Forum:Request to Derank Degenret in the CC

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Forums: Yew Grove > Request to Derank Degenret in the CC
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This thread was archived on 25 April 2010 by Calebchiam.

Alright, not to sound whiny, but this likely stems from Degenret's (Ghostly Degen in the CC) hatred of Jagex.

Image should tell you enough, but I'll explain below it. Read the PM's in AND above the chatbox.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8448/wtfdegen.png

(D.O.D is a misspelling of "did")

Alright, so legaking dodges the censor to say "gay". I have no problem with him stating it, but it's still against the rules, so I reported it. I randomly ask Degenret if Jagex can see things said in the CC when you report someone for rule breaking, and he said I "really really really suck", and he ACTUALLY kicked me.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7132/wtfdegen2.png

Then he proceeded to tell me to "read the fricking rules" and turned his private off/logged out just to not talk it out with me. WikEd_fullscreen.png This is ridiculous! From what I understand, Degen is anti-Jagex because we're a silver rank on their fansite list now, but this is utterly stupid, to take his rage out on me. It's like he's also "anti-following-Jagex's-rules-just-because-you-don't-like-them", if you ask me.

Thus, I leave the decision over what to do in the community's hands...but I'd like him deranked, to be honest. This anti-Jagex hype is so stupid, believe me. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 15:06, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


Discussion

First of all, oppose Degen's de-ranking. Second, please show us the entire conversation; you cut it off right in the middle. Degen is one of the most mature and trust-worthy users on the wiki, and I see no reason to remove his CC rank. Ajraddatz Talk 15:10, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I do agree, however, that the kick was unwarranted. A warning for this, but I would not say removal of CC rank. Ajraddatz Talk 15:41, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Censor evasion is not against the rules Context is everything.
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7878/modmarkcensor.png
By reporting for non offensive crap you contribute to an air of mistrust, and the cc is a place where we should be able to speak freely without that fear as long as we are not offending anyone. If someone asks you to stop what your saying, you do. Other than that, we need a place to be okay with each other.--Degenret01 15:14, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

But is that a reason to kick somebody? Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 15:16, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
Creating an atmosphere of fear and mistrust? It sure as hell is. And if the community disagrees, fine, take my rank. I should only be ranked in a community that believes in intelligent conversation, getting along, and respecting differences. And sometimes having a good time. And Stink, please do not guess at why I do not like Jagex. Your reasons have zero truth and should be crossed out since they only suppositions based on no real data. --Degenret01 15:23, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
Let Jagex decide if it's a bannable offence or not. You shouldn't have kicked him. bad_fetustalk 15:19, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Judging by the screenshot, kicking someone "for sucking" seems to be a rather unjustified reason. However, by reading Degen's comment above, I understand why he did it. Lega didn't seem to use the word "gay" in an offensive context... but I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know the details.  Tien  15:19, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Dammit, TWO edit conflicts. The fact remains, Degen, is that "gay" is a censored word to begin with, and thus cannot be said in ANY context. They have it blocked for a reason. And Tien, honestly, he wasn't using it inappropriately, but it's still a censored word. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 15:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
<edit conflict> Yeah, I was just about to comment on that. MMG's comment seems to apply to words that are not censored.  Tien  15:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Weak Support - That's the stupidest reason I ever heard for a kick. bad_fetustalk 15:24, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - For people who weren't in the clan chat at the time, here is a summary since Stinko didn't really provide one. Instead he decided to feign ignorance and blame this on Degen being "anti-Jagex".
Someone in the clan chat mentioned their boyfriend. Degen asked if they were a girl. They said that they weren't, and were "[email protected]". Stinko told Degen that he reported the person for evading the censor. Degen got upset that Stinko reported someone for politely answering his question and kicked Stinko.
So Stinko is technically in the right here, though he's morally reprehensible. Degen should recieve a warning for an unwaranted kick, but deranking him would be ridiculous. --Wowbagger421 15:24, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
I understand that I was upset and jumped to conclusions, wow. But it CERTAINLY SEEMS that he'd be more likely to kick for doing something that "sucks up" to Jagex when he doesn't trust them. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 15:51, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
They aren't meant to say that in the cc. If they wanted to say it that badly, they could've pm'd Degen. bad_fetustalk 15:29, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - As much as I disagree with Degen, and don't like some of the things he says, or some of the opinions he has. I have a lot of respect for him, and he deserves the rank he has. HaloTalk 15:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Tend to Oppose - Degen is a good user and admin, even if he is one of the more controversial. I don't think he should be deranked for this one instance, though I don't want to see it happen again. Kicking somebody for reporting another user is simply ridiculous (though if the user makes a big deal of it and causes chaos, that's a slightly different story). Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 15:51, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Degen is mature. He's not the only one who has bended the rules a bit; all that matters is that you got a screenshot. And that JMod post allows someone to avoid the censor. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 16:08, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Also, I don't see what Degen's hatred of Jagex has to do with this. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 16:10, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
Even if censor evasion is allowed, Degen was not right to kick him. bad_fetustalk 16:13, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Weak oppose - In my honest opinion, Stinkowing reporting that player for using that word was a bit overkill. But, Degenret01 kicking a user for reporting is extreme overkill. It is true users shouldn't fear being muted or banned. But it is up to Jagex's discretion whether to take action or not. If they saw the context, most likely they would not. Users shouldn't fear being kicked for asking a rank a question. Although, deranking Degenret01 for this one instance would also be overkill, so a warning would suffice. Chicken7 >talk 16:17, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - Degen shows maturity and a great knowledge of the rules of our cc. Yes, sometimes he may get carried away and anger people, but de-ranking him will be a big mistake. Also, if you're unsure about rule breaking, I'm not sure whether you deserve your rank.   Swizz Talk   Events!   17:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

No. Gotta love all the drama this site gets. Little issues get blown up into nuclear crises. Warn him at the very most. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 17:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I worded what I said last wrongly. Right now, I don't really feel like pursuing a derank, just a warning is fine. 7kyt1iT.gif --WINE OF GOOD HEALTH (Actually Stinko) 17:47, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Reporting someone to evade the censor to say they are homosexual in a non troll way is absolutely what Jagex means when they talk about context being important. It seems really slimy and childish to violate the trusting environment of the CC to report someone for something stupid like that. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 17:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I see two ridiculous things here.

  1. Reporting for censor evading to politely answer a question in a non-offensive way
  2. Kicking for this report

In my opinion, both actions were completely unjustified. However, I'm not sure that this warrants anything more than a warning. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 19:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC) 

Oppose - It's a definite mis-use of kicking rights. We are allowed in game to report a user at any given time if we feel offended by the actions or if the player breaks any rules, under the terms of conditions by Jagex. This should not reflect a negative opinion on Jagex stances towards users in the channel if one should happen to report, or felt the need too...copied from RuneScape:Clan Chat: Clan Chat is a part of the RuneScape game and disruptive behaviour in the channel is reportable. Users could end up with their RuneScape player account banned if they break the game rules. See the chat policies below.

That stated, Degen is a fair user with the rights and tools he has. Issue this as simply a warning - not a tool removal request.

Bonziiznob Talk

19:42, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose de-rank - However, maybe a slight warning because the kick was unnecessary. It was definitely not an action that is so glaring that it deserves a de-rank though. Best Shield EVERAnnaLove scarves! 19:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - While the kick was unwarranted (from your pictures and tl;dr past Ajr), I feel that this minor incident does not require de-ranking. As for the CC topics ending up on the Yew Grove, I'm sick of it. It's an off-site issue that doesn't need to be YG material. Ryan PM 19:53, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Dunno about you, but I'd rather have it here, where it can be for everyone to see, and be closed reasonably quickly, than be in the cc and just cause more tension. HaloTalk 19:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
The CC topics would take place at RuneScape_talk:Clan_Chat like they should be. Ryan PM 20:10, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
I firmly agree. This is an off-site issue that has absolutely no business in the Yew Grove which is expressly for Wiki related matters. I'm absolutely sick of clan chat discussions making our community look like a bunch of unprofessional seven year olds. Endasil (Talk) @  21:08, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
Ahhh, but they can become wikirelated very quickly. (davelopo) 21:11, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
So can an abusive discussion I have on Google Talk with another Wikian. That doesn't give the Wiki a shred of jurisdiction or obligation to do anything to enforce or moderate my conversations over an IM client. It's none of the Wiki's damned business. Offsite things are offsite, and administration of those things should be done offsite, or at least in a way that clearly delineates where you're going from Wiki-related matters to offsite related matters. The amount of baggage that clan chat moderation has forced on the Wiki is almost heartbreaking. People have no right to turn a Wiki into a policing body for non-Wiki activity. Endasil (Talk) @  21:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
The Clan Chat is very much a part of this wiki, you speak of it as if it has absolutely nothing to do with the wiki. It does. It is our clan chat - our in-game social center, very much a part of this community, and I'm sure many people view it that way. (davelopo) 22:37, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
It is absolutely not a part of this Wiki, and if people consider it that way we should examine how that came about and make sure absolute consensus was achieved. It is something that may be affiliated with the Wiki, in that it happens to be made up of the same people and shares values and goals, and it may be administered by people on the Wiki, but that does not make it a PART of the Wiki. Our IRC chat is the same thing. Every single time we add to the definition of the Wiki by including completely separate things like clan chat and IRC and on and on, we add to the amount of baggage that a user must take on when deciding to join our community. That has very real and present affects on who decides to join our community, and that can be an extremely negative thing. The reason we classify some things as "offsite" is because we want to delineate things that you must accept into your role as a Wikian and things you shouldn't. By making the clan chat part of the Wiki, we are just discouraging useful edits from people who don't want to have to put up with crap like this (myself included for about a year). Endasil (Talk) @  23:35, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Weak Support - I don't ever want anyone to kick anyone because they reported what they believed to be reportable. Degen was completely in the wrong. I'm no going to fully support... as long as it never happens again. (davelopo) 19:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't telling someone that they were kicked "because they suck" fall under UTP...? (I know I'm gonna get blasted for asking that, but it's just a question. Really.) (davelopo) 20:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Although I disagree with the kick, I do not think that it merits a deranking. I have full trust in Degen's judgement. --LiquidTalk 20:07, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

These two sentences contradict each other. 20:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
I suppose I shouldn't have been lazy in typing. What I meant to say is that even though I personally would not have kicked in this situation, I have faith in Degen's ability to judge situations better than I can. If he thinks that it merits a kick, then I'll go with it. --LiquidTalk 20:40, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I oppose the de-ranking, as Degen has always seemed to me to be fair, but I do support a warning. BerserkHackr 20:13, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - per Andorin: "Gotta love all the drama this site gets. Little issues get blown up into nuclear crises. Warn him at the very most." - Couldn't have said it better myself... --Aburnett(Talk) 20:20, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I am opposing, however this is getting ridiculous and need to be cleared up. @ Degen: It is shameful that you kicked someone for reporting someone. you, a supposed champion of AEAE blatantly abusing your power, you are teh one creating an aura of fear in the cc if people aren't even allowed to report misconduct under your rules. On the other hand, stinko, CENSOR EVASION IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES! something is reportable if a) it is offensive, and b) it is reasonable clear what was said.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dark avorian (talk) on 20:50, April 24, 2010.

Can someone please find evidence of this, other than that silly quote? I fear we will have to assume that statement only refers to non-censored words becoming offensive (censored words are not mentioned at all). For example "suck" and "balls" are not offensive in nature, though they can be quite offensive if put together in a way I will not go into. As I said, unless there is surefire evidence that you are allowed to evade the filter when not using the word in an offensive manor, I will continue to report, warn, and kick (where needed) for it. I support this because of the following quote.
4. What about mis-spelling an offensive word to disguise it? Is that okay?

No, please don't do this. In fact, mis-spelling an offensive word or using symbols to replace letters to avoid the chat filter is considered even worse.

— List of rules on the Jagex website [1]

Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 22:26, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Avoiding the censor to place an uncensored word out can be a rule violation, but context is important. My two cents on that little tidbit. 05:08, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Although the kick was indeed unjustified I do agree with chicken de-ranking is a bit overkill a warning is enough. Korasi's sword.png Archmage Elune  TalkHS Void knight deflector.png fetus is my son and I love him. 22:14, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose—The murky line between wiki and cc is crazy-making. Deranking is unjustified. Horsehead Talk 22:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - A kick was definatly unwarnented but deranking is just to strict. A warning will do fine. He can often get very agressive when he believes something but that is only occasionaly (like yesterday). Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 23:52, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Oppsoe- making a joke like that is ok in my book. everyone laughs it off and no1 really cares unless it turns into bullying. if you actually have a look at the reporting system it says "seriosly offensive language" not just offensive language. that kick wasn't justified but i would have politley asked if they hadreported somebody. explained that a joke is not in an offensive context and ask them to not do it again. if they persist ask them to leave then kick them. and the anti-jagex bit cos were only a silver is just you trying to milk the situation here. were silver for a reson and thats the ads yes we all know the raks system is unjust but thats a debate for another thread on the yew grove. just take a joke

Saradomin sword.png Shadow-fox

00:12, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Seems to me like an old grudge more than anything. ʞooɔ 00:33, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - He hates Jagex for more then the ranking thing and has done so for a long long time. He sees Jagex as the Empire and the users as the Rebel Alliance Lol Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 01:44, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

OMG! And MMG is supposed to be Palpatine? But seriously, what does this have to do with the discussion? --LiquidTalk 01:46, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
Forgot to write "per all" at the start... Plus I was explaining how Degen's hatred for Jagex wasn't from the recognition thing which would be rather petty, instead stemming from when Obi Wan Kenobi told him that Jagex killed his father. Either that or he sees the RuneScape players being opressed by Jagex and interfering in all aspects of RuneScape life that has nothing to do with them. Unicorn horn dust.png Evil Yanks talk 01:52, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Cook Me, And Degen is a good guy. Twig Talk 772kZGs.png 05:10, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Degen is a great guy, and lega wasn't censor evasing, he was telling us what he was. BUKKITZ WEEL SMITE YOU!!!Murd3rlogistTalk Contribs Sign here 11:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


Issue Warning Proposal

Not to intrude on the conversation, but it's apparent his tools won't be removed. I think it's best if the community simply listen to obvious "rough consensus" here, officially say "Your kick wasn't justified, please don't do it again", and we move on?

Support - As per above.

Bonziiznob Talk

11:49, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to go through consensus again. That just resets the whole thing. HaloTalk 11:52, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


Degen accepts

That the kick was not truly justified based on the rules we operate under. I do apologize to all the wikians who took time from editing, playing RuneScape, or anything else they would rather have been doing and instead had to take time to read and comment on this ridiculous thing which never should have happened. You all have better things to do, and to you I am sorry that your time was wasted on this matter.--Degenret01 12:11, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Request for Closure - With this apology, could a neutral sysop please close this? Thank you, HaloTalk 12:24, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - This discussion shows that the community believes that while the kick was unjust, Degenret should not be deranked at this time. However, he is admonished to avoid making such kicks in the future. C.ChiamTalk 12:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC)