Forum:Remove estimated time from quest guides

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Forums: Yew Grove > Remove estimated time from quest guides
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This thread was archived on 18 December 2017 by Salix of Prifddinas.

In the words of Liquid, these estimated times are getting a little ridiculous.

I don't recall if estimated times being added to quest guides was originally discussed or not, but I'm creating this because I feel like there are a number of issues with including this information on the wiki. First, I know people including Borithel have put a lot of work into this and I don't want to devalue that effort, but I don't think that including estimated times on wiki articles is helpful to an average reader.

For a lot of quests, a lot of factors impact how quickly a player will complete it, including but not limited to:

  • Having recommended skill levels
  • Failing agility courses
  • Failing other activities (most recent example is the guard avoidance part of Evil Dave's Big Day Out)
  • Having certain teleports
  • Obtaining items before the quest rather than during
  • How quickly a player interacts with something or clicks somewhere
  • The weapons and armour that a player is using for combat

This means that providing estimated times is an entirely subjective thing. If we estimated something to take about an hour and 12 minutes (which is awfully precise, by the way), but someone else takes two hours and 2 minutes, and someone else takes 45 minutes, then what should the estimated time on the quest guide actually be? It's actually already been seen that people have edited this time value to reflect their own times, changing it from what it already was, and then other people revert it, and then it becomes a potential edit war.

We use the official lengths that Jagex provide on quest overview screens or something similar in the length field on our quest guides, or we categorise it based on a general consensus, but providing an estimated time is not helpful to our readers. I think Talk:Underground Pass is an example of what should be done if people really want to post the times it took them to complete the quest. This info should be kept out of the mainspace articles to avoid them being inaccurate. It is also incredibly hard to verify that someone's estimated time is actually correct without doing the quest yourself, which people may either not want to go through the effort of doing, or may not be able to do.

The main point here is that everyone plays the game differently and not everyone will complete a quest in the same amount of time as everyone else. We shouldn't try to judge something ourselves when Jagex already gives us their official interpretation of quest length, so I'm proposing that we remove estimated time from all quest articles, and remove the parameter from Module:QuestDetails.


Support - jayden 23:59, December 10, 2017 (UTC)

Support - As I mentioned earlier during a discussion on Discord, all that is happening with these estimated times is endless edits, by different editors, changing it to a new time that is not even close to the previous one. No general consensus is being formed. This discussion began earlier today when an editor mentioned in Discord they had edited a quest time because they had completed a quest in ~15 minutes while the estimated time on the article said ~53 minutes. That's a vast difference that I feel demonstrates that these times are not needed. Pernix cowl detail.png MAGE-KIL-R (Talk)Zaros symbol.png 00:08, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Support - The times are too specific and frankly it'll vary between every player. Perhaps if a bigger range of times were given (e.g. 40mins - 1hour 20mins instead of 57mins), it'd cover a bigger range of factors. Having such a specific time that was only recorded in one run (correct me if it's an average) is very specific to that run and not others and therefore could be seen as confusing.

As Jayden mentioned the time doesn't take into account many factors during the quest and the person themselves. Someone who has played for many years will most likely have an easier time with a new quest as with someone who has only recently joined.

However I can appreciate the work put in and it shouldn't be put to waste, so maybe implement it elsewhere such as the talk page. --Talk to Kelsey 00:11, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Support - 67 kc vitalismanhattan'Ironman btw 00:11, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - To add to above: Quests are now all using the official Jagex quest length like found in game, Mage-Kil-R and I verified and corrected the length today. So it is not categorised based on general consensus, but taken from the game. Also subquests don't have the official Jagex quest length as they don't have individual quest overview screens unlike the parent quest (RfD, DoD). Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 00:16, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that Salix jayden 00:16, December 11, 2017 (UTC)
Also to clarify a bit more: the initial discussion was only between Boritel and me, as he noticed that I removed all the estimated time lengths that people added to the length parameter, so he asked if it those times could be preserved so I created the etime parameter to preserve the estimated time lengths. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 00:21, December 11, 2017 (UTC)
Earlier this morning, Ciphrius, Borithel, and I had a discussion about this exact subject after an editor mentioned they had edited a quest time and I mentioned that I felt the times should just be removed. Pernix cowl detail.png MAGE-KIL-R (Talk)Zaros symbol.png 00:30, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Support - From my understanding, most of these times are based on a single piece of datum. There needs to be a greater range of data available and ranges as Kelsey suggested before these are viable, and we shouldnae be displaying completion times until that data is available, and especially nae as precise as they are currently (57 mins, really need that precision?) What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 00:50, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - So, this is my project. It's been a huge effort to moderate because in order to adhere to the standards set for the etime value, you'd have to go out of your way to find the template page, and it seems no one does that before changing the value.

The project I envisioned in 5 years to have a very accurate range of quest times, indicated like 20–40 minutes. The starting values were all given very specific times because in order to estimate properly you need accurate data. So the majority of pages will have something super specific and not be a range (because I only had one time), but an approximation like ~1h 32 minutes. Given time I can see all the worries of inaccuracies being gone, because the range should reflect any type of player that is following the guide (these etimes were specifically for people following the guide). If someone is slow, they'll be at the larger time range, if someone is fast they'll be at the shorter range.

As far as not knowing if someone's time is real or not, that wouldn't be a problem because ideally there would be a massive list of people having reported their times and just like a charm log, it would be marked as vandalism, in a sense, if the time was out of the pattern.

Another thing to consider, is Jagex recently updated all of their quest times, changing some short quests to medium quests for example. This can be considered Jagex's admittance to their previous official lengths being wildly inaccurate, and inconsistent. Players wanting to gauge their time spent were mislead, thus having this estimate made it much clearer to gather what you should expect. I haven't researched how accurate their new times are, but I'm less interested in keeping etime a thing if they indeed were made consistent, and as compensation, the page that lists quest lengths as an overview could have a etime instead, saying "short quests are expected to take 10–30 minutes".

In conclusion, most of the concerns here would ultimately be fixed with time because we'd have more data from different types of players. But there are issues that won't be fixed with time, and that's player awareness on the instructions on how to properly make an addition to etime. Considering Jagex updated their official lengthes, I don't mind these times being removed from the pages (would take so much work off my back though), but instead i'd like the data to be reflected to the overview page for quests and state what to expect from each offical length in terms of time. --Ironman badge.pngIronman BorithelQuick chat button.png 01:02, December 11, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - I feel like this is helpful information for casual players, e.g. can I complete a quest in a short amount of time during an evening or do I need to dedicate a weekend to it? However, things like boss fights often have huge variations in time depending on the skill of the player - I completed Nomad's Requiem (pre-EoC) over a period of days, if not weeks, because I kept running out of supplies and having to reacquire the money to stock up again.

Perhaps a more general indication of time would be helpful, e.g. short quests can be completed in 30 mins or less, whereas as Grandmaster takes 5 hours+ assuming the help of the wiki's guide. There are obviously outliers here such as being able to estimate the length of Broken Home to almost the minute for a good run, but others such MEP2 tasking longer based on nothing more than blind luck with the obstacles, but I feel that's probably the best way to start such a project rather than using weirdly specific times. cqm 22:04, 11 Dec 2017 (UTC) (UTC)

Support --Deltaslug (talk) 03:26, December 12, 2017 (UTC)

Support - just keep official lengths on the page where applicable, and unofficial ones if they're not. Adding an estimated time in minutes/hours becomes a mess really quickly. User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 11:53, December 18, 2017 (UTC)

Closed - Estimated times will be removed from the quest pages and from Template:Quest details. All future additions of specific times will be removed. The official time indication by Jagex or an estimate length indication (these will not be specific times) for subquests without an official Jagex quest length indication will be kept. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 12:16, December 18, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - Estimated times have been removed from the quest guides. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 22:46, December 20, 2017 (UTC)