Forum:Remove RelatedPagesModule

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This thread was archived on 8 December 2010 by Gaz Lloyd.

If you’ve been on a mainspace page today, you’ll notice that there’s a new section on the pages that says “Read more”, and has three random pages that are in the same category as the page you’re viewing. These pages are often completely unrelated. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, this is at the bottom of Do No Evil:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5777/readmorev.png

This is really not at all related to Do No Evil, and it seems to be random as to what goes into that list. People are not going to want to learn about Swan Song while doing Do No Evil. In addition, it adds to the already enormous amount of things at the bottom of the page that unregistered users see.

This is another un-needed function that has been forced upon us by Wikia, and it is (in my opinion) incredibly unnecessary and even detrimental to us.

I am requesting that we remove this by adding .RelatedPagesModule{display:none;} to [[MediaWiki:Wikia.css]]. In addition, to remove the similar thing on category pages, we would add .category-gallery{display:none;}.

I understand that this is against Wikia’s Terms of Use, and that generally it's not a good idea to be rambunctious, but I think it’s time that we make our voices heard. Apparently this feature is optional. Removing it should not be a problem. Apparently Wikia will be able to remove it from the source, so no CSS changes will be necessary.

Discussion

Support - As nominator. ʞooɔ 22:46, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Agree - with cuk u plz nominator. Thats pretty much what I think of it, so nothing more to add. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 22:49, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Support - It adds irrelevant read also pages, and it almost destroys the ease of searching in categories. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 22:55, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Can't think of something to add. SardominSign Me! 22:57, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Support - It's useless. HaloTalk 23:07, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Nonconstructive and ugly module which does nothing. Needs to go. --Callofduty4 23:19, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Strong support - We have to take some sort of stand against Wikia. In this case, we can make a pretty good case against it being a "core skin function" or whatever they call it. --LiquidTalk 23:42, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Begone, vile thing! Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 23:47, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Support - The way we use categories, something like this really doesn't make sense. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 23:57, December 1, 2010 (UTC) 

Support - Cook said if i didn't support this he would block me. Per TLUL - [Pharos] 00:55, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Self-explanatory. Andrew talk 01:21, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - While I like this proposal, this proposal is stupid. It basically makes Wikia look weird. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16) 跟我谈话 01:42, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

The proposal is to remove it... it's already in effect... Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 01:45, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
I think this proposal is stupid. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16) 跟我谈话 01:52, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
You like a proposal you find stupid? svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 01:53, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
...Jeff, you thoroughly confuse me. What exactly to you find 'stupid'? The way to change the gallery? The gallery itself? Or the wording of the proposal? Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody!
Just the part about removing the gallery. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16) 跟我谈话 01:58, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
So you want the gallery to stay? But you said "It basically makes Wikia look weird". Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 02:00, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Dude, that makes zero sense whatsoever. You like it but it's stupid? What part of it do you think is stupid? What are your reasons for wanting to keep the gallery? You're stupefying me. ʞooɔ 02:12, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Also, if you think removing it makes Wikia look weird, does that mean you thought Wikia looked weird before this change and adding the RelatedPagesModule made it...un-weird? ʞooɔ 02:46, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
yo dawg i herd u like RelatedPagesModules so i put a RelatedPagesModule in your RelatedPagesModule so you can RelatedPagesModule while you RelatedPagesModule --Iiii I I I 03:58, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
I think i've just had a brain aniorism from reading this comment... Jeff, please elaborate on what you mean - [Pharos] 04:08, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Damn it. You made me lol IRL at 12:15 AM. Remind me not to look at the YG in bed. ----クールネシトーク 05:15, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Support - --Iiii I I I 01:48, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - per Jeff Riblet15 02:47, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per cook. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 03:38, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - While on IRC I received a message from Sannse, and we had a small bit of a discussion over this.

  1. [21:57] <sannse> sure... I think two bits... the category images and the "see also" are both optional features (although I hope people will give them a go...)
  2. The See also pages are chosen by the categories on the page, and if it isn't in a category it doesn't appear.
  3. If you put __NORELATEDPAGES__ it will not appear.

svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 04:18, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Duh... Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 04:20, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, misread. Nevermind. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 18:50, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Clue scrolls have nothing to do with Morytania paintings. Matt (t) 04:47, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Its just confusing and any related articles are already linked to in the page itself. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 04:54, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

So, I had a conversation with sannse on IRC. Having those included is optional, but she hopes that we'll like it. I told her that the whole thing will probably not work because of the way we structure our categories; we have all items in the Items category, and oftentimes they're not related at all. ʞooɔ 04:59, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Looked bad from the start when it was introduced to the Godzilla Wiki. What makes them think to roll-over all new features to all wikis just astounds me when the community will almost unanimously oppose the usage of the addition. Ryan PM 05:22, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Strong support - Go away. 222 talk 05:35, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - eww Henneyj 07:11, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per above. Suppa chuppa Talk 07:18, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per all. Real Nub 07:40, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Zsupport - Per failure of Wikia. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 11:57, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - All the supports in the world wont make any difference. Wikia are forcing it on people and removal is against the terms of use. If admins add the code to the Wikia.css file to hide this feature then they could find themselves de-sysopped or even banned. The only way to remove these highly unpopular and unwanted features is to move to a new host. See discussion on moving. --Gold ore.png Mercifull UK serv.svg (Talk) 12:07, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

From my post above: Having those included is optional. We can remove it at the source. ʞooɔ 12:10, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
That's an opt out not opt in. there are over 16,000 pages on the wiki. The only way to remove this to add __NORELATEDPAGES__ to every single page! That's ridiculous. --Gold ore.png Mercifull UK serv.svg (Talk) 16:29, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
... or, as stated in the opening explanation we can add 2 lines of code to [[MediaWiki:Wikia.css]] and they're gone from every page... Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 16:36, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
You can use the magic words but the ToU forbids editing the CSS to hide it site-wide. --Gold ore.png Mercifull UK serv.svg (Talk) 19:28, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Then program a bot to do it. Or ask Cook... Real Nub 19:48, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Gonna copy and paste what I said at the bottom: "__NORELATEDPAGES__ doesn't work, I put it on this revision and it's still there. And by the fact people have said "__NORELATEDPAGES__" without nowiki shows it doesn't work." Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 19:50, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Someone give me one of these for not reading that. Real Nub 19:53, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Notice we say we are breaking the ToU. But as seen above, Sannse said they were optional features, even though they hope people will try them. They aren't essential functions to the wiki. HaloTalk 19:56, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
@merci As halo says they are optional, so we should be able to. If Wikia disagrees then we can use the obvious unanimous consensus here, coupled with our considerable size - in terms of pages, page views, ad revenue, community, etc - and Wikia's 'trust' (or whatever you'd call it) in us to bend their ear and get our way, at least with something like this. The moving host thread may just help a little too, who knows. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 20:08, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Do we need a discussion? There was no consensus to add it in the first place, and it was just added to all wikis by the wikistaff. If they already do allow us to do it, and since there is no consensus to have them, I believe it is common sense to close this. bad_fetustalk 16:06, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. It's against the Terms of Use to remove features from pages via MediaWiki. Well, now I'm not sure. It depends on what the Terms of Use defines as a "core feature", which we are forbidden to alter/remove. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 19:47, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
sannse said in the irc the other day people don't have to have it but they want people to give it a go, so I'm pretty sure we are allowed to remove it. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 05:27, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Support - It seems to me to be spam, and just as useless as the message that pops up asking to improve on other "related" articles that have nothing to do with it. (The message I refer to either only appears for stubs or IPs, cannae mind which, and goes along the lines of "Can you improve: unrelated article 1, 2, 3) What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 18:42, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - __NORELATEDPAGES__ doesn't work, I put it on this revision and it's still there. And by the fact people have said "__NORELATEDPAGES__" without nowiki shows it doesn't work. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 18:50, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Looks like hell, useless, blah blah blah. --Aburnett(Talk) 19:25, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Support - As everyone else has said, useless, unattractive, intrusive, etc. Quest.png Morian Smith Saradomin crozier.png 02:18, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Strong Support - I don't see what the advantage of this, even from Wikia's perspective. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 19:45, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per Mero ----クールネシトーク 05:15, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Mero? where did he comment? and if you meant another Mero, who did you mean? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:01, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
You didn't get the joke... ----クールネシトーク 20:58, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Remove it remove it remove it remove it now now now now. Dumb addition, completely arbitrary. Why would I care about Tele Group Waterbirth or Lunar Home Teleport when I'm browsing the article on Miasmic Barrage? (I'm not making this up.) I can browse the wiki just fine for myself, thank you very much. Honestly, the first time I saw it about ten minutes ago I thought it was vandalism and got confused when I couldn't remove it. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 12:02, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I just saw this on the prom spear page and the sentences at the bottom weren't even complete sentences. This is complete garbage. Farming cape (t).png Lil cloud 9 Talk 12:26, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Better than Calculators/Charms to experience where its pulling the form code for the calc on Calculators/Slayer. "template = Slayer calculator form = slayerin result = slayerout param = ", yes very inviting. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 12:31, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
XD Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 12:33, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Some thoughts

I talked some to Cook and others on IRC, but to add more here:

This is an optional feature. That means it can be removed from the wiki on request. We ask that you don't use CSS, because that means we have no way of knowing where it's turned off and where it isn't, we can't get a proper understanding of whether readers are using it, and don't get to hear where editors are unhappy with how it works. (Remember we have about 180,000 wikis, we won't see all conversations by far!)

It's will also possible for any editor to remove the box from individual pages. There's a request in with the engineers to create __NORELATEDPAGES__ to allow it to be removed from a page (I think I said on IRC this was already in place, looks like I jumped the gun there, sorry)

The way this works is to look for multiple matching categories. So if you have two characters who use a tool in a certain area with a specific hat on (can you tell I don't play Runescape? ;) ... and so they are in the same categories for those three aspects, they will likely appear on each other's pages. This is automatically generated in the way that many special pages are, the difference is that this is shown where people will see it!

In the case of a couple of examples from above: Swan Song and Do No Evil and both categorized as "quests" and "master quests". Miasmic Barrage is only in one category, so the match is to random pages from "Category:Spells". The more you categorize the better the matches become

What we found on test wikis was that readers use this. Which we hope means that they stay on the wiki longer, and are more likely to become editors.

But, we are aware that it's not going to be right for everyone, so we can remove it if that's the decision here. But I would love for you to consider giving it a go for a couple of weeks... and to let me know more about where and why it doesn't work for you. That will help us learn more for the future :) Thanks all -- Sannse<staff /> (help forum | blog) 02:19, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

What I said on IRC still applies here; we have issues with how we structure our categories (we tend to categorize things by what they are instead of where/how they are used or something like that.) If we were going to make this work, we would have to completely reorganize our category tree to include things like categories for people in certain areas, items used in certain quests, or History that has things in common (for example, stone circle has little in common with The Great Carpet Crash of '76.) Right now, with a major update coming out that will consume us, I don't think we will have time to categorize things and this will continue to be something where things with little in common will be "related". Even if we did categorize everything in a way that would be advantageous to the RelatedPagesModule, it still seems like it would be a bit of a nuisance. No offense is meant, but it seems like sometimes what you find in your tests does not pan out in the "real world"; not to drag something entirely different into the conversation, but we've seen that with the less time spent on the site with Oasis. ʞooɔ 02:48, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
Yep, however much testing we do off-site and on a few test wikis, there are always differences when we move to releasing fully -- it's just not possible to fully duplicate the effect on 180,000 wikis with millions of edits. That's why the post-release work to look at actual numbers, the live testing, and the feedback we get is so important. (Also not to drag more in to a different conversation - it's all part of what we've been doing in the last month, with the new skin on all sites :)
I've flipped the switch and Related Pages is off here :) -- Sannse<staff /> (help forum | blog) 18:42, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - Wikia staff have disabled the related pages module on the wiki, so this thread has served its purpose. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 21:12, December 8, 2010 (UTC)