--Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 08:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Splitting

Comment - Hey... WAIT A MINUTE. With the creation of the Dragon Platebody article, the first edit (shown here: [25]) included an image of the head banner compared to the MODEL of the DRAGON PLATEBODY:

File:Dragonplate.png

This image was created two months before the release of the dragon platebody and the creation of it's article (but obviously wasn't on the d pl8 article yet, was probably on the Spinning plate article or something), therefore, Karlis released an image of the model before it's release by Jagex! He's in the same situation as I am. If he can release an image of the D Pl8's model before it's release by Jagex, why can't I release an image of the D Pick's model before it's release by Jagex? And I'm sure this image wasn't released by Jagex first as I've seen the same exact model in RSMV (it's file name is 40207.dat), and I can't find the image anywhere on the RuneScape or Jagex websites. Karlis must've had Jagex's and RS Wiki's greenlight/OK/"Go ahead"/etc. to do this, so shouldn't I have the same? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 08:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC) Also! In the image summary, Karlis calls the model part of the image a "teaser". Is this just a nickname for "model"? Is Karlis trying to cover up the fact that it's a model? Is Karlis planning to take over the world? Is Karlis truly evil and part devil, who has an army of hell-penguins ready to invade Earth? I doubt the last two, but the first two could be very possible... *looks around cautiously*... --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 08:19, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

oppose - It seems to me for every argument about why we should there is one on why we shouldn't and from what I've read above I believe it's illegal to release these images. We can speculate on this all we want, but I personally won't be convinced otherwise until an actual lawyer that specializes in copyright laws with regards to files downloaded to computers, or whatever specialization that is, comes on here and can quote laws saying that the files can be opened up and the contents published without the consent of the files creators. For now, I say play it safe and don't do it..or question the big-wikis, er..big-wigs for this site and get their opinion since it's their servers that the info would be published on. Vadanea 10:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


Oppose - RSMV is a product of reverse-engineering and is specifically banned by RuneScape in their T&C. Use of the RSMV to look at models is probably also counted as reverse engineering.

While the right to reverse engineer is protected in the US jurisdiction via rulings from the Supreme Court, (US matters here because that's where Wikia is hosted), recent DMCA rulings suggest that it may no longer be the case. Such protection would provide immunity from the clause as per "(except to the extent allowed by applicable law)"

In any case Wikia is most likely to respond in Jagex's favour in terms of cease-and-desist, so it wouldn't reach the courts.

Even if it's not illegal, there are two remaining points:

1. If we wish to become a respected fansite (I'm still working on this and am looking at the approach FunOrb Wikia took to see how it can be done as Wiki.), then this sort of content is a no-go.

2. If we use the models, we'll need to come up with a policy which defines final and ultimate boundaries for this sort of thing, to prevent truly unfounded speculation (we'd be limited in ability to verify the findings) and actual illegal usage. King Runite1 10:54, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Neutral, leaning towards oppose - As of right now, I'm keeping an eye on that forum thread asking if it would be allowed. If Jagex clearly states that it is not allowed to be used, then there we go, straight from their mouths. But, even if they say that we can use them, I would still be somewhat cautious about it, as per RS:NIP. It states that using third party software to find the images will not be allowed to be used in the pages. ~MuzTalk 13:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose – Per everything said above. The wiki will never condone using illegally obtained images or files. We are an encyclopedia about Runescape, and we get all our information from Runescape, not some 3rd party software. Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 13:39, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Doucher4000, even if we did upload a few photos or something from RSMV, we're still getting it all from RuneScape. JaGex puts these files on our computers every time we ever load up the game. Abyssal whip detail.pngFerrelShadowDark bow.png 14:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Please take a look at the non-existent item policy, number 4. "Articles with images hacked from the official RuneScape website are not allowed. If you need to use an illegal program to find the item, do not write an article about it." Wouldn't using this program to uncover the images be classified as using illegal (third party) software to get the images? ~MuzTalk 14:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose till Jagex gives the green light Until we are sure we are allowed to do this, its not worth risking being in jagex's bad books...--Serenity1137 14:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It just occurred to me I know a lawyer who does alot of copyright based stuff, shall I ask him on this one? --Serenity1137 17:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Oh my god, now what is this with people calling it illegal? We discussed that it isn't illegal until Jagex says so ffs! I noticed King Runite1 called it illegal, just because you're a player mod doesn't mean you know Jagex's thoughts about this! You might know the Rules of RuneScape better, but you surely don't know the law, unless you're some kind of lawyer. If RSMV was illegal, every single video on YouTube containing footage from RSMV would be flagged by Jagex and taken down. I hate how people can just throw everything we just talked about away and randomly call it "illegal" with out Jagex saying so. We've discussed this. We need JAGEX'S SAY before we can call it illegal! Plain and simple! --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 17:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

If you want to build an extention on your house, but are not sure if you're allowed to, you apply for planning permission, then you wait. You don't go ahead just because it hasn't been rejected. This is the same, we are not sure if it violates copyright, so we asked jagex, they haven't confirmed or denied that we are allowed to do it so we wait till we know for sure. --Serenity1137 18:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
... Didn't I just say that? Nobody said we were going along with it. In fact I just said the same thing you did: we have to wait for an answer. ... -_- --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 18:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for closure - I believe that the community is against the idea of uploading leaked images until Jagex says something about it.

It will be appropriate if a new thread is created, if and when Jagex responds to the questions posted in the RuneScape Forums. I'm requesting that this thread is closed as this is not an imporant or urgent issue, and therefore there is no need for the thread to remain open indefinitely. Thanks.   az talk   20:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I count 7 supporters, too many to close this issue with. If and when Jagex decides to contact us and let us know we did something wrong, then we should listen. But until that time, denying any changes is ridiculous considering Jagex has yet to respond to two separate threads on their forums. And with their history of never revealing information, contacting anyone, and remaining as silent and secretive as they do, waiting for them to make the first move seems fruitless to me. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
If it isn't closed it's just going to keep going back and forth. This argument is really like respecting classified info because of the back and forth arguments. Andrew talk 00:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
The reason why consensus failed this wiki so long until the recent reform is because situations like this when two sides were openly arguing with each other about every detail. We need to come to some type of compromise and then go through the process again until both sides agree in some way or back down. Closing the discussion because someone wants their way is not going to solve anything and only create tension. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 01:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
It does not really matter - if it requires breaking T&C to obtain something, it’s not worth obtaining and has no place here. Using some 3rd party software off a cheating site to de-engineer the game, breaking Jagex’s rules and the Wiki’s policies? This is long overdue for closure. And weren’t you going to stop arguing on this already? Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 05:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Doucher, that post was completely biased, by you. That's taking the whole conversation and saying it in the complete "Oppose" favor. That's basically saying that this IS against T&C, this IS from a cheating site, and this IS breaking Jagex rules and Wiki policies. Jagex has yet to reply, so you can not say it is against T&C, no matter how much evidence you/the community provides. I found RSMV from a YouTube video, so tell me where this came from? Not a cheating site for me. Had Jagex told us this de-engineer's the game? No. Is this against Jagex rules? Idk, and you sure as hell don't because JAGEX HASN'T SAID SO. Not to be rude. Is this against Wiki policies? You tell me, sysops. And TEbuddy has the right to talk on here, even if he did feel like stopping. --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 06:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
When there is no consensus on the proposal, the current status quo prevails. In the event where no consensus is achieved, it becomes the responsibility of the dissenting editor(s) to modify the original proposal if they wish to. However, it is also possible for the proponents to come up with an alternative proposal which addresses the concerns raised by the dissenters.
RuneScape:Consensus

  az talk   05:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Az, I don't know what that means, but I can say this: We've all had our opinions and we've all provided great information, but we need Jagex's say. No matter how many supports or opposes we count, we need Jagex. Jagex has to say so first. I say we DON'T close the discussion, but rather wait for Jagex's say. It's not fair to totally close a discussion with many supports, and an unconfirmed answer. Agree anyone? --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 06:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
What Azliq means is that we will stick to the status quo (in this case, not revealing leaked info) if there is no consensus, which happens to be the case. C.ChiamTalk 06:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
It's no big deal if we close this thread. As I said earlier, if and when Jagex says something, we can open a new thread and discuss it. There are many supports, but there are also as many opposes. This is what we call "no consensus" or "lack of consensus". This means that we can't agree on the issue, and therefore, cannot proceed with the original proposal. In this case, we don't use the leaked images, since that was the original proposal. However, if there is an alternative proposal or a compromise, please submit them and we can discuss about that, preferably in another thread (since this one has become too long).   az talk   06:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Doucher, exactly as lil diriz put it, you just interpreted the entire issue as in favor of your own opinions and then used that for your support. Thats called circular reasoning. The point of my 'last' post was to summarize my points and include those which had yet to be answered in the slightest (where is the response to lil diriz comments about the d plate article and speculation for example?) All I kept hearing was "ITS ILLEGAL CAUSE, JUST CAUSE" from people who refused to read the wall of text where myself and usually AZ talked about every detail. As for the policy, maybe you want to read everything after the word 'prevails'. The dissenters (everyone with Oppose) need to take the first step and modify the proposal and then re-present until it is acceptable to everyone. How can you claim no consensus if you have not taken all of the available steps to achieve consensus? AZ, I honestly feel like your purposefully misinterpreting the policy, for god sakes its something you wrote yourself. If I had quoted the same policy from the beginning and said "this is closed because I will never agree with you" you would have shot me down in a second. We don't have a "leak" policy, and I don't even believe this should be classified as a leak because the files have been there for probably as long as Jagex has been caching them. I am not saying I am going to draw this out until everyone is forcefully converted to my view, but it just seems a tad selfish to close the thread and say there can be no consensus. But it should not (and is not according to the policy) be up to the people who want to go along with something to present it to the people who don't want it to pass. The final problem I have with this "wait and watch" policy is how everyone is nicely going to ignore how Jagex usually does not take the first step or respond to questions until it bothers them (think about this whole fansite thing). What do we have to lose by passing this? A cease and desist letter that will damage our nonexistant relationship with Jagex? Even then, thats assuming how Jagex will think and react to this new feature which has usually backfired on us in the past. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Why is it selfish? Am I the one closing this thread? I am merely requesting it to be closed. This decision of closing the thread, is not made by me, but by the community.
(Please try to be civil, Tebuddy. I have not directed any comments directly, but you have done this to me several times. Your comments seem to attack me personally. If you do not wish me to be part of this discussion, I will cease to be part of it. I only have the wiki's best interests. *sigh*)
The consensus policy was not created by me, but compiled from a bunch of Wikipedia pages. Why are we questioning that policy now? You forgot the text after that. "if they wish to." And it is "also possible for the proponents to come up with an alternative proposal".   az talk   08:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
You didn't post your quote of the policy with the intention of encouraging the proponents to modify the proposal, you posted it with the intention of closing the thread. Only after I call you on it do you say "yeah but what about this part and this part?" And of course I do not wish you to withdrawl from the discussion, but I continually fail to understand why you post your evidence for your support simply by assuming or completely ignoring certain information. I have not insulted you, flamed you, trolled you, baited you, I am merely pointing out what I think your doing to get your opinions validated by the community. Again, I did not call you selfish, I called the idea of closing the entire discussion based on the fact that we cannot achieve consensus selfish as we very clearly have not tried according to even the policy you wrote yourself. So maybe it was suggestive and deceptive, for that I apologize. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 08:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Support Closure, Don't get offended Tebuddy, but at the moment I see two things that make closure appropriate, firstly though you are not the only supporter of revealing the leaked info, you are the only person I have seen recently make an argument for doing so before jagex respond. Secondly, even if there are others, it is clear this argument is going nowhere, so the status quo previals. If you have a modified proposal it is entirely within your rights to restart the topic, but till that point, this topic should be closed. --Serenity1137 10:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

That is a blatant misrepresentation of our current policy. It relies upon the dissenters to take the first step and submit a modified proposal, then we start the process for approving it over. Until you (or someone else) has done that, we cannot close because we have not taken the steps to reach consensus. If you dont want to or cant think of anything, its an absolute insult and hypocrisy to just close the discussion.

From the policy:

  • Step 4. Identification and addressing of concerns: If consensus is not achieved, the dissenters present their concerns on the proposal, potentially starting another round of discussion to address or clarify the concern.
  • Step 5. Modification of the proposal: The proposal is amended, re-phrased or ridered in an attempt to address the concerns. The process then returns to the call for consensus and the cycle is repeated until a satisfactory decision is made.}

Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


Lol I just realised where we differ, we are both assuming that our side is the status quo and that the consensus policy leans towards us when no solution can be reached. But my first point still stands.--Serenity1137 07:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC) p.s. please stop saying things like insult and hypocrisy we don't want people to get angry or start flaming
I dont know about you, but I have been pretty intently checking the yew grove and posting responses (some that take a lot of time to write) for about a week now. It is nothing less than an insult to close the thread with no contest because of some technical garbage. We don't have a policy about the client/cache files. Since this discussion isn't about a new policy regarding those, and since there is no technical or logistical limitation, the burden falls on the dissenters (dissent meaning opposition/unrest) to draft a new policy if they dont agree with what is being presented. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
But what I'm saying is both of us are saying the other is the dissenter. --Serenity1137 16:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Right, but support = support, and oppose = opposition/dissent? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Modifying "Non-existent item policy"

Based on item #4 of our Non-existent item policy, we have:

Articles with images hacked from the official RuneScape website are not allowed. If you need to use an illegal program to find the item, do not write an article about it.

Since we don't have a policy for leaked images from the cache, I propose that we update this to:

Articles, with images hacked from the official RuneScape website, or obtained from the Jagex cache folder (.jagex_cache_32), are not allowed. If you need to use a third-party software to find the item, do not write an article about it.

This should keep us from speculating about which image is really from the cache and which is fake, legality issue aside.   az talk   21:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - This will clear it up. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - How exactly is this in any way reasonable for the people who have been supporting this? All you just did was put everything you wanted into the policy with no regard for any of the supporters. Does it make any sense to say "Ok lets compromise, we will do everything my way. "Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, please be civil and try not to refer to an individual. Who were you referring to when you said "my way"? Since we're talking about compromises, what are your suggestions for us to move ahead with this discussion?   az talk   21:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Not trying to be insulting, and my example was used to clarify my point. All I am saying is, completely ignoring the entire discussion above and posting what one side wants as the compromise is not going to solve anything. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - as it has been said many times above, the wiki will not approve of getting information by cheating. That's plain wrong, and is a violation of T&C. Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 21:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Your making your decision based on the presupposition that this is wrong and a violation of the T&C. We have not established this, and Jagex has not responded. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I could say the same thing about this NOT being a violation of the T&C.   az talk   22:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
The difference is I am not making my suggestions based on the what I assume is fact. I am making my suggestion based on my own person opinions and my honest attempt at intelligently interpreting their TOS. As I said earlier if Jagex were to come out and say they didn't approve of this, I would cease my support. But D4k is essentially assuming its wrong and based on that is never going to support it ever despite not having any real proof it is wrong besides his interpretation of the TOS. I am going to brainstorm about a few things we could change that would appeal to both parties, as of now I am drawing blanks. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - I've remained quite on this discussion but I strongly believe it is against the T&C.--Quest point hood.png Bigm2793Talk Quest point cape.png 23:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Support Okay, I'll use simple language here. The policy that was stated above seems to most wiki viewers as cheating/unlawful. As the Runescape Wiki of Wikia, we want no part in possibly cheating/unlawful content. In my view, there is no grey here, we either support or oppose. This "compromise" is like saying "Okay, we'll add some of the content" which completely destroys the counter argument. I think most people would like to say "Leave the Model Viewer alone, and keep it secret." It's like ruining an end to a movie: It suks, and no one likes the person who said it. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 02:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - Let's end this already! Andrew talk 02:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for Closure The people have spoken, and it looks as though its unanimous that this information should not be leaked. Per most above. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 02:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment - For this not being a democracy you guys sure like to treat it like one. I am just going to start voting and ignoring any criticism seeing as how it doesn't matter what I say in response to anyone. Whats the point in not voting if people can say "support" and then say "Im tired of reading it all" as their support. Absolutely ridiculous. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 03:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Rebuttle The difference is that the Wiki bows to the majority, not one person or a small group whose views are corrupt/bad in the Wiki users eyes. All of the counters have been laid, and still a great number of Wikians want nothing to do with this. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 03:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
1. Its rebuttal. 2. You have your definitions twisted. Democracy = favoring a majority, consensus = group agreement. 3. You might want to also read the policy we have on consensus. 4. Who are you to judge my opinions good or bad? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 03:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Support - Until items are released in the game or if it were through hints/articles about up and coming releases through the main RS website, I don't believe it should be posted. Even the pics for these items I think should come from these articles and not the cache files located on our computers. Vadanea 04:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


support -TEBuddy, you are the ONLY remaining supporter of the images being used. There is a definite rough consensus, (it requires 70% and I count 7-1 or 88%). You should read the new consensus policy yourself before you go accusing others of not having read it. --Serenity1137 07:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Closed - For the most part, everything opposes the revealing of leaked info. The discussion has gone on long enough, so for now, leaked information will not be revealed.  Tien  19:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)