Forum:Restructure RSW Clan Chat's ranks

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Forums: Yew Grove > Restructure RSW Clan Chat's ranks

Hi everyone,

A few months back Oldschool RuneScape introduced Clan Chats similar to RS3's. The OSRS Wiki community created their own clan in a similar nature to ours. Being a part of the clan and seeing the diverse range of ranks in the CC, I was hoping we could bring something similar here.

Note: I only focus on ranks below Overseer. Overseer, deputy owner, and owner would stay as it is.

Currently[edit source]

From RS:CC, these are the current ranks:

Rank Abilities Obtained by
Guest Can talk in the clan chat Joining the clan chat
Recruit clan rank.pngRecruit Can collect resources/skill in the clan citadel
Can use the resource checker
Accept an invitation to join RSW
Corporal clan rank.pngCorporal Can invite other players to join the clan Given out to active/trusted clan mates by higher ranked clan members. Clan members who wish to have the ability to invite other players to the clan may ask any admin+ to be given the corporal rank.
Sergeant clan rank.pngSergeant Kick players who are guests in the clan chat Was given to players who held the lieutenant rank before requests for lieutenant were closed.
Lieutenant clan rank.pngLieutenant Same as Sergeants No longer in use
Captain clan rank.pngCaptain Can create events on clan noticeboard
Can edit the clan battlefield
Players who are current members of the Events Team, following a request for Events Team membership
General clan rank.pngGeneral Same as Captains No longer in use; was given to players who were forum admins before the removal of the wiki forum.
Admin clan rank.pngAdministrator Can kick guests and clan members
Can edit ranks of clan members below them
Can prevent clan members with lower ranks from entering the clan citadel
Clan members who have requested the rank and administrators of the wiki.
Organiser clan rank.pngOrganiser Greater ability to edit the citadel, e.g., marking building and skill plots for upgrade or downgrade, locking skill plots, setting objectives for resource gathering May be requested when necessary
Coordinator clan rank.pngCoordinator Same as Administrators Not in use

Greyed-out ranks can't be obtained conventionally. There are still a list of users that are eligible to receive these ranks due to legacy reasons (see here).

OSRS system[edit source]

From osrsw:RS:CC:

Rank Permissions Obtained by
Guest Can talk and enter the Clan Hall Joining the clan chat
Sapphire Deposit coins into the Clan Coffer Accept an invitation to join OSRS Wiki
Emerald Invite players into the clan Given out to players who link their wiki account
Ruby Same as Emerald Given out to players with 10 non-userspace edits
Diamond Same as Emerald Given out to players with 100 non-userspace edits
Dragonstone Same as Emerald Given out to players with 500 non-userspace edits
Onyx Same as Emerald Given out to players with 1,000 non-userspace edits
Sheriff Kick guests from the clan chat Given out to players who pass a request for rank
Gnome Child Reserved for a future Events Team
Administrator
  • Assign ranks to lower-ranked clan members
  • Ban guests from the clan chat
  • Expel lower-ranked clan members from the clan
  • Toggle Clan Hall settings (not within Permissions interface)
Administrators of the wiki
Merchant
  • Withdraw coins from the Clan Coffer
Administrators of the wiki

Proposal[edit source]

My proposal is to restructure our permissions to similarly copy OSRS's intentions and allow users to link their RuneScape account to their wiki account. OSRS Wiki does this by making you put a userbox on your userpage. See here.

If this proposal were to pass, people with existing ranks below admin (excluding ET) would have their ranks set to Recruit, including those with legacy ranks. Bold text are changes:

Rank Abilities Obtained by
Guest Can talk in the clan chat Joining the clan chat
Recruit clan rank.png Recruit Can collect resources/skill in the clan citadel
Can use the resource checker
Accept an invitation to join RSW
Corporal clan rank.pngCorporal Can invite other players to join the clan Linked wiki account
Sergeant clan rank.pngSergeant Same as corporal 10 non-userspace edits
Lieutenant clan rank.pngLieutenant Same as corporal 100 non-userspace edits
Captain clan rank.pngCaptain Same as corporal 500 non-userspace edits
General clan rank.pngGeneral Same as corporal 1000 non-userspace edits
Admin clan rank.pngAdministrator Not given out Not given out
Organiser clan rank.pngOrganiser Can create events on clan noticeboard
Can edit the clan battlefield
Can kick guests and clan members
Can edit ranks of clan members below them
ET members (this would be equivalent to old Captain)
Coordinator clan rank.pngCoordinator Same as Organiser
Can prevent clan members with lower ranks from entering the clan citadel (why does this even exist?)
Greater ability to edit the citadel, e.g., marking building and skill plots for upgrade or downgrade, locking skill plots, setting objectives for resource gathering
RS:CC admins (this would be equivalent to old Administrator + old Organiser)

I didn't want to give ET the "Administrator" role to prevent confusion with the name, hence why that role will now become unused.

Why[edit source]

  • Gets more people linking their accounts with a Wiki account. We've been doing the same initiative in Discord + OSRS CC
  • Allows people to obtain ranks that were previously impossible to obtain - IMO this is a huge thing. People like pretty ranks.
  • Ranks are currently all over the place. We have many unused slots that are being wasted on people who are eligible for them because of legacy reasons.
  • Potential downside: It would be harder for people to recruit others because they have to have a wiki account linked. However, I am not against allowing Recruits the permission to recruit (lol).

Discussion[edit source]

Support - HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 08:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - I'm a bit split on giving 🍌 the ability to invite - it's probably good for clan numbers but currently invites are behind some level of trust (🍌🍌) which would help keeping some of the "spam" out. I think for now we should still keep invites behind 🍌🍌 (if only for the extra step of attaching a wiki account, which I understand isn't a very high bar, but still), and we can always evaluate whether that's fine or needs a change later on. (Plus we still seem to have to do regular kick lists in the current system, so I don't think it's really that much of a problem in the first place.) User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 09:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

On the OS side we just let anyone with a rank invite people currently and so far haven't had an issue. However, that is also because there is little merit in a clan itself on the OS side since we don't have citadels or anything. I think letting a certain level of user outside of the higher ranks kick people would be fine since the role would need some level of edit criteria as proposed (which we would know about from the user anyways from looking at their contributions). Jakesterwars (talk) 13:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
Also for clarity, oppose proposal 2 - fetus, i love you, but what the fuck User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 19:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - I like the current OS system for edits so I have no issue with it on the RS3 side too. Jakesterwars (talk) 13:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - I think this is a good overhaul to the system and could encourage a lot of the players who solely interact with the clan in-game to interact with the wiki a little more. As for the one banana invite thing, 99% of invites to the clan are usually done on request by those guesting and then asking to join, and there are usually more than enough people who are willing to accommodate these requests. I think it's probably safe to say that a large amount of (what will be) Corporal+ will be more familiar with the usual process for recruitment (asking if they've read the rules) and (hopefully) familiar with the wiki policies that carry over to the CC, as compared to a scenario where a one banana recruits their friend/colleague/lover right away to join to the clan without letting them know what is what. As Psi said, the linking of a wiki account isn't that much of a high bar but it does increase their wiki presence and the CC admins ability to not only communicate with them in-game, but also correspond with them on their talk pages on the wiki should a situation need it. This seems more appealing than trying to get through to a one banana tabbed out of the clan with their private chat turned off. They're hypothetical scenarios, but you know :) Ruud10KRalph.png 13:39, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - This would be a fun change. For the longest time, our CC list has pretty much been just 1 banana, 2 banana, admin. It looks clean but I think people would appreciate being able to rank up, even if it's just cosmetic. The most fun and individuality people can currently have are just going up to 2 bananas (which I do occasionally when I see someone's been in the clan for 1 year+) and Clan jobs which are pretty much just used for the memes. And it puts a smile on people's faces :'-) Plus it wouldn't be hard to give any future rank ups when people pass the edit threshold for it. Re: 1 bananas being able to recruit, tbh I don't think it matters either way. I don't think that once they're given the ability to invite people, we'll be suddenly at 500 members again  Panjy16  20:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - this can get clannies inspired to edit a bit more. Fatcat (talk) 22:40, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - Cool idea, people like shiny badges. Superiosity the WikianQuick chat button.png : Hey mate 22:42, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - The proposed rank shake-up would be consistent with Old School's clan ranks and also I would get Coordinator if this goes through, so suck it Kevin, I can finally get coordinator after all these years. -- Recent uploads SpineTalkGuest book 02:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - variety is the spice of life after all! 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 20:12, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment - what is meant by linking accounts? Also, for clarity and/or because I have a poor grasp on wiki terminology, is ::User talk considered userspace? Wte81 (talk) 02:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

edited to remove one question because I missed a paragraph above. Wte81 (talk) 02:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
User talk: and User: are considered userspace yea. All you'd have to do to link accounts is to paste something on User:Wte81. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 02:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment - I do believe alongside the editing number requirement that potentially the cosmetic ranks could be based on trust within the clan as well, the update makes sense. Whoopy (talk)

How would a trust system work in your mind? I don't object to a parallel system in theory, but I'm not sure how to objectively apply a trust-based approach. cqm talk 15:23, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
To me, that would be completely up to the Admin+ team of the CC and their opinions of people. It would also be purely cosmetic, but for those that are more involved in the clan itself rather than the wiki. Whoopy (talk)

Support - I think this would be a good change. It ties the clan back to the wiki by introducing edit count requirements. I do not think that we should also open this up to ranks based on trust as this devalues the edit count requirement and cuts the tie to the wiki - after all it is the wiki clan. As for recruitment, I believe we should keep the permission to two bananas as this would encourage people to link their accounts and gives some element of trust by having a higher rank. Lava hawk.png BlackHawk (Talk)    13:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Proposal - I like the idea of using more of the available ranks. As Superiosity said above, people like shiny badges.

With that said, I'm not a huge fan of tying the ranks to a Wiki edit count. Not every clannie is an active editor, and some might not be interested. Yet I would not consider any of them as a lesser part of the community, especially in terms of clan involvement. We even have clan admins that do not meet the posted requirements for General if I'm not mistaken. I understand that this community itself has formed around the Wiki, of course, but I don't necessarily think we have to limit ourselves to it for this context.

Instead, I believe it would make more sense to tie it to the clan itself in some way. One metric I would suggest is using time elapsed since having joined the clan in the game. I admit this isn't a perfect way of measuring clan involvement as you can just join and never participate, but at least it directly has to do with the clan and I ultimately don't see any issues with such folks getting ranks, given the ranks don't do anything. bad_fetustalk 23:49, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I made a rough sketch of how this could look below. bad_fetustalk 23:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Rank Abilities Obtained by
Guest Can talk in the clan chat Joining the clan chat
Recruit clan rank.png Recruit Can collect resources/skill in the clan citadel
Can use the resource checker
Accept an invitation to join RSW
Corporal clan rank.pngCorporal Can invite other players to join the clan 1 month in clan
Sergeant clan rank.pngSergeant Same as corporal 3 months in clan
Lieutenant clan rank.pngLieutenant Same as corporal 1 year in clan
Captain clan rank.pngCaptain Same as corporal 3 years in clan
General clan rank.pngGeneral Same as corporal 5 years in clan
Admin clan rank.pngAdministrator Not given out Not given out
Organiser clan rank.pngOrganiser Can create events on clan noticeboard
Can edit the clan battlefield
Can kick guests and clan members
Can edit ranks of clan members below them
ET members (this would be equivalent to old Captain)
Coordinator clan rank.pngCoordinator Same as Organiser
Can prevent clan members with lower ranks from entering the clan citadel (why does this even exist?)
Greater ability to edit the citadel, e.g., marking building and skill plots for upgrade or downgrade, locking skill plots, setting objectives for resource gathering
RS:CC admins (this would be equivalent to old Administrator + old Organiser)

As a compromise, we could also combine the two systems to have both of the requirements for each rank, and award the ranks if either condition is met. This would allow us to recognise contributions made directly to the wiki, while also recognising time spent in the clan. bad_fetustalk 23:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

One caveat I would add to time-based proposals is that we track who has what rank somewhere on the wiki, and track how long someone has been in the clan if they're kicked. If they rejoin, then their time should be applied cumulatively, not as if they started fresh. Otherwise support using this as a parallel ranking system. cqm talk 06:21, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Neutral/Slight Support on Proposal 2 - I wouldn't mind having time in the clan being an optional criteria for ranks. But that's just in the interest of letting more people be eligible for them. The original proposal's intent seems to be prioritizing getting more clannies to edit the wiki, at least providing an incentive. I know most of the active clannies don't edit much or know how, and making ranks based only on edit count would rub some of them the wrong way. If you guys want to stick to the original plan of trying to motivate people to edit, I think that's fine. I also think that adding a time-based requirement wouldn't really hurt, nor devalue the ranks that are cosmetic in the first place. Making the time requirements a bit longer might be striking a good balance: 1-5 years in whole year increments. Fair?  Panjy16  01:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment - I don't like the idea of ranking people up based on just having stuck around long enough, which is not something that requires effort or tells us anything about you. Even though the ranks are cosmetic, it gives an air of authority to people who are possibly just randos who've managed to avoid being kicked for a long time. ʞooɔ 06:27, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about air of legitimacy from th ranks. Right now, we have lots of people with 1-2 bananas so any real rank sticks out like a sore thumb. Either proposal, especially proposal 2 would result in a lot more ranks being given out, and I don't see ranks being associated with an air of legitimacy after that. bad_fetustalk 12:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose giving ranks based on tenure or trustworthy-ness - The whole point of this proposal was to create an objective way to hand out ranks we don't currently give out, while making it a bit more wiki-oriented. I don't really care if someone has a gold star that is 'not so trusted' over someone who is 1 banana and has been in the clan for years. Once we bring in a level of trust, people start complaining they deserve a higher rank. Also, giving someone a rank based on how long they've been in the clan is quite bland and off-putting for new users to see that they can do nothing but wait to rank up. Would people be encouraged to stay in the clan for 5 years just so they can get a shiny rank? Probably not... HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 08:15, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Would you be okay with the compromise of having both of them be a requirement, and getting the rank if you meet either one then? Anyone that can't wait to rank up can just edit the wiki, while we'd still recognise we value community members even if they don't edit the wiki. bad_fetustalk 12:34, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm failing to see why we need to recognise long standing members of the clan by giving them a cosmetic rank. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 14:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose Proposal 2 - I stand with Haidro on this, I think that adding ranks based on time loses out the wiki editing orientated factor behind the restructure. I was also curious about how many ranks would be given out if we were to restructure around time spent in the clan, so I did a very rudimentary estimation of how many people would achieve a certain rank. It's not a perfect process, as I just hovered over everyone's names (excluding everyone Admin+) and assembled a list based on what rank they would have based on the year they joined. I didn't calculate it to the month, so a decent amount of people can be considered as bridging a rank - but anyway:

  • There will be:
    • 15 Corporals (I mostly checked the recent joins on RuneClan as well as ones that jumped out on the list, some probably got merged into Sergeants)
    • 30 Sergeants
    • 85 Lieutenants
    • 61 Captains
    • 176 Generals

I'm pretty sure I may have missed a decent amount of people, but I'm pretty confident on the amount of clannies who will hold the General rank. Maybe we could ask Gaz for a more detailed list if possible. This also does not take into account the clannies who have been long-term users of the wiki, but didn't play the game leading to their inactivity and re-joining of the clan chat, skewing the amount of time they have actually been present in the clan community. My point is, this is a significantly higher amount of ranks then what we would have if we were going by edit count. It wouldn't matter if we combined the proposals because the effort and purpose behind the original proposal would be defeated, we would end up in a similar reflection to what we have now, only everything is unbalanced. I also think that there can be a statement to be made about the legitimacy of a rank, that while cosmetic, an editcount based rank does serve as some recognition. I suppose this ties into what the clan is supposed to be in relation to the wiki, but I've always seen it as a clan for the wiki, rather than a clan by the wiki, everyone is welcome but the wiki representation must be clear. Under the current system of the merged proposal, an editor who goes out of their way to edit the wiki frequently, attaining the General rank through editcount, would have the same amount of recognition as one of the +5 year inactive recruits who have managed to avoid the kicklist (I'm not privy to users play time, it's just a hypothetical scenario). This just doesn't sit well with me. Ruud10KRalph.png 14:38, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The numbers I wrote down were meant to demonstrate how such a system could work, rather than be final numbers. They can easily be tweaked to bring the numbers to more acceptable levels.
I guess we'll agree to disagree on the more important point; I honestly don't see the value of recognising edit count of all things in the clan. But I see that I might be alone in that. bad_fetustalk 15:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Support Proposal 1, Oppose Proposal 2 - I think it's a good cosmetic way to encourage engagement with editing that does not have an impact on how individuals have permissions in the clan. 176 Generals seems way too high and sort've defeats the purpose of Proposal 1. Smithing.pngAescopalus talkCrafting.png 15:55, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Support Proposal 1, Oppose Proposal 2 - Edit count ranks has been a nice way to recognize wiki participation in the osrs clan. While tying it alternatively to time spent in the clan is a nice idea, the fact that nearly a third of the clan's population has 5+ years makes it difficult to use as a metric. -- F-Lambda (talk) 23:45, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Support Proposal 1, Oppose Proposal 2 - As a Wiki Clan, it makes sense to tie rank back to the "source". Getting more people active in editing the wiki should be a net positive and this seems like a great way to help do it. DeadChex (talk) 23:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

General support - First, some minor nitpicking on the details. I don't really like the idea of expanding citadel editing permissions since this is definitely one of those "too many cooks in the kitchen" problems. Also, the citadel hasn't needed to be edited in many many years by anyone, and ever since upkeep costs were reduced there's no need to lock skill plots either. Right now it's only Gareth, Cam, and me who can edit the citadel and in practice we leave it to Gareth to avoid the too many cooks problem. Skipping over the admin rank to use organizer and coordinator doesn't matter too much either way though personally I think that'd cause almost everyone to have a yellow colored rank (either coordinator or some number of bananas). From an implementation standpoint I would strongly oppose the implementation of a mandatory userbox since people have different ideas of what they want their userpages to look like. Some like User:Cuxrie deliberately want an empty page and I don't want the CC to impede that. I'd stop at a mandatory category.

Regarding the meat of the proposal, I think it's something that's worth trying. If the goal is to encourage some cross-pollination between the CC and the wiki, I have some doubts about how successful it'd be in the end, but it would be very reasonable to do something different after many many many years of the current rank system. Over the years the CC has morphed more into a social clan for people who know of the wiki (or who are there asking for help) and I don't really think that's going to change much regardless of what we do with ranks (I definitely would argue that the average clannie currently would see the clan as by the wiki and not for the wiki). The clan has never been about ranks and I doubt that's going to change (though I could be wrong). From a practical perspective it'd still be mostly people with 1-2 bananas, just by looking at the clannies who are on right now and looking at their edit counts. But there's little harm in trying this and seeing if it spurs a change. As long as this doesn't turn into Forum:Achievements extension discussion (and I doubt it will) then there's literally no harm in giving this a try. --LiquidTalk 01:06, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You just want to keep the clan avatars looking ugly like you. They don't need limbs  Panjy16  01:40, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I am ok moving the citadel editing permissions to overseer only (it used to be available to organiser+, and only Ryan had organiser). A userbox won't hurt anyone. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 02:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)