Forum:Regarding a Clan Chat administrator
I'd like to discuss a certain administrator in the clan chat: Degenret01 (known in-game currently as "MerryXmas 2U", previously "Sp0oky Gh0st"/"Ice Whiskey"). There have been previous incidents in the Clan Chat where users have privately messaged me concerning his behaviour, stating how he creates a negative atmosphere within the clan.
I'd like to apologise for how little evidence I have, but unfortunately I think this is something that needs to be addressed sooner rather than wait for another incident to happen. I have spoken with multiple clan members and they all agree that Degen tends to get aggressive against certain users, is very strict on 'his ways', and doesn't make the clan chat enjoyable at times. With another ongoing thread discussing the state of the clan chat, I deemed it best to make this thread now.
Incident #1 - 21/11/2018
This incident was later discussed in the rs admin cabal, and my issue here is (no longer) not with the comment Degen made, but his attitude towards the whole circumstance. As soon as I brought it to his attention, he immediately plays it off as if there's no issue, without explaining the nature of his 'joke', telling me to "pm me or stfu", as well as saying "you're fucking crazy". Little discussion was actually made about the incident, and it felt like he was just defending himself against me instead of discussing the situation as a whole.
I was not the only one upset by this (I was also PMed by another user in game about their feelings). It feels like there's a lack of trust between users in the clan - whether administrator or normal user - and with Degen.
Incident #2 - 22/12/2018
This happened yesterday. For context in these screenshots: Desert Sole is Clue Scrolls (his ironman), "Clue Scrolls" is currently on degen's ignore list (so he can only see Desert Sole's messages).
It was brought to me by more than one person (including another administrator) that Degen's behaviour here was not acceptable. He showed a lack of understanding the rules and clearly mistreated Clue Scrolls here (despite not even knowing Desert Sole was him). Because of how social RSW is, it's very important that heated discussions are put under some control. From what I understand, the discussion happening in the screenshots above were civil until it got to the discussion about "why conversations have their topics changed or stopped". In past instances (such as the one above), Degen easily gets heated about things and then gets annoyed when someone asks to stop a conversation getting heated.
In fact, Degen has stated before that he has multiple clannies (I believe he said around 4-5) on his ignore list. I'd like to remind you all about 5-x, a former admin of RSW, where he had put another admin on his ignore list and was ignoring other admins. He was swiftly de-admined. There may be a difference here in that Degen is also a wiki admin, but I wish to treat this within the Clan only. Instead of dealing with the situation, he just ignores those that speak out against him as if there's no problem at all.
Would Degen pass an RfCCA today? I would never expect any administrator to behave like this, so my proposal is that Degen is de-admined from the Clan Chat.
Comment - Oh wow...
Comment - I would like to hear Degen's current opinion on these incidents. I do not think they are acceptable behaviour but I also understand that even the best of us can get irrational at times and I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's mostly a question of whether he agrees now that he did not behave appropriately and is working towards improving his attitude.
Also, I do not see why he would lose his CC admin rank specfically. The reason we give that rank to all sysops on the wiki is simply because we expect anyone trusted with sysop tools to act appropriately as a clan admin. If the consensus is that he should not have the CC admin rank it seems natural to me his sysop tools should also be taken. With that said, I do not have a particular opinion until I hear what he thinks of the incidents now that some time has passed. bad_fetustalk 18:06, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- I am also interested in what he thinks of the incidents, and/or what he has to say, so that we can have both sides of the story/stories.
Comment - a few things:
- Not really a good way to handle things by creating thread just for this - much better to have someone like Gaz tell Degen to behave and not have ppl on ignore. Vast majority of wiki users don't care about cc drama, and it's a bad look
- Idk if this sort of convo (+the reaction to it) is a daily occurrence. But tbh it looks like things haven't changed much with the clan, it's still toxic and has plenty of backbiting over trivial things. Except now there's more e-lawyering and such instead of slurs that were common years ago. Clan members might think this is normal if they've only ever been in RSW, but it really isn't compared to basically all other clans. If this still is the case, it's probably not worth salvaging lol
- baby monkfish doo doo doo Shockstorm 23:09, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- oh ps, idk if Liquid was too busy dying to giant mole (:jokedog:), but someone like him/other leaders really should step in and tell ppl to take it to pms or something in this case Shockstorm 23:14, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- I spoke privately with Cam, Liquid, and Gaz prior to this thread's creation (deputy owners + owner), asking them to deal with the situation officially (either a warn, de-admin, etc). We all agreed it was better that this was an open discussion, so I created a thread with their permission. We have had plenty of Yew Grove threads before about CC "drama".
- That's a horrible attitude to this problem - why would you give up hope on a clan? RSW is really a nice atmosphere to be in and there's some great, new people recently in the clan that have made it enjoyable. What do you mean it's "not worth salvaging"? Are you even in the clan? Do you know how most people act in the clan? This is literally two occurrences in the past month and you assume the whole clan is "toxic", especially when this literally revolves around one user.
- Again, I addressed this already in point one. I believe Liquid himself is away at the moment for Christmas-related reasons. Haidro 23:43, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- If a user has violated RS:UTP, then this may have more serious repercussions such as removal of admin tools. It is completely appropriate to discuss it here. cqm talk 02:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Soft support - is my current stance (may change should degen come and say his part), due to knowing what degen can be like, these screenshots, and having multiple clannies blocked. I don't think he's very representative of what a clan admin should be00:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Comment - As Haidro mentioned, we privately discussed this earlier today. I encouraged it be discussed here because:
- I haven't witnessed the conversations first-hand and dislike making decisions based on screenshots.
- CC Admin is a role that signfies community trust and the community should be able to decide if that trust has been violated.
- Discussing it privately does not solve the wider transparency problem that has come up several times in the past few weeks.
I have my own concerns about the use of the ignore list and some of the comments. However, I too would appreciate hearing the other side before saying anything else. cqm talk 02:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
I am going to address part of this now and the rest at a later time. How I spoke to Clue/Desert Sole was completely unacceptable. No one deserves to be spoken to that way, especially in a clan chat, and even more so by an admin. No matter the circumstances or history or any other factors, nothing excuses how wrong I was and I offer this public apology to him (I apologized to him last night but I think people need to see me owning it). Further, my outburst was negative to the cc as a whole and so I offer my apologies to all who were there and had to witness it. It was unacceptable and wrong. Degenret01 (talk)
Regarding the use of ignore, I must confess I do not see the problem. First, the reason. Some time ago Clue was doing a lot of treasure trails every day, and at the completion of each one, we would quick chat the totals for all treasure trails completed. Easy, medium, hard (pre elite days), an hour later easy, medium, hard, an hour later easy medium hard. Day after day, week after week. After week. Many weeks of this hourly spam. I asked if he could not do it, he said he needed to. So I did not mute him, kick him, or try to ban him. I did not start an argument, I added him to ignore. Sure, if there were some kind of cc problem and I needed to to take action how could I do so if one of the participants was ignored? Clue isn't a bad guy who seemed to need moderation, and there were always 2-4 other admins in chat. So me being able to moderate him is not an issue. I admit there may be some aspect of this I am overlooking, and welcome discussion of this point. Degenret01 (talk)
- If possible, could we have Clue Scrolls confirm or deny what Degenret01 said? Specifically, the part regarding if he did actually quick chat his treasure totals as much as Degenret01 said he did, and if Degenret01 did ask him not do to so.
Oppose - Guess I'll be the first to give a firm oppose. I do think that Degen handles some situations incorrectly, as do all of us sometimes, but I don't think these particular incidents are really justification for removing his clan chat admin rights, or wiki sysop rights for that matter. I think more of the problem here is the topics that are discussed within the clan chat that lead to arguments and confrontation, which like Gangsterls mentioned, are mostly religion and politics. Actively discouraging the discussion of these topics would probably go a long way towards avoiding situations where a joke goes down poorly, or someone gets offended. I know of a few occasions where political discussions have been had in Discord servers too, and guess what? People get offended because they disagree with eachother. It's better to nip the underlying cause of what's really going on here in the bud rather than removing someone's rights. This isn't to say that Degen hasn't been confrontational, but I don't really believe that people have made a firm effort to discourage or warn him about his actions. Jumping straight to a de-rank seems like a knee jerk reaction. jayden 17:35, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Comment – It's not often that I'm online at times when Degen and Hairdo are active so I haven't seen these incidents first hand. My general opinion is that Degen has strong opinions on things, particularly real life things, and tends to express them in no uncertain terms. That by itself isn't really an issue.
On the other hand it's not acceptable for anyone to be treated with disrespect. Comments like "who the fuck are you?" and "want to know how much I care about what you think?" are just not on. We have RS:UTP and RS:SAOW for good reason, they are values that all wiki users should live up to, especially those who are in positions of authority and trust.
I feel like Degen has had fair warning that other users have issues with his behaviour. As hairdo mentioned he raised concerns about the first incident with Degen via the private admin channel. The conversation was fairly confrontational from both sides. It would seem that Degen did not have a bad intention in his comment about monasteries, as it was intended to be a joke about females being historically banned from monasteries. This meaning appeared to be lost on at least 2 people who questioned what Degen meant in the cc, and as Hairdo rightly said in private conversation with Degen, the right thing to do would have been to explain what the intention behind the remark. Degen's response to this was that is was other people’s job to not take offense if they didn’t know what his comment meant, and that it wasn’t his job to educate people on the history of the world. It shouldn't take a thread suggesting rights be removed for someone to acknowledge criticism of their actions.
Per Chess, site admins are only automatically clan admins because it is assumed that site admins have the necessary trustworthiness and other qualities that they community expects. Therefore it would make sense that if the community decides that Degen is no longer meeting those standards that his site admin rights also be removed. My personal opinion is that this is the case and that both Degen's site admin and clan admin rights be removed.21:44, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Comment - I don't know much about Degen. So this will be very unbiased comment about this topic. As an administrator for a clan which is almost equal to the image of the clan and in this situation of the wiki, its not expected to have reactions like "who the f**k are you?" and "want to know how much I care about what you think?". I do get that he can get heated aswell, in the end you are a human. But as a representative of the clan he should keep his calm and react more maturely.
Also because I wasn't there at those moments and he did just agree it was unacceptable. He apologized publicly and privatly, which is very nice of him. I think we all have second chances and people are able to improve themselves.
P.S. I do not think his site admin should get removed, if his clan chat admin gets removed, as he will not get in contact directly with the community(as far as i know *.*). Please (talk) 00:44, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
Support - Revoke his cc adminship at least, I don't see issues him keeping his wiki tools if he has use for them. In general I don't think wiki adminship should automatically mean cc adminship for variety of reasons.
In the past 6 years I've been in wiki I have played on average 10 hours in a day, often during American timezones, so while I'm sure I haven't seen all he does in our cc, I've seen plenty enough.
If only it was these two incidents on his track record I might have no opinion on this matter, but right out of the top of my head I remember four other cases where he has shown disrespect towards our rules and/or our cc members, and as such it has reached the point where a few clan members (including me) feel uneasy in his presence.
I have not seen him turn down an argument he has been involved in, he easily gets heated and when he does, he has no regard to our rules or others feelings nor does he seem to make any attempt to chill down nor come to an agreement with related parties. Such behaviour is not acceptable for a clan member, and definitely not acceptable for an admin.
Regarding on how he has many people in his ignore list, I'm pretty sure he once mentioned how he had over ten clan members on his ignore list, as he has talked/advertised/boasted about how he easily he adds people there. Whilst ignoring people is not exactly bad practice, it undoubtly makes moderating chat harder for every active clan member there is, it also shows how he clearly doesn't like the people in our clan, and how he has no tolerance on seeing these people.
And frankly seeing how long these things have happened, how he still does the same things after all the times his bad behaviour has been pointed out to him, and how these incidents still keep happening, I have no trust on him to suddenly change his leaf. Even if he did change his behaviour I'd rather see him earn our trust back and then do a new RfA.01:57, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
Closed - Degen has contacted me and requested that he be de-ranked. I am closing this discussion as the main proposal has been sorted. There is additional discussion regarding his site admin tools; however, a desysop discussion should happen in its own thread. --LiquidTalk 02:59, 25 December 2018 (UTC)