Forum:Removing the Raffle
- Previous discussions: Forum:Allow admins to participate in the raffle and Forum:Revamp the clan citadel raffle
Hello my dudes, it is time for another discussion on the raffle. I think it is time we get rid of it as it no longer serves any useful function to the clan chat. It also is a player-run game of chance, which violates the rules of runescape.
Comment - I can see where you're coming from in how it's game of chance, but to qualify you have to do approximately an hour of work in the citadel. It was always meant to stimulate citadel skilling/resources. That being said, I don't know how the recent clan citadel update affected how our resources are gained well and I'm not at odds to say if the citadel would still be okay without the raffle to help with incentive for gathering. Coelacanth0794 Talk 02:47, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Commment - I'm not sure how much of an incentive would this be, but maybe change it to a non GP reward? Like if you win the raffle you get placed in a page with list of raffle winners? Kinda like a "hiscore" of winners basically with how many times a player has won the raffle. Or maybe that's not going to work since no cash, idk. --Jlun2 (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
The kids like it - While it may break the letter of the rules in being a game of chance, all gp is awarded and no one is profitting, so it doesn't break the intent of the rule. No harm no foul. Degenret01 (talk)
Oppose Not breaking rules to randomly reward one person in clan for capping, i don't think a raffle is the same as gambling hot or cold in the ge to swindle noobs. Raffle should stay. 03:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is a drain of resources that has no benefit to the wiki. The money could be funneled into projects that help the wiki. The raffle should go. 05:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - It being a "player run game of chance" is disingenuous at best and completely wrong in reality. It's more akin to a giveaway which is not against the rules, not to mention being wildly common among any reasonable sized clan; until I see something explicit from Jagex or even mention/whispers from other clans getting into trouble for similar raffles, this seems like a silly point to try to make tbh.
As for it being of no use, it helps with member retention and recruiting, not that there's any mass exodus going on or anything but you can't say that removing a feature/positive aspect of the clan will improve member retention or make the clan an easier sell to potential members. This has a small knock-on effect to the Wiki at large as it brings people into and keeps them in the editing community that might otherwise not.
As a relatively new member to the CC and Wiki itself I think the Raffle is really neat and try to cap weekly because of it despite it being inefficient every useful metric: XP/Time/Money. This whole thread seems rushed or something? There's like no points to actually have a meaningful discussion about or even a better alternative to use the money you'd save by removing it which I imagine would go a long way to convincing people.06:12, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - Why? A game of chance involves risking something, no one is risking anything here so that argument makes no sense at all. Any clan member can enter the raffle (if they have gained 100k xp over the week), anyone can cap to get extra entries. With Jagex support, it should not be an issue to get funding for the raffle (or anything else we want funding for). The function it is intending to serve is to encourage people to join and stay in our clan over others. The bigger objective is to have an active community around the wiki which encourages people to be involved in wiki editing. If you wanted to suggest a better way to do this then fair enough, but you haven't.
I feel the reason behind this thread is your continued saltiness that you yourself cannot enter the raffle (per the last thread that you made above). That's quite frankly ridiculous and you need to get over it. People who are admins should have enough of a reason to be in the wiki clan already, and we should be focusing on encouraging other people to be involved in the clan. That admins can't enter is not a reflection of a lack of trust in admins, as has been explained to you before.06:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's easy enough to say we could get Jagex support for raffle funding (which may or may not be true), but as it currently stands, we do not have that 15:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment - I think there are better arguments that could be made for removing the raffle, rather than "It also is a player-run game of chance, which violates the rules of runescape. " (i.e. money could be better spent elsewhere, people are capping regardless, etc.).14:59, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- The raffle is said to give people a reason to join and participate in our clan chat. I don't think it accomplishes this, as several people have said that they have to ask clan mates in the clan if they want to be added to the raffle, rather than the member's seeking it out themselves.
- It is claimed the clan chat leads to more people editing the wiki. I don't think this is particularly true either, as we have had several Wikian discussions regarding if just being in the clan chat is good enough for the title, while if it was helping us get more editors, those discussions would be unnecessary.
- The money we're throwing away on this raffle would be more useful spent on either ET events
or to pay out the partial bonds that Jagex doesn't cover for OSWF, rather than it coming out of Cook's account via Kelsey.
- A quote from Discord last night: "[4:26 AM] Gaz: we're currently at 252.7m, so without further input that's 18 weeks (some of which have already been paid out) of raffle before i'm paying for it from my pocket" - raffle & ET money come from the same pool 15:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jagex is now paying for partial bonds too. ʞooɔ 15:36, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - I think Ty’s points are valid. When I’m online, there’s not too many people that actually ask to be added to the raffle when they cap. It doesn’t seem like there’s much interest in it anymore. We’re not saving huge amounts by getting rid of it, but from what we do save I feel like ET could benefit greatly from it. Yes, the money available for ET comes out of the same pool, but they will make greater use out of having more available. There’s a lot of cool events that ET could start doing more often with prizes and if we made a point of reminding ET that they can use the funds. It also gives us a lot more of an opportunity to promote the [new] wiki in-game when there’s an event going on with a ton of people doing something for the chance to earn a prize, rather than giving out money to clannies who already know about the [new] wiki. I’m not really convinced that people are just going to boycott the clan because we no longer have a raffle either jayden 15:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - If you spend even a little bit of time in the clan, you'd realise that there's enough people that cap at the citadel for our upkeep without wanting to join the raffle. It's worth capping regardless, thanks to fealty, so enough people will do it even if we remove the raffle incentive.19:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - If you had actually put some effort into this thread and not made some dumb reasonings (the raffle is not a game of chance), then I would have immediately supported. Ty's points aren't really valid, but let me bring in some own.
In order to actually enter the raffle, you need to explicitly say in the Clan Chat "Hey add me to the raffle". 90% of the time, this is done after people cap at the citadel by the same people every week - there are barely any new entrants. There seems to be a clear disinterest in the raffle and I have no idea why. It's come to the point where I and multiple other ET/Admins have said "Just say you want to join the raffle and you could win 5m". No one joins. Nor is the raffle an incentive to join our clan. The only mention of it is on our clan page (who goes there?), and a short sentence on RS:CC which people skip anyway to read the rules.
We're literally throwing money away and gaining nothing. The Citadel needs only six people or so to cap so that we don't degrade, but people cap regardless of the raffle. The experience is good (+ fealty bonus), the avatar bonus is great (which you don't even need to cap for), and it's afk training. I don't know where else to use the money, but the raffle is not a good idea. 01:34, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - We typically have more people who cap than enter raffle, and on top of that there's plenty people who go for the fealty threshold. So even if we didn't have the raffle prizes, citadel upkeep would be met easily.
We have in the past told ET that they could and should use the money we have without avail, I dont think that'll see any change in the long term, maybe we'll get one event that uses the money sometime soon, and then the money will be forgotten, again. We don't have active enough ET to run some silly games that require effort be to set up.
There's been plenty of times when I've paid out the price and the receiver has been very happy of it, the raffle can make a huge difference in some peoples rs lives, and it's nice to see that happen. A big part of people not entering raffle without rankeds asking about it in CC has to do with how people are (still) scared to edit wiki, (so they don't dare to add their selves in the raffle) and how some people still don't even know about the raffle page we have. And just generally forgetting that it exists. (Have you heard of casual players/users?) Some people come to me directly to be added to the raffle, and they typically try to contact those that they're familiar with, not publicly ask about it in CC in the hopes that someone might add them. Also there has been numerous cases when people have asked to be raffled, and no one has done so. (admins afking or not caring? idk) Which makes it harder for those people to ask about it again at times. We also do get new people to the raffle every now and then, the names change slowly, but they do change.
I don't know where else we could direct the money, if not to the raffle, but I am concerned on how it'll run out eventually if we keep the raffle up. I'd rather see the raffle end before we have no clan stash left to fund any possible ET/wiki events or the like.
The raffle is making people happy. But I don't think it's worth spending ~55m in a month for it. As such I agree that Raffle should be shelved, for now. This all is coming from someone who has added most people to the raffle in the past year, and has paid out big chunk of the pending prizes.00:53, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Meh - The raffle was my baby back when I needed to get more people to cap. Since then it's kind of taken on a broader "encourage clan activity/participation" theme as the original purpose wasn't needed anymore after we got tier 7 and a dragon. I think the raffle is nice to have but I am sensitive to the cost, and think that it's a fair question of whether the funding spend on waffling each month could be better spent elsewhere. Since it doesn't appear that we're doing anything else with it (not even earning interest!) I'd tentatively oppose this for now, but I'd reconsider when someone actually proposes an alternate use, with specifics (so not something general like ET - I'd like to see exactly what kind of event and how it'd pay out prizes). --LiquidTalk 23:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- The ET uses the funds for prizes within events like parties and hide-and-seek events - these events aren't held often (1-2 a year), although when they are, we usually go all out (the New Wiki Launch Party, for example, cost maybe around 300m?). 17:03, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - While I agree it'd be a good idea to explore what the funds could be spent on instead, they're a finite resource that'll continue to dry up regardless of whether or not we have an alternative use for them right now. It's a good bit of fun, but
I never win the bloody thing and oh my god the monthly draw was literally on my birthday and I was so looking forward to keepsaking that beautiful staff from that tree fellow, you know the one in that dungeon and he's in his little grove, well he drops a lovely looking staff and I had an outfit planned for it and everything it's not really fun enough to warrant the cost. I say do away with it and look for something more sensible to spend the funds on. Sahima (Talk) 00:54, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Meh (per Liquid) - That is to say, soft oppose for now. If ET wants to come forward with better uses of the money, then sure, but to eliminate something without a firm plan to replace it seems kind of pointless. Also, if the pool runs dry totally, then by no means should Gaz or anyone else feel obligated to pay out of pocket, and we should revisit at that time. If that is 18 weeks away, though, that should be plenty of time for Events Team to step forward with a better plan.15:09, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Support - Per other people in here.. However, I wouldn't be opposed to merely lowering the raffle reward instead or something like that, rather than removing it altogether.17:03, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Closed - The consensus is strongest in favour of discontinuing the raffle. All outstanding debts (including the currently undrawn week + month) will be paid, and the remaining funds solely available to the events team for future events. (For reference, this is currently 180.6m, but I would expect to be 140m-ish once outstanding debts are paid.)23:29, 5 July 2019 (UTC)