Forum:Pronunciation guides

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This thread was archived on 4 July 2012 by Liquidhelium.

I would like to clarify the policy on pronunciation guides for articles.

Someone involved in an "edit war" with me asserts that "pronunciation guides are for words that were made up by Jagex. As visage is a real word, it does not need a guide on this page". I call bullshit for two reasons.

First, there doesn't seem to be any policy on when articles should get pronunciation guides. If there is, it's not at the style guide, [[RS: PRON]], [[RS: PRONUNCIATION]] or Pronunciation guide—any of the places it should logically be. So this prescriptive assertion seems to lack backing of policy.

Second, and more importantly, it's completely false.

All of these articles have pronunciation guides for words that are real words, words that Jagex did not make up. Using the above logic, they should all have their pronunciation guides removed.

But that would be stupid. Most of these words have obscure pronunciations in English. The same goes with "visage". The word is fully anglicized, but many people try to Frenchify the "age" part (probably in line with other more-French words like "dressage" or "corsage"), or just mispronounce it in general.

Removing pronunciation guides for real English words would be deliberately unhelpful, because we'd have people who didn't know any better running around saying things like "skimmitar" or "adzee". The fact that some editor at some point took the time to put the pronunciation guides in indicates that they thought that other readers would not know the correct pronunciation, and that it was worth having in the article. This wiki exists to organize and disseminate knowledge. In cases where there is clear potential for confusion or ignorance on the part of a reader, it should always be the policy of this wiki to endeavor to provide information rather than withhold it.

The editor referenced above continued: "If people really want to kno[w how a real word is pronounced, they can look it up in a dictionary.]" (bracketed content mine, based on what I assume the editor was going to say given the context, because they apparently don't know edit summaries have character counts.) This is also shoddy reasoning. Several words on my list of real English words are obscure in English, and many other real words Jagex uses are also obscure. Many players will not know, necessarily, that "adze" or "visage" are normal English words, instead of words Jagex made up, so they won't have any reason to check a dictionary. So they'll continue doing things like rhyming "visage" with "rage" because they didn't check a dictionary. (It is also worth noting that the assertion that players will check dictionaries is pretty thoroughly refuted by the evidence of editors changing the pronunciation on this page to pronunciations that are demonstrably erroneous.)

Accordingly, I move that we establish a policy on providing pronunciations. Articles on words for which Jagex has offered a pronunciation will contain guides to those pronunciations, much like Al Kharid and Port Phasmatys currently do. Furthermore, words which are real English words, but may be reasonably mispronounced by the common encyclopedia-browser will also have pronunciation guides. Words which fall in this latter category can be established by ad-hoc consensus.

(wszx) 21:08, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment - my opinion, as I have stated before, is that pronunciation guides for real words are pointless. They are inevitably biased towards one or two particular dialects/accents (usually "British" and "American"). If we had to pick one, I would prefer it to be the "British" pronunciation (which is a pile of crap; there is no more a single British accent than there is a single American accent) as opposed to the "American" one, since RuneScape is a British-made and run game, but if the "British" pronunciation was used, it would be constantly changed to "American", as the floor numbers frequently are in other articles. Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 21:26, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

The pronunciations Jagex gives all suffer from that bias. So why do you countenance them? (wszx) 21:35, June 22, 2012 (UTC)
Because those are the only sources of pronunciation we have for them. And as Cam has said below, they are not even consistent with it; they appear to have been decided upon by Jmods with different accents.
But that would be stupid. Most of these words have obscure pronunciations in English. The same goes with "visage". The word is fully anglicized, but many people try to Frenchify the "age" part (probably in line with other more-French words like "dressage" or "corsage"), or just mispronounce it in general.
And here is why I was objecting to it; how you, as an American, pronounce the word visage is not how I, as an English person, pronounce visage. To me it does rhyme with dressage and corsage. While looking to see what Google said on this subject, I found this site that you may find interesting. Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 11:49, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
It pretty clearly says that's the pronunciation in French. In English, no dictionary I have found, either American or British, lists any pronunciation other than vɪzɪdʒ. You can pronounce it other ways if you'd like, but you'd be wrong. (wszx) 18:05, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
So... you pretty much ignored 75% of that page then? Nice to know that. Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 18:17, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
Two of the English pronunciations are vɪzɪdʒ, two are other things. The only one with a vote is vɪzɪdʒ, and that's a user-submitted website anyway. You can take your cues from random people on the internet all you like. (wszx) 18:22, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
I'll take my cues from the people around me, who rhyme visage with dressage and corsage. Not everyone that comes to this website will pronounce things the same way'. This is the point you are not getting. People will pronounce things the way they are taught and used to. Having the supposedly correct one on the page will not do anything to stop that. Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 18:30, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
(ec)As cute as this conversation is, it's not what this thread is about. If you want to talk more about how vɪzɪdʒ is right and however you say it is wrong, we can go to our talk pages. But let's focus. (wszx) 18:31, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Questions -

  1. Before taking a stand about transcribing pronunciation, we should know which accent the words should be pronounced with. There are many accents on both sides of the debate. So which accent do we choose? The one Jagex uses? If so, which one is that? (Or, more precisely, which English accent has been used for words already on the official wiki's Pronunciation Guide page?) If not, is it the one used by the majority of the readers? If so, again, which one is that?
  2. How do we transcribe pronunciation for every reader to know how a word is pronounced in that accent? "Ranarr" being pronounced "RAH-nar" would not convey whether the final 'r' is silent, for example. The official wiki's page is guilty of this lack of specification for Karamja's kah-RAM-jar. Perhaps IPA?
 a proofreader ▸ 

00:10, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Aren't all r's at the end of a word silent? User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 06:38, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
Tractor. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 06:42, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
That proves my point. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 08:52, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
Like the people above said, it depends on the accent. Some pronounce it like "trackteh", some pronounce it like "track-tor", pronouncing the r (like we do in Dutch). So, no, not all "r"s at the end of words are silent, they are just silent in some accents. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 12:20, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
But RS and this wiki being written in English and not American, we don't have to take that into account. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 17:08, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
Unless they're from Somerrset. --Henneyj 20:48, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I'd rather nuke the pronunciations on all articles. Jagex make up pronunciations for existing words, for example Prifddinas. Jagex's pronunciation is "prif-DIN-ass". As someone who studied welsh in school, although not a fluent speaker, I know that f makes a v sound, whilst dd makes a sort of dth sound.

The main problem with those names that Jagex made up themselves is the room for deviation of the pronunciations provided. Jagex could have used the international phonetic alphabet to avoid this issue, but seeing as different JMods use different pronunciations, it was probably a waste of time to create a guide in the first place. cqm 00:20,23/6/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

Question: - why are you so obsessed with adding the pronunciation of visage to the page anyway? If RS had voice-chat capability built in I could understand this a little bit, but it doesn't so why would you think having pronunciation guides for real words is necessary? You can't hear these people talking, so why does it bother you if they don't know how to say a word or two? Small recharge gem.png AnselaJonla Slayer-icon.png 18:30, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

One possible answer is YouTube videos. You often hear a commentator talking about an update, or an item.  a proofreader ▸  22:48, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Comment: - No pronunciation of any commonly mis-pronounced word is butchered enough to the point where no one understands what is meant. Of everything you listed, only one of them am I, as a well studied engilsh pesron, not able to use common sense to utter properly: mjolnir (mi•jol•nur???). And if I were curious as to how to say it properly, I see a {{WP Also}}.

As RuneScape is a British game, and we are obliged to use the British everything, I can see pronunciation guides as detrimental to the community. Yes it's Farfetch'd, but imagine everyone adhering to a single pronunciation and bashing on those who mispronounce. (to use a phrase loved by one of those YouTubers of whom Proof speaks) At the end of the day: we can't force upon people what's right. And before you bring it up: we use colour instead of color because that's how it appears in game. Now you bring up voice acting: still, that's just one person talking; an entire pronunciation guide cannot be based off of one, single voice. The difference is: Spelling is solid, speech is not.

The two arguments I see for the pronunciation guide are:

  1. Words which have many accepted pronunciations
  2. Simple mistakes that I myself facepalm when I hear 'em; i.e. Skimitar

On another note: since when is Glouph a real word? He actually does deserve a pronunciation key. Unless I'm wrong, in which case glouph sounds like a type of soup.

My dad says Spatuler, just like Mr. Krabs! MolMan 11:17, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "visage" settled once and for all - To close this stupid debate, the following statement is true, confirmed by ALL of the English teachers at school and our neighbours, who moved here from an English speaking country a month ago. The pronunciation vɪzɪdʒ (which rhymes with quidditch) is completely wrong. The pronunciation of the word visage is like a French person would say it, ergo veh-SAHZH, not visidj. In no way is the latter correct. HOWEVER, the word "envisage" (which is basically to give a visage to something) IS pronounced as envɪzɪdʒ and en-vuh-SAHZH would be wrong. But when speaking of the noun 'visage', meaning face, the only correct pronunciation is the Frenchified one, not vɪzɪdʒ which is never correct. Hope this helps. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:35, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

I asked Ansela above not to make this about the pronunciation of the word, because it's not. This is a general proposal about pronunciation guides. (wszx) 18:47, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - I, too, have been in an edit war over a pronunciation (adze). I wanted to remove it and someone else wanted to keep it. Tbh the argument got really heated, to the point where others had to step in, but the pronunciation stayed. Now then, I oppose because of all these discussions above have made the following things clear:

  • Jagex isn't consistent with what accent they use
  • Everyone who reads the wiki speaks with different accents and thus pronounces things differently

No one has answered Proof's first point about what accent we should choose. One of the reasons for this thread is to educate people on how to say something, but that is just not possible. There are too many languages and accents out there. If someone cared enough they could search it up. We can't help it if they pronounce something incorrectly, according to our accent, on a YouTube video. I think we should remove all non-Jagex-approved pronunciations.

For the record, corsage and visage do not rhyme for me. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 23:14, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

My opinion (I don't know if it's a support or oppose) - This is what a pronounciation guide on an article should look like:

Jagex's pronounciation: This is the pronounciation listed on Jagex's official pronounciation guide (if there is one).

Alternate pronounciations: A list of 2 or 3 pronounciations that are frequently used by players. This would usually include both "British" pronounciations (even though that is most likely the Jagex official pronounciation) and an "American" pronounciation.

Okay, so the above is what it should look like in my opinion.Defence-icon.png99 i fail Attack-icon.png 23:40, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Closed - There is no consensus to implement the proposal. This means that while pronunciation guides of real words are not officially sanctioned, they are not explicitly disallowed either. While there may be something to be said for disallowing pronunciation guides in general, that will have to be settled in a future thread. Until then, try to use common sense. Pronunciation guides for RuneScape-exclusive terminology will remain as it does now. --LiquidTalk 19:54, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

And for the record, visage does not rhyme with corsage for me neither. --LiquidTalk 19:55, July 4, 2012 (UTC)