Forum:Our images and other fansites

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This thread was archived on 30 November 2010 by Liquidhelium.

A few days ago, in the CC, somebody (I think it was Cook) mentioned that another fansite, RuneShark, was using images that we'd collected from Myface on their site. If you want to see proof, compare the image on their Chaos Dwarf hunting page with our Chaos Dwogre image. BEFORE ANYONE SAYS I'M GETTING WORKED UP OVER NOTHING, THAT IS NOT THE SOLE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!

I don't think they realised that our images are under CC-BY-SA, so they have to mention that we own the images. Unfortunately, they haven't said that anywhere. I'd like to avoid this happening again, and I propose that we add the following to all File: pages:

All images on the Runescape Wiki are under the CC-BY-SA Copyright License (see RuneScape:Copyrights for details)

Discussion

Support - Do we want other fansites using our work without citing us? Real Nub 17:39, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

I think Cook contacted them warning them that they couldn't legally use any of our images without giving us credit. But of course we don't want anyone to use this wiki's images without first citing us. Suppa chuppa Talk 17:42, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - They seem to be using all of our images, not just the myface ones. Check their Slayer skill guide. It's just ridiculous, but if they had any common sense they would realise that their actions are not legal/right, and adding this little line won't help imo. LordDarkPhantom 17:48, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Please don't make this into anything bigger than it need be. I don't think they knew what they were doing went against our copyright policy, and it looks like they are going to comply with it. Also, the images were nit solely from Myface; in fact, the chaos dwogre picture was one I took and (as far as I can tell) I am not part of Project Myface. RuneShark is not some enormous fansite, and there's no reason we need to do anything to them beyond asking them to attribute or remove the images. I think it was an honest mistake and there was no ill will involved.

On to your proposal; I don't have a problem with it, although I don't think many people will notice it (I assume that most of the time that people use our images they don't actually go to the file page.) Also, that would not be to all images, there are plenty of images that use a different license or are {{Fair use}}.

This is not the first time that fan sites have used our images (RuneHQ used a picture of the Lumbridge Sage on their main page a few months ago), but I don't think that many people actual view the file page, where I assume the license warning would be found. Most people find the images either by looking at the actual page, or by Google Images (or something of the sort.) ʞooɔ 20:08, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realise that they'd used that many images...

I did say at the top, and I will say again, RuneShark is not the main topic here. I'm not trying to make some huge deal out of this, I only even mentioned it because the proposal is completely out of context otherwise. I suppose that the rest of what you've said is right though, we can't enforce the copyright further than some warning messages, but we can at least try. After all, the only way that you can see the copyright information is either by going to RS:CR or by editing a page and looking at the text underneath the edit window. Currently, we don't have anything like the text on articles for images. That's the main reason why I'm suggesting this. Real Nub 20:36, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Are you wanting to add a watermark to our images or a thing at the bottom of the file page? For watermark: Strong oppose - Ruins the image. For text at bottom: Oppose - We get 50+ image each day, having this happen would be a continuing long task that is in the end pointless as they will just run in and grab and not care for our policies. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 20:23, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

I imagine that this would mean a warning on the file page, not a watermark. And we could add something to MediaWiki:License to that effect. ʞooɔ 20:27, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
No, I never even thought of a watermark. I'm proposing that the page that the File: page has the line of text. Real Nub 20:36, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
Oh... and forgot about the MediaWiki page... Support. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 20:45, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Support adding a copyright notice to the MediaWiki page. --Andorin (Talk) (Contribs) 21:05, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Could we have a bot do this? Matt (t) 21:53, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Because it'd be stupid to oppose this. Matt (t) 22:04, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - We shouldn't lower the quality of our images with unrelated text. Adding that text to every image will lower the visibility of what is actually important. We can deal with other people improperly using our images on a case-by-case basis and show them the rule book. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 22:10, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

I do support adding the notice to the MediaWiki page as Andorin suggested.. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 22:47, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Ruining all of our images sounds like a great idea to me. Seriously, I don't understand why anyone would oppose. ajr 22:39, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

  • Just a note, but we can't really claim any sort of copyright on any images we take of RS, as we actually don't own the images. We cannot license something we don't own. (As another note, {{Fair use}} should probably be protected.) (wszx) 00:56, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support - ...adding it the the MediaWiki text. As long as it isn't obscure and in -3pt font. Of course I strongly oppose having a watermark or anything of such which will destroy the quality of images. 222 talk04:47, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Actually, for the whole time I've been using this wiki, I've always been surprised that there are no copyright notices in the descriptions of images. Wikipedia, for example, requires that every image has some description of copyright, so there's usually one of a variety of templates below the image. As far as I know, everything here is either CC-BY-SA automatically, or is a screenshot and therefore belongs to Jagex (in whole or in part). I think the MediaWiki text should inform anyone looking that the image is CC-BY-SA, and linking back to RS:COPY as suggested. Also, the notice might point out that screenshots of RuneScape contain material owned by Jagex; many of our images are not screenshots, but sticking that into the standard "Image Copyright notice" would probably be a good idea. OriginaLuigI 08:03, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - So if someone does copy one of our images, what does happen?   Swizz Talk   Events!   11:13, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

We ask them to remove it or attribute it to us. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 11:32, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
And if they refuse?   Swizz Talk   Events!   15:59, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
We take over all of their bases. --Iiii I I I 16:16, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Per all.   Swizz Talk   Events!   14:13, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support MediaWiki addition - Per all. (davelopo) 15:51, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - We really haven't been taking the attributions or whatever too seriously, perhaps this is a good wake-up call to start doing so. I support having our notices be more prominent. Who ruined the Chinchompa image, BTW? That was a little crazy. --TheLastWordSword 21:49, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Copying our materials without obtaining permission or attributing is intellectual theft I believe. Adding the notice will also void their arguments of ignorance. What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 23:00, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Support Media-Wiki proposal - This will make it clearer for people to see instead of that small thing under the editing screen. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 01:35, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

For the copyright part... - We can send a Special:Contact to the Wikia team and get RuneShark shut down unless they give us attribution. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16) 跟我谈话 15:47, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

>_> This really didn't need a new section so I've made it a comment - [Pharos] iPhone Edit 15:54, November 14, 2010 (UTC)
Please stop messing around with comments. --中亚人/中亞人 (Chinasian/Jeffwang16) 跟我谈话 16:30, November 14, 2010 (UTC)
Wikia doesn't shut down other sites. They don't and won't as these images can be easily removed and only Jagex has the proper authority to do so. In the words of Robert, "don't get your panties in a bunch over this issue, and there is no liability of any kind that we can do enforce "copyright" from things copied from this website in the first place. Exclusive use images simply can't be used on this wiki." (1) Ryan PM 15:45, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Darn, I was liking that idea, too. If the Wikias can't or won't enforce any sort of rights, what is to protect our hard work (and ad income!)? That seems like plenty of motivation for the Wiki-gods to start thinking about cracking down, doesn't it? --TheLastWordSword 20:34, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - This won't accomplish anything as anyone who wants to use our images won't be deterred by a copyright notice. Have you ever used an image with a copyright notice in a presentation or school assignment without attributing credit? Have you given it not a single second of thought no matter what it said under the image or at the bottom of the page? So will sites like runeshark or whatever. Furthermore it already says that all content of the wiki is copyrighted under cc by sa, albeit not in a flashy or attention grabbing way - as it should be in my opinion. Anyone who gives a crap about copyright (hint: runeshark doesn't) will look for posted copyright notice or visit RS:COPY. They won't need a flashy copyright notice. The only people who don't notice the existing copyright notice are the ones who don't care about copyright and therefore will ignore a bigger notice. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 03:15, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

From my discussions with RuneShark, it seems that they didn't realize that the images were copyrighted. ʞooɔ 03:23, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
I'm inclined to believe that, seeing as how, if they did know they were copyrighted, but ignored that fact and used it anyways, when you asked them they would have said "yea, but I didn't think we'd get caught". kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 09:29, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Neuteral - I have to see everyone has a valid argument, but I do have to agree with what Lord Wiggles stated. Achievements Coelacanth0794 Talk Contribs 03:21, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Its a small thing which they may or may not see. Either way, it cant hurt to add it.
And if they add to their sites without attribution Q and TLUL will rain down upon them in a godly firestorm of PWN. - [Pharos] 07:33, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Psycho. bad_fetustalk 13:51, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Psycho. HaloTalk 13:54, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - Well, I believe that it's not a bad idea, warning people about it, but still... We wouldn't want to wreck our (if they even ours) by throwing watermarks all over them, would we? Jackadamsjda 20:18, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

It's not a watermark. Real Nub 21:02, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Support - We took the time to take/make the images here, so other people shouldn't use them without our permission. Axela40 21:51, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

They don't need our permission. ʞooɔ 21:55, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't want to turn this into something like Wikipedia's File namespace peppered with copyright notices. I think that it's fine if we just inform the noncompliant fansites of our policy. I'm sure most of them simply did not realize what our policy was, similar to RuneShark. --LiquidTalk 23:38, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - Just warn them, don't ruin our own wiki by adding such a notice on all imagesfile pages, just because other people do things. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 07:31, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Having reread my proposal, I realise that it may have been a little misleading, and I never wanted to add to the files themselves, only the File: pages. I have changed it accordingly. Real Nub 17:24, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

I understood that, it is just that I wasn't clear. It is not your fault. I corrected it. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 19:49, November 18, 2010 (UTC)
Don't see how a line of text on certain pages ruins the wiki... Real Nub 19:59, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - These are images taken by the players for everyone, not just for the people who see THE (not ours) images, because if anything, the images belong pretty much to Jagex and any copyright should be given to them; RuneScape is already copyrighted to if we Copyright images of RuneScape we (The wiki) are stealing content, the best thing they could do would be "The images were taken by players and uploaded to the RS Wiki and we thank them for them. The images are from RuneScape wich is copyright of Jagex LTD." or something like that. ScionCrush 03:10, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Have you read RS:COPY, last section? Although the game is jagex's, the images are ours. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 13:51, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
No they aren't. If that's what RS:COPY says, then RS:COPY is wrong. (wszx) 17:14, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
Well, Jagex may own the copyrights on the content, but WE took the images, not them. Wszx, that's like saying that if you take a picture of someone's puppy, that picture belongs to the puppy's owner, and not to the person that took the photo. Real Nub 19:59, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
Your analogy is flawed. If the puppy is copyrighted, then you do not own the copyright to the picture. In this case, the puppy is copyrighted. (wszx) 23:46, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
Wszx, the point Joey is making is that the licence that contributions made to the wiki are under states that if they are used on another website, a notice must be put giving credit to the wiki as a whole. They are the pictures that we took. Matt (t) 03:11, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
I can put a license on some picture I took of an image from the AP. That doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me, because I am in no position to license it in the first place. We are in no position to tell anyone what to do with screenshots we take of RS, because we don't own them. Text we can license because it's our own work. These images are not. (wszx) 05:07, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
  • "That doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me" They do with us.
  • "We are in no position to tell anyone what to do with screenshots we take of RS" Yes we are.
  • "because we don't own them" Yes we do.
  • "Text we can license because it's our own work. These images are not."
When re-using the wiki's content that has been released Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike License, you must provide credit to the authors either by...
RS:COPY
Matt (t) 06:01, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
Precisely. If Jagex had taken the screenshots and sent them to us, then no, we wouldn't own them. However, since WE took them, the screenshots belong to US. Oh, and PS:
All contributions to the RuneScape Wiki are considered to be released under the CC-BY-SA (see RuneScape:Copyrights for details)
— Found at the bottom of editing boxes.

Real Nub 08:11, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

You both have no idea what you're talking about. You can quote policy over and over but if the policy is wrong, it's not going to make you right. There is difference between actually capturing an image and owning the rights to it. (wszx) 16:49, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
If a policy is wrong, discuss changes to it on a separate yg thread. Matt (t) 19:46, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
Look, I'm going to contact Jagex to settle this. However, I for one really don't think that using our images without attributing us as a source is acceptable, whether we own the images or not. If it was 1 image, I wouldn't care, because it was probably plucked from Google or Picsearch, but when entire guides are based on our images, that's just taking the proverbial biscuit. Real Nub 17:31, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
I have written the letter, please read it and leave me a message on my talk page if you feel that you can suggest improvements. Real Nub 17:43, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Runescape screenshots are copyright Jagex, Ltd. If fansites are taking Runescape screenshots off the wiki, you're powerless to stop them as you do not own the screenshots, Jagex do. Even if wiki members took the screenshots themselves, it doesn't mean they own them - they didn't create the runescape graphics. Avp909 Talk | Website 16:51, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, we didn't directly take the images from cache or something, we shot them. That makes them ours. bad_fetustalk 17:28, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
edit conflict x2 The point of this thread is to make it clearer that other sites can't use our images without attributing us, whether as owners OR as a source. Real Nub 17:31, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Even if they are copyright (which I believe they are not considered to be)[[1]], their use would still be covered under US fair use copyright law [[2]] as the wiki is hosted in the US. Summoning-icon.png To3cutt3r Talk HS Log Summoning-icon.png 17:27, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Comment I find the most relevant litigation in US copyright code is here which states "The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material." That is to say, while we cannot copyright the images as fully ours, we can copyright what we have done to the preexisting image. So while we are powerless to stop someone from taking an identical screenshot in RuneScape, we can stop someone from outright taking the image we have hosted here, as the image contains work done which is copyright protected. Thus they cannot use the images we did work on and uploaded without attribution, but they can freely take a new screenshot in an identical pose. While that's duplicating work we have done, it is not copyright infringement unless they actually take the work we did. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 20:35, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - No consensus. --LiquidTalk 02:13, November 30, 2010 (UTC)