Forum:Optimal vs Entry PVM Guides
I recently seen a post on Reddit regarding the strategy guides on the Wiki can often be off-putting for a lot of new players because of the equipment guides and setups looking very much out of reach and making the whole event seeming much more overwhelming than they actually need to be, and wondered if this is something that should be looked into.
I don't claim to be outstanding at PvM, but especially with GWD1 bosses, the guides for K'ril and Graardor seem to be far over the top for a player looking to get into it, for example the equipment for K'ril and magic mentioning the most effective being Tectonic and a Praesul wand - many other pages just having the generic most to least optimal equipment requirements, rather than explaining that at a base level you'd need T70+ gear will be more than sufficient to get a handful of kills at these bosses with next to no mechanics to learn.
I didn't really know the best way to get started with this myself.
- Keep them as they are.
- Create a new page for each boss - a beginner / starting out guide.
- Add more information onto current strategies for starting out.
Support 2 - Per TzTok-Gas. 14:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Comments/Oppose 2 - I think most of our PvM guides need a huge rewrite for the reasons you mentioned. For starters, I'd want to see less fluff. I don't care that K'ril is known for its subjugation drops. I'm here to read the strategy guide, not information about the boss I can read on the main page.
However, I don't like the idea of splitting up the guide into a beginner guide and then an advanced guide. The only variable in boss guides are the recommended gear and skills (and sometimes abilities). The mechanics (arguably the most important thing) are the same, so we'd be duplicating information for no reason. I've never liked our tables of gear, ranging from best to worst, because they always get outdated and it can deceive low level players that they need high level gear for easy bosses. And they're also the same on most guides - literally just a table of gear for a combat style. I don't really like the idea of splitting the guides up into two because where do you draw the line with gear? And then how do we cater for ironmen? I'd love to see way less emphasis on gear requirements in our guides (however, we should still mention niche gear choices, like a salve ammy or DFS, etc). Unfortunately, I don't know a better solution.
The best way to learn the boss isn't to read a guide but to actually kill the boss. I do like the idea of having an "advanced tips" header in our guides, that players can read after they've attempted a few kills of the boss. I don't think we need to split it up into an entirely separate guide. Haidro 15:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Oppose 2/Comment- Each of the current guides are cluttered beyond all reason by basically the same tables (Gear/Perks/Relics), there's no need to duplicate each of those with minor changes.The Araxxor guide has a good starting point with recommended presets for beginner/advanced items, though it's a bit wonky.
But I support a heavy culling on the amount of non-strat information on the pages, remove the generic gear/perk and relic tables and just add them if a certain item/perk, etc. is specifically useful for that encounter, e.g. the dragon slayer perk/ability for ed2. Streamline the pages into a short gear section then a basic overview of the mechanic and strategies for dealing them and then an advanced section for people who have grasped the basics. That's it. Trying to add everything just leads to cluttering and is a nightmare to keep updated. Srylius (talk) 15:56, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Support Haidro's idea - Per Hairdo and Sry.16:00, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Support Haidro's idea - Most of the gear suggestion boil down to "Use power melee/range/mage power armour". I think a guideline lowest tier would be useful but may be too subjective. I suggest that links to Armoury could be used to help future proof equipment suggestions, if/when a filter for power/tank armour is added, however the query limit is a potential issue. Robert571 (talk) 16:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think a lowest/minimum tier recommendation is fine, as for the subjectivity I would use a combination of IM progression and what's considered budget options with an artificial limit (like 25M or something). Srylius (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Support Haidros - I agree that it can probably all stay on 1 page, just add sections for beginner and advanced stuff, and perhaps also afk type things on bosses etc where that's applicable. It would also be nice if the sections listed suggested levels/pots to use. Also agree that we should probably just make a series of pages that are the equipment tables by style (and 2x, 2h, shield, tank vs power etc) and just link to those pages (specific sections based on what's best for that monstes) dito for perks. There will probably be certain exceptions where there is some reason to use a specific setup, and in any case special gear (salve amy, only certain weapons can be used etc) should be listed. I also think the inventory parts could be a lot better, (probably also needs to be split between beginner/normal/advanced/afk), especially with regards to aprox how many of each to bring. Just my comments from someone who does basically no pvm beyond semi-afk slayer tasks.16:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Extra proposal - I'd like to see a specific section called "First kill", which tells you basic information about the boss as well as information that only applies on the first kill. For example, for Dagannoth Kings it's recommended you attune a boss portal to them, but this requires 1 kc, so to get to the lair you can either buy a tablet, or run there (ironman). I think this will also help filter out super advanced tips for people that only want one kill count for reaper. So overall, there should be two headers "First kill" and then "Further tips". Haidro 03:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Support Hairdo - For some reason, a complete rewrite of the entire page didn't seem to enter my mind as a option of choice, but definitely feel like this is the route we should go down. With the first kill guide, a section for 'Getting there' would be the easiest option, in the same way it is on pages for Menaphos or other areas, and War's Retreat being the last on the list with the mention of 1 KC and the cost to switch.
Also, rather than creating a 'gear' section for BiS items for each boss, would it be more efficient to just have a link to a page in the same way higher ranged weapons use Comparison of high-level ranged weapons - when a new BiS item comes out, rather than having to go through each strategy guide, you just have to make changes on one? TzTok-Gas TM 10:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Support - Per Haidro & Srylius. A rewrite is needed to declutter and maintain more relevant information.08:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Comment & generally support - Since the PvME collab, I've always had the view that we should have more than just the one guide for PvM stuff. In my head that was always along the lines of:
- Minimum gear/stats/strategy to get a singular kill
- BONUS: gear suggestions for a spooked hardcore ironman to get confidence that they won't die instantly while also not risking too much
- Gear/stats/strategy to comfortably repeatedly kill the boss (camping the boss if that's applicable)
- BONUS: ironman friendly alternatives, especially for lower bosses
- Strategy/gear to push for best kill times (max stats assumed) - the PvME way
Comment & support - Agreed with Gaz Lloyd. Certain bosses can be killed using different methods and in those cases it makes sense to split gear. For example general graardor can be killed with way lower gear if you choose to kite him compared to if you face tank him. Or gregorovic can be afked which requires higher gear than if you fight him actively. 00:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Support Srylius & proposal Heavily agree with decluttering. Vindicta's strategy page to me is a good example. I went ahead and tried to rewrite and declutter Vindy's page. EDIT: Finished the draft version: https://runescape.wiki/w/User:Hardcheeze/Testexamplevindystrats#Inventory%20(optional) let me know what you think! It should be more realistic and to-the-point imo Hardcheeze EDITEDIT: Did a similar thing for Helwyr! https://runescape.wiki/w/User:Hardcheeze/Drafthelwyrstrats Hardcheeze (talk) 20:38, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- I really like the use of tabbers here. I'm not sure this same structure could be adapted in every boss guide but this is the right step. Haidro 23:45, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- This looks great. Seems hard to adapt for group bosses with several roles. But I think this would work for most solo bosses. 02:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Closed - there is not support to split the current guides into optimal/entry level versions. There is agreement that the current guides need to be "decluttered" and rewritten to place less emphasis on gear requirements, and more emphasis on the specific strategies and any unique gear that is required for a particular boss. There is a suggestion that equipment recommendations by style could be hosted in a central location to reduce the maintenance burden, and that each guide could point to section of that page. There is also a suggestion that pages should include a "first kill" section, standardish section and optimal section. Both of these are good ideas to work with to progress this as a project.14:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)