Forum:Revamping IRC

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This thread was archived on 17 October 2009 by Calebchiam.

Recently, a forum topic was created to revive IRC. I wasn't active in that particular thread, but I have been hard at work planning out the next phase of IRC.

First off, I would like to point out from the beginning that this huge conflict over Freenode vs. RuneScape-Wiki IRC will not help revive IRC. The Freenode IRC channel was recently added back tot he top of the IRC chat menu in the sidebar. If we continue to split the IRC community like this, we will effectively smother IRC. I shouldn't need to propose this again—Christine specifically went against the previous proposal outcome by moving it back to the top of the list—but I am proposing that the Freenode channel link be completely removed from the menu. We have had no problems with the new IRC network, and there is no reason to split the community. The Java IRC client works great, and I am developing a WPF client in addition.

Currently, the RS Wiki's dedicated IRC network runs UnrealIRCd 3.2.7, the most popular IRCd. I have been preparing a new server based on InspIRCd, a newer, more powerful IRCd. The transition should be smooth, though all IRCops will need to confirm their passwords with me, as it uses a different hash algorithm (Christine especially, since she's still in charge of it, last I checked).

I have been working on a new IRC client with a few friends that will integrate with SwiftIRC, and will likely pull guides and other data from the RuneScape Wiki, much like SwiftKit. The difference is that it's a newer, more powerful program with a cleaner interface. (There's also a web version with all the same features for those of us who are worried about viruses.) I am not entirely in charge of the project, so I can't make any promises, but I'd like to integrate it with the RuneScape Wiki IRC network. The program cannot and will not integrate with Freenode for various legal reasons; it would likely lead to the same legal battle that Swift fought with Jagex, as RuneScape rules can't be enforced on a network that we or a similar organization have little control over. (For example, there's no way for us to prevent account sharing/trading via PM, whereas we can add a spamfilter for such things on our own network.) I would really like the program to support access to the RuneScape Wiki's IRC network, as it would bring many more players into our community. I've put many hours of work into that network, so to see its community growing would be quite rewarding.

Any thoughts? As I said, none of this is really official yet, but a lot of things are sort of lining up and the client is nearly done, so it'd be great to get things going again.

Thanks,
Supertech1 TCE 17:15, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

First of all, Freenode has been working fine for many years, so I don't understand why we had to have a new network. I actually say just stick with Freenode, as it seems to be more accepted by the community anyway. Every time I go into Freenode, it has more people than when I go into the other network. For example, right now, Freenode has 6 people in it, but the other network has 4. Also, one critical advantage Freenode has is that RuneScript can be invited into it, and I'm not sure that's the same with the other network. I say just stick with Freenode, like we've been doing for a long time. Butterman62 (talk) 19:16, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
X is a bot, so it's only 3 people. Also you're right, no RuneScript on the other network. Christine 21:47, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
That's not true. RuneScript was on the official network. Nobody used it, so it quit and never came back. If someone will actually use it, feel free to ask for it back.
As for using Freenode, it has zero advantages over the official network. We've already established that in past proposals. This proposal is not about switching back. Again, Christine, please revert the menu back to the way it was; you are going against the community consensus. Supertech1 TCE 07:15, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
Supertech, the fact is, however, that our contributors use Freenode and barely use your network at all. Why should we keep yours? It's just a hassle. Butterman62 (talk) 19:44, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
The only reason that Freenode is currently preferred over the dedicated network is that it's what's always been used. For some reason, the particular group of people that frequent that channel have a hard time with change. But that channel is, like I said, used only by a select few people. Personally, I am interested in making IRC usable by the entire community. That is, as a viable alternative to the clan chat, which is difficult to moderate and requires players be in-game. From a programming perspective, Freenode is geared more towards efficiency than usability, and CGI:IRC/pjIRC are just... well... neither usable nor efficient. Supertech1 TCE 21:22, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
How exactly is Freenode not "usable by the entire community", or not a viable alternative as well? Besides, most of the "moderators" are on Freenode anyway, so being on your network doesn't really help. Also, how exactly is freenode less usable than your network? The CGI and pjIRC issues are client-side problems and have nothing to do with Freenode itself (many of us don't even use those clients). Butterman62 (talk) 21:53, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
I am not attacking Freenode. It is simply a matter of good and better. And it's not my network--I contributed it to the wiki a while back, and it was accepted. It's hosted on my server; that doesn't make it mine.
CGI:IRC requires server-side support to function properly. Freenode only has partial support, resulting in various technical difficulties, such as problems banning/muting/etc. It's also hosted on a separate server, meaning double the hops per message. (CGI:IRC for the new network is located on the same server, so it only adds one extra hop--less than 1ms.) pjIRC is being replaced for the new network, but for reasons I already stated, the client cannot and will not connect to Freenode; that is not my decision, and the matter is beyond my control.
We have already switched to the new network; we did that something like a year ago. The attempted switch back to Freenode was made without a proposal or community consensus. This proposal effectively ignores the unapproved changes and continues on with development. If you are interested in explaining why Freenode is better and why such advantages warrant the switch back, this is not the place for that. I represent the community when I say that we have already chosen to use the new network. That has already been established by overwhelming community agreement. By making unapproved changes in an attempt to revert community-backed proposals, sysops are effectively abusing their ability to moderate community development. Yes, I am calling the changes made to the menu abusive. I would have no objection if the decision was made by the community, but it was not; it was made by a single sysop with her own agenda that differed greatly from the community's. As such, I continue to consider the new network the RS Wiki's official IRC location, rather than what it has forcibly been changed to. This proposal is made under the assumption that the community will not support unapproved changes and the modifications will eventually be reverted back. Supertech1 TCE 01:51, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
Here's the problem though. You say "we have already switched/chosen to use the new network". In theory, we have. In practice, however, that's far from the truth. The community has generally decided to use Freenode. There, chat happens at least somewhat often, considering the number of people, and we have a good time. Therswiki is barren; except for a few people and a bot, there's not much, and no one talks. That's the key. It's not the work of "one abusive sysop"; IRC users in general have chosen Freenode, for the most part. Since people want to go where there's other people, they all go to Freenode. Sure, in writing, we have our own network, but our de facto network is Freenode. Butterman62 (talk) 02:29, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
I agree. In practice, our channel is on Freenode. That pretty much undermines all reasons for having a dedicated network. As I've said, if we remove the old link from the menu--rather than moving it to the top, like what has happened--we'll all be in one place. There's room for expansion when we have our own network; there isn't when we have a single channel. There's really no reason to go back, other than the fact that all the people are there--and that's quite easy to fix. Supertech1 TCE 02:36, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
If everyone chooses Freenode, then that is the server we should use. That's called "community consensus." Also, what the hell is this about "fixing" the fact that people prefer one channel over the other? You're here solely because of a personal agenda, and while the community clearly prefers freenode, you refuse to accept that fact. We're not going to simply remove the link just because you don't like freenode. Christine 16:39, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
Supertech, somewhere near the top you said that Christine was going against community consensus. First, there's nothing wrong with doing that, and second, it's you who's going against the consensus, not her. I also prefer Freenode and want it to be kept at the top of the IRC chat bar, and if you check the forum page about shutting IRC down, you might notice that most people want Freenode to stay and the other chat to go. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  04:57, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
He isn't going against community consensus. We switched IRC channels at the beginning of the year after this discussion. Andrew talk 05:10, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
"there's nothing wrong with [going against the community consensus]" - On the contrary, admins are forbidden from doing that. They just keep order; it's the community that is in control. Otherwise, they are subject to removal from their positions, either by the help of other sysops and the guidance of the community or by Wikia staff. Supertech1 TCE 00:34, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
My apologies, Supertech. When I wrote the comment I thought you meant she was speaking against the community consensus, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, going against the consensus is wrong. My point still stands, however, that she was going with the community consensus, not against it. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  05:22, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Comment Christine implemented the change from this discussion. Per community consensus. It is pretty clear if you read the entire discussion.--Degenret01 13:07, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect. That discussion was declined, not accepted. It is invalid and therefore irrelevant. Supertech1 TCE 00:34, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

Let's get this sorted.

OK, it's pretty simple. Support 1 if you want Freenode to be the only/main IRC network. Support 2 if you want the Therswiki network to be the main/only network. Support 3 if you want them both.

Support 1 - Supertech's network was never needed in the first place. Most other wikis use Freenode and it has served us well. I don't understand why we originally swapped networks, it only caused confusion. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  05:49, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Support 2 - The Freenode channel was never active. It still isn't. The new network has the potential to bring in quite a few more users. It's also more in line with the "wiki mentality," as it is controlled by the community. The Freenode channel is controlled fully by Christine. If, for some reason, Christine were to be banned or something from the wiki (not that that would happen), neither Wikia staff nor our community could "take back" the channel. Supertech1 TCE 17:21, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

If Christine went inactive in the channel, then Freenode could likely reassign the channel to someone who was active. - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 22:32, October 9, 2009 (UTC)
On IRC I was just told: "<ubrfzy> TehKittyCat, if the founder is gone for a long time, wikia can ask freenode to give us the channel, and we'll assign it to the people who want it". - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 23:04, October 9, 2009 (UTC)
No, IRC does not work that way, with the exception of Gamesurge. I don't believe nicknames/channels expire on Freenod, either, so there would be no way for us to recover it. Supertech1 TCE 18:43, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
Of course it works that way. And seriously? Let me rebut. 1) I would never become so inactive as to let my IRC nick hit the 6 weeks without use. 2) When a nickname IS dropped, all flags and permissions are dropped with it, meaning I would not still have this sort of "ghost control" over the channel, so of course it can be recovered. 3) It's Freenode's server! They can do whatever the hell they want with it, so YES, the channel's power could be turned over if I went inactive. Christine 00:44, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Support 2 - Per supertechCap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 20:45, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 How is Christine being in charge of the Freenode really any different than you needing all of us to send you our passwords for the Therswiki? Bad argument IMO.--Degenret01 21:54, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 - Per Degen. Christine is trustworthy and responsible. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 21:55, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 - Per Chaos Monk, "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" and "Let it be, Let it be". The current(Freenode) channel is fine, if we changed networks all that would come out of it is more confusion and we do not NEED it to change it for no good reason. If we did Option 3 as a compromise, IRC would die guaranteed. I know the current channel is *offically* therswiki, but in practice it is Freenode. - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 22:32, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 - I have been in therswiki Channel and like the idea of our own server, etc. But I have always used Freenode and was really confused when there were 8 links in the IRC menu! And with Freenode, I can log in to other Wiki Channels, like I usually do Smile Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 01:35, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 - It's counter-productive to have more than one network and it's more convenient when the network is also used by other Wikia communities and the official Wikia channel. Plus, I think it would be advantageous if we use a large network where network operators tend to be more readily available to deal with serious issues such as spambots and the like. --Quarenon  Talk 02:22, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 - Don't see a problem here. It works. Why do anything to jeopardise that? Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 02:52, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Support 1 - There's no need to wait another year for these so-called benefits of the other server to appear. Freenode is simpler and allows us greater access to more users than a dedicated server. Christine 00:44, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion

Freenode seems to have the support this time around. As soon as the menu is updated accordingly, I'll switch irc.therswiki.net to CNAME to irc.freenode.net. Supertech1 TCE 03:19, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, I think you need to wait until the activity dies down before you conclude anything. Since the last edit before you posted was less than 1 hour, I would suggest than you waited at least until no one has posted in a while.   az talk   05:47, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
This has been open for only 8 days, and the subsection only one. This still has activity. Per Az. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 15:31, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, and in that short time, the community seems to have voted for Freenode near-unanimously. There doesn't seem to be much reason to leave it open. Supertech1 TCE 18:41, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
You never know if someone with a differing opinion has found the thread. Just give it time. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 19:59, October 10, 2009 (UTC)
It's been given about two weeks now, and, as Supertech said, there is near-unanimous support for Freenode. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  00:30, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Closed - Freenode will be the main/only IRC network. C.ChiamTalk 07:26, October 17, 2009 (UTC)