Forum:Remove usergroup hilites

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Forums: Yew Grove > Remove usergroup hilites
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This thread was archived on 14 November 2010 by Liquidhelium.

As usergroup colors are kinda the same as crowns: useless showoff stuff. What is the use of seeing an admin made an edit? there are also admins that don't have the green color, and i didn't see any problems happen. The only usergroups that i think who need special colors are bots and AWB accounts. This is to show that the edits were made (semi) automatical. For all other user groups it is totally unneeded, and just to show "look at me i am an (usergroup)". And if usergroups would get a color, why not let the rollbacks and custodians have red and silver colors? and registered users green colors? Just to show how ridiculous the usergroup colors actually are. I think they should all be removed, exept for bot/awb accounts.

Addition: These colors are also not needed, also not for new users, because we have the RS:WC, and if new users need help with something they go to the talk of the user that welcomed him/her. The only thing is just that from now on something like "if you got questions you should ask me about it on my talk page(with link), and all of these "admins can help people" things will be solved, as other users can also help people. If that user doesn't know the answer, he/she will direct the user to RS:UH or RS:AR. Also the fact it should be completely optional is not possible, as the admins decide what color their name will have, not the viewing users. Another thing is that this does violate RS:AEAE:

An editor's status, popularity, or in-game experience does not affect how they are treated...

These colors are how you treat admins differently than other editors.


Support - as proposer JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 21:24, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

CommentOppose - I somewhat find the hilite on the sysops useful, or at least I did when I joined this wiki. It showed me who I can go to if I needed help, and if they didn't know they knew who to ask and whatnot. To add the hilite to all usergroups would be a nightmare by the way since they add every users name to the list one at a time. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 21:29, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

But custodians have useful tools too. Why not give them the silver color then?(if so i don't want it) JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - I think it should be completely optional. The problem is adding all custodians/rollbacks/users goes overboard, too much effort. You can always add it to personal css if you want. HaloTalk 21:30, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I doubt the hiltite makes anyone think that admins and 'Crats are better than everyone else. And if you (or anyone else for that matter) thinks it does than you can remove it from the users with one on your .css page (wikia) or .css page (monaco). SaradominSign Me! 21:41, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Support complete removal of the hilite - Because it serves no purpose at all. RS:AR and RS:CVU were invented for a reason. Also, this should be another thread, me thinks. ajr 21:45, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - It's fine, no one is forcing you to admire the colours... Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 21:48, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

It's definitely forced on the new user who doesn't know how to edit his CSS, and it's those users who are influenced by the thought of "What do these green names mean? I want one!" Leftiness 01:34, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Seriously, there is nothing wrong with colors for usergroups. They're optional; no one is forced to take them. There is no good reason to remove them. Don't randomly tinker with a perfectly working system. --LiquidTalk 21:52, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

What is the point in even having them if they are optional? Hilites are only effective if everyone has them. ajr 21:53, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
Don't fix what isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with leaving them. --LiquidTalk 21:57, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
Everybody despises that phrase. Please refrain from saying "Don't fix what isn't broken" or "There is nothing wrong" because the proposer obviously thinks that this is an improvement. Can you explain why the proposed change would be detrimental? Leftiness 01:31, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - There are no more points to make I have not already made on a different thread/talk page, per above. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 21:58, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - User hilite is very useful for newer users to find out who to contact if they have any problems. It has been in use for some time and it has personally helped me out more than once. --Callofduty4 22:01, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

So RS:AR exists... why? ajr 22:05, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
This an embellishment to AR. AR is helpful, but not everyone knows about it. Hilites provide another means for users to contact administrators for help. We want to provide them with more options, not fewer. As the saying goes, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket". Diversity in our methods of contacting sysops is a good thing, not a bad thing. --LiquidTalk 22:08, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
Because all users are welcomed, they will mostly go to the user who welcomed them for questions. If this needs a sysop, that user can direct them to a sysop. There is absolutely no need for the color, as other editors can also know lots of things about the wiki. And if the color is just to get help, why do retired admins have the color? then people will ask them things and don't get a response. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per callofduty. Achievements Coelacanth0794 Talk Contribs 22:03, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I seriously think this is the 4th time this year I've seen this topic... Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 22:22, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

This request for closure was denied A user has requested closure for Remove usergroup hilites. Request denied. The reason given was: Forums have to be open for a week

Oppose - They do help new users, and you could say check RS:ADMIN or something like that, but most new users don't know that page exists. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 00:27, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

A link in the welcome notice would fix that. Another thought that a new user might have is "What do these green names mean? I want one," which wouldn't be thought if a link were provided to RS:AR along with an explanation of its purpose. Leftiness 01:32, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, first all new users that become active editors want to be admins, the hilite won't affect that. Second, which is easier got to RS:ADMIN and searching to see if a person is an admin or not. Plus staff, helpers, vstf, awb, bots ect arn't listed on that page. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 03:20, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
If something is said in the welcome notice about that the user needs to go to the talk page of the person who welcomed the user evrything about the needing help things will be solved. Then they can just go to the talk page of that person, and he/she will then direct the user to the correct pages, or answer it him/herself. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
People only look at the welcome notice when they are first welcomed, the main reason hilites are usefull is when looking round the wiki, you see someone and you want to know if they are a sysop/crat or not, asking the person who welcomed them would take a long time. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 12:22, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
why would you wanna know if someone is sysop/crat? Can't other people help people? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 13:36, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
I don't know about you, but if I was a new user, with no experience of the website I was on, I would contact an administrator because I would feel that they are more experienced than normal editors. While this is not the case in general situations, many new users feel that an administrator is trusted, and feel that they can get more help from them. Ruud10KRalph.png 13:49, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - New users are the ones who are influenced by the thought of "What is this green name? I want one!" They're also the ones who don't know how to edit their CSS to get rid of it or add other colors. Leftiness 01:32, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

What is this? I don't even... Changed to "What the hell?!" - Crowns are one thing, but you want to remove the hilites?! The supporters of this thread do make a good point, but hilites are EXTREMELY USEFULL, especially for new users. Yeah sure, RS:ADMIN already has a list, but it's very unlikely someone would be able to remember all those names. Hilites are the EASIEST METHOD of seeing who can do what and seeing how they can help you when something goes wrong. I REALLY REALLY STRONG OPPOSE this thread. Matt (t) 01:45, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - You guys are really taking this AEAE thing too far. Hilites have much more positives then negatives, don't overinterpret AEAE to the detriment of the wiki. 222 talk 03:09, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - FFS, not again...we've had this discussion before........ Andrew talk 03:30, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose OMG how can you deny the elitists a chance to show off how special and superior they are? What are you, some kind of democratic anarchist? (is that even a group?) People need to show off and pretend they are special and superior and better than others. Don't take it away. Who would I make fun of?--Degenret01 03:39, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Could you be serious please? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - AMG I HAS COLORS I POWARFUL -- No. They are a way to identify users with certain tools that most regular users don't have. No everyone knows how to navigate to or even use Special:ListUsers. Hilites are an easy alternative. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 03:42, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - They help newbs. Enough reasoning. bad_fetustalk 07:09, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Other users can also help, or can't you? and if you don't know the answer, there is RS:UH which you can direct em to. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
The thing is, without hilites, they can just go ask for help from someone with 1 edit since they have no idea how to distinguish. This fixes that, and it most certainly hurts nothing. There is no reason to remove. bad_fetustalk 12:26, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Moar Oppose - Per Liquid, if it ain't broken, don't try and fix it. Real Nub 08:45, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

It is. It is useless showoff stuff restricted to special usergroups. What is broken: the fact it is showoff stuff, and we want all editors to be as equal as possible. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
Like Lil Diriz said, they're not for showing off. They are to show that a user has tools that other users don't. If one user is shouting "HEY RESPECT ME MY NAME IS GREEN I AM BETTER THAN YOU" then we can desysop them. If 50 sysops all do that, then yes, it's a problem. I don't see loads of sysops trying to elevate themselves above everybody else by pointing out a green hilite. Therefore, it ain't broken. Real Nub 14:16, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per all opposers. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 12:04, October 23, 2010 (UTC) 

Comment - I heard the reason "they know where to go for help" but that is what RS:UH is for. I added this to the introduction, together with the thing ajr said about RS:AR and other things. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - It helped me when I was new, it'll help another new user as well. C'mon, if an admin ran (Theoretically speaking) around saying how his green name owned the normal blue, steps will be taken to deal with that hilited user. From what I can see, no hilited user at this moment in time has proclaimed about how great he/she is, and it seems to be keeping that way. Ruud10KRalph.png 12:29, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - I see no reason whatsoever to delete something that is not a problem to the Wiki. Whoever earned their hilites didn't do so by showing off. Again, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". @Degenret01: Was that serious? Sergeant icon.gifSergeant HailfireSerjeant cap.png 12:35, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

No Degen wasn't being serious. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 12:38, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
"Whoever earned their hilites" and that is the whole problem. You will start to think it is something you can earn with these colors, which it is not. Adminship is a couple of tools for those who are trusted to use it, and you can't earn it. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 13:39, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Support - There is a point in time when something may not be broken, but that isn't a legitimate reason to keep something. I would have thought that all of the articles in the Project namespace would suffice for this item with RS:AR, RS:BOTS, RS:ADMIN, and RS:AWB. Hell, you might end up with something like [[w:c:wowwiki:Forum:Future of WoWWiki|this]] from Wikia and it could be seen as not broken where others say it is due to AEAE and some might agree with going with it due to "earning." These "hilites" are worthless if an administrator can opt out, even more-so when you have the former project titles. If you want to know if they help new users, ask Wikia for a sample of their click-tracking data and see if those users who are hilited get more page-views than those administrators that do not. Their are flaws through and through with opposition and approval of the removal for hilites, but I seem to be in the extreme minority that would like to see their removal with no benefit minus the removal of some users (like me) that dictate that they might be in violation of equality in editing. Ryan PM 13:57, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

According to Special:Mostvisitedpages, they do have more visits on average. (Also, AEAE does not apply here because that only deals with the fact that my opinion is not worth more than yours based solely on the fact that I'm a sysop.) --LiquidTalk 14:00, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
Then under that reasoning, anyone should have a hilite because "my opinion is not worth more than yours." It is also known that not everyone may see AEAE in the same way. We're all equal, and with equality comes equal importance. Thus I should say that hilites do not have equal importance because only certain individuals can obtain them. This is made worse by the fact that we are one of a few wikis that use hilites and that people throw out AEAE because they think that people only support due to believing it's due to "opinion worth." On the contrary I know your opinion should not weigh more than any other user, I believe that if we are to keep hilites, anyone should be able to have their own in the MediaWiki namespace or remove it entirely and just have a static list in the [[MediaWiki:Community-corner|Community Corner]] for people to add it to their own personal CSS. Ryan PM 14:13, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Hey guys, since you didn't like my RS:AR argument because apparently sometimes people want to contact an individual administrator, I got a great idea and went out and made two [email protected]!!!! RuneScape:Administrators displays lots of info on each admin, and Special:ListUsers/sysop gives you a full list of them. Oh, also, I even went and made RS:UH so that requests that don't require sysop tools, but experienced users, can be dealt with by non-sysops. Aren't my ideas awesome? Anyways, beyond that, Degen's argument really sunk in with me. I don't want to lose the status symbol that is my lovely green name. After all, I'm 16, and am just here so that I can have power over other users. The green name really signifies that well. So I oppose this thread. ajr 14:45, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

But.... but... if you're new you most likely don't know about those. Lemme just ask you this, how many of the newer users do you think actually read the Welcoming messages? svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 14:50, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
I know I didn't. Yay for being ignorant/unhelpful! Real Nub 14:53, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
Welcome messages can be removed from user talk without breaking RS:DDD due to them not really being a discussion. I really had hoped more people would see the folly in saying "Don't fix what isn't broken." There is no hope for this ever passing and will eventually be added to the Do not discuss thread for the Yew Grove. Ryan PM 14:54, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
I'd love to see hilites removed, but some people see their green name as an accomplishment, and others want to get one, so we'd better not try to take them away ;) ajr 14:56, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
I don't. I felt the same way about hilites before I became an administrator, making my current adminship status completely irrelevant. I highly doubt any of our admins in support of hilites have a different story. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 15:34, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Stelercus. Quite frankly, I consider the green color more of an eyesore than a benefit. However, I'm willing to put up with it because I'd rather provide new users with more options for help. There is nothing wrong with giving them more options to get help. --LiquidTalk 15:37, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
Wait Ryan, what's the "folly" in saying don't fix what isn't broken? Real Nub 15:49, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
The folly is that they can be perceived as broken, that they do not need to be changed because someone thinks that they are not, and that hilites are explicitly not needed when people say "Don't fix what isn't broken." They are indeed broken when only a select group of individuals can have it and still say they don't give authority. That's complete bullshit when it is targeted to new users for them to ask questions which makes new users believe there is an authoritative figure. The only time they will actually see the hilite is when they access Special:WikiActivity or Special:RecentChanges which few inexperienced users do. Redirect them to RuneScape:User help or RuneScape:Administrator requests than to a specific user. Ryan PM 15:58, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
RS:AR is better than contacting an individual anyways. ajr 16:04, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
Who said that sysops deserve more recognition? Ajr, new users have no idea what RS:AR is, and Ryan, stop there, there's a Recent Activity widget which (I think) is on the sidebar by default. There is often a green name there, and if sysops aren't authority, give the blocking tools to every user, see how that turns out. Real Nub 16:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
That's what the Special:BlockMe page was for. "I want to dispel the aura of "authority" around the position. It's merely a technical matter that the powers given to sysops are not given out to everyone." - Jimbo Wales. Ryan PM 16:29, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
And why was BlockMe disabled, then? Real Nub 19:01, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Its not doing any harm despite what some doomsday prophets seem to believe, and it is a good way for users to find the most recently active sysop in the recent changes. Who said we couldn't have more than one way to get in touch with admins? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:28, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

If we do indeed keep the hilites, can there be a hilite for offensive users? That way people know to avoid us since we're so offensive. I was thinking a bright red. (wszx) 22:53, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well the main concerns that struck me are
  • We would need a policy on when to do that.
  • Users will get angry that they've been deemed offensive to the community.

Though I like the idea of having, perhaps a bright red hilite, for users that have been indefinitley blocked. That way people will know that if you try to contact them, you'll get no response. Matt (t) 06:09, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind that, and even support that, because that is nothing like "look at me i am sysop/crat/idunnowhatmore" and even is the opposite. Also for the same reasons why i think bot colors should stay: they edit in another way than most users: bots are automated, blocked ppl offensive/vandalising most times. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 17:55, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I've argued my points before, I'm sure most of you know where I stand and why. --Aburnett(Talk) 20:48, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - Is this some sort of joke? The whole point of the admin names being highlighted in green is to help the newer users identify them as admins, and to allow these new users to send messages onto their talk pages. Don't give me any of that RS:AR, RS:AEAE or any of that policy stuff... Your blowing a tiny small feature of the wiki out of proportion throwing all these different policies at it... The highlight, or formally known as hilite is an ease of use feature, why the hell would a new user, possibly as lost and confused as it is, need to search up and go through tons of pages just to ask for help? RSN: Warthog Rhys Talk Completionist's cape... Coming soon. 01:25, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

First: No joke. Second: Not tons of pages, just go to their talk page, and click on the signature orf the welcoming user, and you have your "beginners guide". I repeat: Admins are not the only ones who can help new users. Non-sysops can as well help. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 11:10, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
You have not provided a reason to remove it. Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 14:35, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Honestly, I don't think there is a reason to remove green highlights. It's obvious that they are an additional way in which inexperienced users can find an experienced user to ask questions despite how much more effective RS:AR and RS:UH are, and you don't need consensus to add "Feel free to ask me questions on my talk page" to your welcome notice. Of course adding "Go to RS:UH to ask questions" to your welcome notice would be far more effective than any green highlight or talk page request, but the point remains that having more than one method of finding help is a good thing even if the more common methods are less effective.

As I've said more than once, it's quite obvious that the majority of the community approves or has no opinion about the highlights, and, personally, it looks to me as though the supporting argument is the best for the wiki. While I'm not authorized to determined consensus, I'd say that highlights have it. Because of that, and because of the consistent and heated discussion involving RS:AEAE and RS:AEAE-related issues like this one, I would really like it to be explicitly put in policy that consensus can make users unequal because it's also quite obvious that having a highlight does make you unequal - if only slightly, and maybe if only to the new user who doesn't know what it means. Truly, we are a consensus-based community, and it's already defined that consensus can change policy; why don't we say that consensus can make users unequal? Leftiness 15:04, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I like the hilites.--Farming cape (t).png Ikin Talk 15:21, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Really? I keep seeing over and over and over again, "it lets us identify sysops". But everyone who says that misses one key thing. There is NO reason one should be able to identify them. None. It does not matter who is a sysop or who is not, so why the hell would anyone need to identify them? You have a question? What makes you think the sysop will know the answer? What makes you even think they will respond to a question in the next week? You just saw them in Recent Changes? There has been more than once someone asks a person a question only to find out that person just made thier last edit for a day or two, now you get no answer. That is why we have the pages for help. Because looking for a sysop is ineffective and unreliable. I do wish at least one sysop would have the guts to admit they like showing off. It is crtain that at least one of them doesn't want to get rid of them for that very reason, but not a one will stand up and say it. Way to show some guts. --Degenret01 15:31, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Please stop making those kinds of accusations. Quite a few non-admins have supported keeping the hilites, meaning there are widely understood reasons for having them that do not include showing off. If you disagree with those reasons, that's fine, but it is still never acceptable to attack another person's character. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 19:00, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
I didn't attack any ones character Steler. A bit defensive are you? What I said is based on the number of sysops and the fact people in general like to have some way to show they are better/superior to those around them. With those things in mind what I said is just about certain. Go ask a sociologist if you don't believe me.--Degenret01 20:01, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I admit it. The only reason I want to keep the highlights is so that can tell my friends, family, neighbors, dogs, and cats that my name is green and it makes me the man. I mean, it just feels so good to know that users going through the recent changes are thinking "OMG, I know Aburnett is a sysop because I see his heinous green name. He's so awesome." I'm actually in the process of converting to all green clothing both in RuneScape and in my daily life so that not a moment passes without people knowing I am an administrator on this site. --Aburnett(Talk) 20:21, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
"I do wish at least one sysop would have the guts to admit they like showing off. It is certain that at least one of them doesn't want to get rid of them for that very reason, but not a one will stand up and say it. Way to show some guts." While I understand where you're coming from regarding sociology, that doesn't rationalize your accusation. I take the previous quote to mean, "If the person is a sysop and they support having hilites, then it is probable that he or she only wants it to show off. Additionally, if he or she only wants it to show off, then he or she has no guts." Because I am a sysop and I support having hilites, I am conceivably one of the people you are saying has no guts. No, you didn't target anyone personally, though I consider assumption unfair to all those who could potentially be targeted. I have reason to be defending both them and myself. My apologies if I sound aggressive, as I'm having a hard time wording this in a way that matches my lack thereof. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 20:51, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
I find it disappointing that just because I find it useful to be able to identify sysops in the recent changes that I must be a vainglorious show off who only wishes to enjoy an undue sense of self satisfaction from being identifiable as a sysop. I find it equally disappointing that the opposition is so sure that this is the only reason someone may wish to visibly identify themselves as a sysop that they have taken to aggressively insisting that all proponents are motivated only by vainglory. I think this is a narrow-minded and logically fallacious assumption to make, and does nothing but tarnish any other legitimate points the opposition may have. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 21:21, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
Annnnnd, we come right down to STILL, not a single reason has been offered to show WHY we should be able to identify sysops.--Degenret01 04:13, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Have you read this discussion? Just because you consider our arguments invalid does not void them. --Aburnett(Talk) 04:17, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Your arguments in this entire discussion add up to wanting them to ID sysops. Period. Unless you are referring to where you oh so wisely say Alright, I admit it. The only reason I want to keep the highlights is so that can tell my friends, family, neighbors, dogs, and cats that my name is green and it makes me the man. I mean, it just feels so good to know that users going through the recent changes are thinking "OMG, I know Aburnett is a sysop because I see his heinous green name. He's so awesome." I'm actually in the process of converting to all green clothing both in RuneScape and in my daily life so that not a moment passes without people knowing I am an administrator on this site-Aburnett --Degenret01 04:51, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Because that is the purpose of the highlights, and that is why they should stay. I wish you had the guts to accept that your argument is not the only one. --Aburnett(Talk) 05:12, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
I have thrice acknowledged the argument for keeping them. Way to observe. I have also thrice asked what is the point to that argument. Let me refresh it. The argument to keep is "To ID sysops". I have asked "Why do you need to ID sysops?" I recognize there may be an answer to that, but as of yet no one has answered it. Try now. Why do people feel the need to ID who the sysops are?--Degenret01 05:18, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
To identify them within the recent changes. Although not always applicable, sysops tend to have a solid knowledge of what goes on on the wiki and how to edit here. Editors who need a quick answer to a question can use the highlighted name to quickly identify who they could contact. --Aburnett(Talk) 05:23, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
The first point has some merit but can be argued as giving sysops more credit than others, which is indeed against AEAE. Your second argument is one I have mentioned several times as being a very bad one, as one cannot know if that sysop has just made their final edit for some hours or days, and so one should never look for a sysop in the RC to ask a question of if there is any urgency to getting an answer.--Degenret01 05:32, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
If so, Recent Changes stalkers can answer it. Usually sysops will not suddenly leave the Wiki without prior notice for weeks or days. I'll leave the rest to Aburnett. 222 talk 05:37, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
(Edit conflict, thebrain raises a good point too) That's absurd. Explain to me how taking a shot in the dark on RS:A or using RS:AR will be faster? If people need a quick answer, people should start by trying an active sysop, then moving on to RS:AR. As far as I know, RS:AR doesn't give me a notice right on the page I'm viewing prompting me to respond. Using the RC is second only to the IRC and CC in terms of speed. --Aburnett(Talk) 05:44, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
And then you were accusing me of "aggressively insulting" you, you said that to me in IRC, remember? (I don't remember the exact wording, but this is close). The sheer number of people who find the hilites useful per their states reasons should be enough without me having to list them all in one giant text-wall. 222 talk 04:35, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
That was the other discussion, yes indeed sir. Yes indeed.--Degenret01 04:51, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Out of personal experience, I have been approached upwards of 10 time by at least 5 different editors who asked me to perform some maintenance task because I was the most recently active sysop in the recent changes. And I don't often check AR because the discussions there are often about skins, mediawiki, and things I don't fully understand nor am interested in. By having a hilited name, users are able to directly contact me and get a faster response than they would have if they had posted on AR. I don't understand how that is a bad thing. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 19:19, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - They can be helpful to new users, like they were to me. "But any user can help you!!1!1one!" Yes, but rather than picking any random user I see pop up in Recent Changes, one with color will signify that they have been around longer (it was obvious to me, at least). That leads me to believe that that person most likely knows what they're doing as opposed to a random person who I may pick that has 11 edits. (: RE the Welcoming Committee part - I didn't actually become active on the wiki until an entire year had passed since that message was posted. I didn't even realize it was still there until long after I started getting active and learned what a talk page was. (: sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 05:39, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per everyone. You're making me want to abolish AEAE. White partyhat old.png C Teng talk 16:27, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Notice of Intent - I'm sure saying this will not end well, though should this proposal fail, I intend to add it to the list at RS:REJECTED. It's been discussed several times over, yet consensus has always leaned in the same direction. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 16:52, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Permanent. Walled garden. Crystal ball. As a consensus-based community, excepting issues of legality, that we have such a list is against everything we stand for. For example, in the case of preventing unregistered users from editing, if somebody made a valid point to a community altogether different from the community that added the proposal to the rejected list, that list should not stand in the way of the current community making a consensus decision. The previous generation of editors should not determine permanent consensus for future generations, and how do you justify pretending that you know the circumstances of future generations? What factors do you predict will affect their decisions?
I can understand where "forum shopping" comes into play, and we can shut down a discussion if the user recently received disapproval and now attempts to use the same logic in proposing, but that list needs to be removed. Leftiness 18:54, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
No, that list is fine at the two items it has. We simply make sure that people trying to add to it follow the criteria, which Steler is entirely ignoring. If he were to add it I would remove it immediately, no one is going to misuse "Previously rejected proposals" while I am a wikian. For fast review for those unaware, there are two criteria that must be met.
  • The topic has been discussed and rejected at least three times.
  • The community has rejected the proposal overwhelmingly.

This fails to meet criteria number two and as such does not belong there. Also keep in mind, items on that list are not entirely forbidden to be re-raised, proposers should instead consider why they have failed overwhelmingly and address those issues, or they will simply be wasting everyones time.--Degenret01 19:10, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Out of 19 different editors who posted here, only you, Joey, and Ajr have come out against the hilites. I would say that counts as overwhelmingly rejected. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 19:19, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
^bad_fetustalk 19:48, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
I'm now under the assumption of being totally ignored with that comment and at RS:AR, although for a completely different item in question. There are currently 30 different people that have contributed to the page credits. I see at least four contributors supporting or endorsing the removal of hilites. Ryan PM 22:49, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Oops sorry I saw you while I did the count and then I forgot to add you to the list after the fact. I guess you're just totally forgettable. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 22:55, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
I'd tend to agree that this proposal has not been rejected quite as overwhelmingly enough to be added to RS:REJECTED. 222 talk 22:58, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Endisal would support it too!!!!! If he were here... ajr 23:21, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Not to say that his opinion doesn't matter at all, but if he is inactive, what merit does he have to dictate our policies? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 23:23, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
You cannot count Endasil. If he doesn't show up to express his opinion, he doesn't count. --LiquidTalk 23:27, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
Trying to use simply the opposes on one single thread is gaming the system, you MUST look at how the proposal has gone on EVERY thread it has run. Do whatever you want, I will simply undo all the abuses of our systems that you intend to do. I will not argue it anymore, I have let you know what will happen.--Degenret01 23:44, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
In which other threads has this been discussed? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 23:48, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
(editconflict)Where is the time we didn't look at how many people supported? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 23:51, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
How else do you expect us to find overwhelmingly opposed? And Degen, that's simply abusing sysop powers, nothing else. bad_fetustalk 19:26, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
I don't know why I just said it's abusing sysop powers on the above response, I meant to say it's violating rs:consensus >_<. bad_fetustalk 19:28, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
Wrong Chess. I will be following consensus by making sure that only items that meet criteria determined by consensus are added to the list, and not allowing things to be added just becuase of a single threads supporters. Just because some people here want to shortcut the process because they do not want to deal with this issue is no reason to allow them to do the shortcutting of that process. It will be followed. Thank you and your welcome.--Degenret01 00:17, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Democracy. Majority. None. He as a person - his name and vote have nothing to do with dictating our policies. Neither does mine, Degen's, or anybody else's. We use consensus here, where the strength of arguments determine the outcome, and it bothers me that users would argue the merit of having a "Do not post" list. Arguably, if sysops make a conscious effort to check RS:AR, and if users make a conscious effort to check RS:UH, hilites will have miniscule and redundant benefit far outweighed, in my opinion, by the detriment of creating indisputable inequality. Leftiness 23:45, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

Question... - Joey... Can you provide me examples of when a sysop has held their hilite as a 'trophy' to show off to people? Because, right now, your argument is being completely illogical and it almost seems as if your jealous... As to Degen's opinion on the matter, identification of sysops is key for new users as the majority of new users are going to ask an experienced, well known user for help... This whole proposal is preposterous. (Does this warrant me to join WSZX's offensive users group now?) RSN: Warthog Rhys Talk Completionist's cape... Coming soon. 16:59, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Nobody blatantly directs attention to their highlight. Though Degen is clearly using sarcasm to make a point, I'm of the belief that it isn't the highlighted user who has any trouble understanding AEAE; it's the new user. For example, it's the user who complains about all this discussion and suggests we put the subject to a poll. They are the ones to whom we need to be clear.
There has previously been consensus to make some users unequal on the premise that it helps newer users identify them for the purpose of asking for help. While I disagree with the premise, consensus was determined. As we are a consensus-based community, and since it says that consensus changes policies, I again stress the need for a section of AEAE explaining that consensus can make users unequal; it's already true, but it would prevent this sort of argument as the only detriment to having highlights is that it violates AEAE.
Since many of those in support of highlights also oppose adding such a section to AEAE, it's assumed that they don't believe the highlights make them unequal, but it's obvious that directing new users to a group of editors determined by consensus to be "good helpers" is not considering the weight of their opinion as equal to any non-admin's. While I understand that we must for our own good use systems to determine worth, it bothers me that we rely on that determined worth in direct contradiction to AEAE despite the effectiveness of RS:AR and RS:UH. Leftiness 17:27, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
I understand your whole concept of the issue, but AEAE, if suggesting we need to remove the hilites, would pretty much suggest making every single user the same, meaning the administrative powers being added to all members, or removed from all administrators. The hilites are out there to cause ALOT more help then they are to cause trouble. Naturally, if I need help for whatever reason, I goto the recent changes and I post a message on the talk page of the most recent administrator to make a post. I'm not going to post on RS:AR or RS:UH and wait a period of time which could be days since the lack of a notification system. IF, and only IF you decide to remove the hilitess from the system, atleast add some sort of notification script that will immediately attract the attention of online administrators and custodians to check the page. RSN: Warthog Rhys Talk Completionist's cape... Coming soon. 20:51, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
To be completely honest, that argument upsets me if only because I see it far too often. Adding administrative powers requires consensus. With a clause in RS:AEAE stating that users may be made unequal if consensus determines it, only those users who have been approved with consensus would be administrators. In regards to notification scripts: while it may be useful, consider the CVU; look at how effective it is, how often certain administrators check it, and how quickly a request is taken care of. If highlights were removed, the wait time of RS:AR and RS:UH would be similar to the CVU. I expect the wait time between a posted request and action would be minutes during the most lonely hours of the night. Leftiness 00:44, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - The hilites will remain, since there is no consensus to remove them. I will not be adding this to previously rejected threads. --LiquidTalk 00:28, November 14, 2010 (UTC)