Forum:Of Userpages and Politics

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This thread was archived on 11 August 2009 by Azaz129.

Bonjour, Byte here with another edition of "things that get annoying." Today's issue is politically and religiously geared userpages. I agree that people should be open to expression and put whatever on their userpages, but I think we should draw the line somewhere around these and similar topics. I have nothing against the two topics, but I think we should disallow these from being used as personal identifiers, similarly to how we discourage of such as it tends to lead to nothing but flaming and people turning against each other.

The problem doesn't lie in the topics themselves, but rather in the way that people today seem to believe that somebody who disagrees with them is immediately against them. For community's sake, it's probably best to separate RSWikia from politics and religion. -Byte_Master bytesig2.png bytesig3.png 19:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

READ BEFORE POSTING
  • Try to remain civil, as the sensitivity of this topic may frustrate some users.
  • If you do not have anything of constructive value to add to the discussion, simply do not post.
  • Use reasoning that is validated by itself, not by outside information, for example: rebuttals such as "freedom of speech" do not apply, and are not valid reasoning because this is not the United States of America, this is the Runescape Wiki, we do not have this amendment and some modicum of censorship does apply here.
  • This discussion is not targeted at anybody, not the Republicans, Democrats, Christians, Muslims or anybody else. Do not assume this is directed at you.
  • Avoid ad hominems. Do not direct your rebuttals at any individual person. Please direct them at what the person is saying. We are debating the ideas, not the people behind them.


Oppose - If I want to post what my political and religious views are on my userpage just incase anyone is wondering what they are, I should be able to. Maybe having stuff like "CONVERT NAO" shouldn't be allowed, but just stating how you feel about something should be allowed.

InstantWinstonDragon 2h sword old.pngold edits | new edits

20:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Support - I know what it's like to be offended by something, so I think religion and political views should be allowed on userpages as they are allowed anywhere else on this wiki. ShinyUnown T | C | E 20:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per Winston FredeTalk 20:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per all. We should be able to express our views as long as they are not directed badly towards someone and are not pushed upon us. - TehKittyCatTalk Wikian-Book 21:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - I agree with the opposes above me. We're not telling anyone that they must follow our views; it's just what we think. If people are offended by our beliefs, then that means they're the ones who want to force people into believing their views because they think what we believe in is wrong. Not our problem.  Tien  21:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, there is a point when you do go too far, however, and you're no longer saying "these are my views" but more so saying "these views are obviously the right ones, look at this evidence here, here and here." -Byte_Master bytesig2.png bytesig3.png 22:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I didn't see the statement "these views are the right ones" anywhere on Azaz's page.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
You will when the video selection cycles back around. -Byte_Master bytesig2.png bytesig3.png 22:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
That is, if having pro-<insert party here> propaganda videos count. -Byte_Master bytesig2.png bytesig3.png 22:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Plus, if people see that what they voted for on the poll doesn't have many votes, they may get angry and start arguments. ShinyUnown T | C | E 23:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
@Byte - Everything thinks their views are right. You have to be able to support your views, and by supporting them you're essentially saying that you think they're right. It doesn't make sense to say, for example: "I don't know if my views are right or not, but I am against gun ownership." There's a difference between saying "My views are right, here's what I think" and "My views are right, and I'm going to force them on you."  Tien  23:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't see the difference when put like that. ShinyUnown T | C | E 23:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
"My views are right, here's what I think" - When put like this, you're stating your views and will most likely let the other person state his views without opposition.
"My views are right, and I'm going to force them on you" - When put like this, you're stating your views but will likely flame the other person when he states his views.
The first option is preferable, obviously, since it won't lead to incivility. We don't want people insulting each other for their views.  Tien  23:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Big fan of free speech here. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Tebuddy:
If you do not have anything of constructive value to add to the discussion, simply do not post.
...rebuttals such as "freedom of speech" do not apply...
Gosh, people should learn to read. ShinyUnown T | C | E 22:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Killr I don't appreciate that unnecessary outburst and post on my talk page. Free speech is at stake in this discussion, so unless you don't understand what freedom of speech is, then my comment is completely relevant. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 23:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
But it is valid - You may disagree Killr, but Tebuddy (and anyone for that matter) is certainly allowed to express his opinion on this matter. You don't get to decide, what's valid and what's not. Just because you've anticipated this argument against your proposal, doesn't mean you can dismiss it. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 00:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - If you may be offended by other peoples beliefs (I sure am in a few cases, but I will defend to the death their right to believe differently) then stay off peoples user pages. As long as it does not make it onto the mainspace or the YG, and stays on user pages and peoples talk pages, then I accept that people have the right to state what they want. It is part of learning acceptance of others. Its good for you, give it a shot.--Degenret01 23:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - per Tebuddy and Degenret. I also fondly exercise my right to free speech.--Quest point hood.png Bigm2793Talk Quest point cape.png 00:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - It's best our userpage is our own. I think politics and religion and such define as much who you are as where you work or what else your interested in. For some it is a defining characteristic. As per our User Treatment Policy, our users need to respect their page or their wish to post things like that.

Bonziiznob Talk

00:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - I think people should be allowed to respectfully express their opinions about religion and politics on their userpage. It is an opinion, that's all. As long as people are being respectful, and not taking it too far, I don't see a problem. I looked at the one page you cited, User:Azaz129, and I don't see anything even mildly offensive on it. This leads me to believe that this is not a significant concern to the wiki. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 00:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Seriously? Don't like, don't read. No one is forcing you to read their userpage. Now that's a throwing weapon!Doucher4000******r4000I'll eat you! 01:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - FREEDOM OF SPEECH!! --— Enigma 02:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Per D4k. Don't like it, don't read it. Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 02:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - for goodness sake, this shouldn't even be an issue. If it's my personal page then I am allowed to put whatever I want to put on it. I also find it ridiculous that you would try and use Azaz's user page as an example. He's clearly not trying to persuade anyone of anything, he is simply stating his views. Andrew talk 02:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Its kind of funny how many people here support freedom of speech considering several of the people that posted are opposed to swearing. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 04:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Irony. :D Santa hat.png Powers38 おはようヾ(´・ω・`) 05:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Interesting yet irrelevant. Andrew talk 06:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Support - how's this: Your userpage isn't supposed to be like a blog, is it? It's supposed to be information for users to know that can help them edit with you on the wiki, or something like that. So why would political and religious views fall into that category? Yes, freedom of speech, blah blah blah. But this really isn't the place for it 20px‎ Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 07:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's so much a problem with what users post as long as it is within our current policies with regards to say insults or porn or something along those lines. Politics and Religion is not so much an issue I feel. Users wishing to share their views or beliefs on their page should have the ability to do so as long as they don't use it directly in comments or discussions. Users reading their pages are free to feel what they want about that user because of their views, but as per the RS:UTP, we protect that person from anything that may be directed towards them cause of that. 07:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
But what's the point? Your political views have nothing to do with editing the wiki, which is the whole point. If someone wants to express their views on religion or politics, they can go make a blog, a website, a Myspace, a facebook, ect. Those are all free, and people can express their opinions/views on politics and religions. More people read those than stuff on the RS wiki (since those are more trafficked websites). User pages should be learning about a user in regards to editing on the wiki; real life politics and religion don't matter on the wiki, why would they matter on user pages? It's not a personal blog spot. Views like this don't need to do it on here. But, I really don't care either way. 20px‎ Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 07:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
There's nothing that says that what you write on your userpage must be related to editing the wiki. The userpage is a sort of profile page for users to post information about themselves (which is different from a blog), and that includes touching on real life politics/religions. C.ChiamTalk 07:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't have to be related to the wiki (also, I think the RuneScape:User page article needs work in terms of style and content), but stuff that's totally not related to the wiki and that has the potential to cause arguments/personal attacks is just not needed. Information about rs characters is fine, since it's a runescape wiki. Likes and dislikes are fine, since it's not really that personal and wouldn't usually cause any personal attacks. But to me, user pages are kind of a waste, so I guess my opinion is void. I think that user pages should be wiki-and rs stuff only, as well as minor personal things, but not important real life things, such as politial and religious views. There are other, better places to express these views. So, unless a user has set up their talk page to be like a debate, all it would generally cause is some fool to start a personal attack on a user for their personal beliefs. I think the information is useless. 20px‎ Kudos 2 U Talk! Edit count! Contribs! 08:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
This is the slippery slope that is socialism. If you make a rule because you don't want someone to start a fight over some stupid thing like a religious or political view, who is to say that someone wont go to another users page and get offended at some miscellaneous information that serves a purpose as you claim and pick a fight over it. Why don't we keep the rules to a minimum and treat all violations of the UTP as they come up. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 08:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
@Kudos - As I have stated earlier, that is the fool's problem, not ours. I could say I dislike George W. Bush, which is perfectly capable of causing arguments, but it's not my fault if an argument ensues. I have the right to say that. It's the person who can't accept that view and starts the argument who is at fault.  Tien  13:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - As long as it's not offensive, I believe that users can put whatever they want on their page. It's their page, so therefore they can choose what to put on it. (Oh by the way I don't believe in freedom of speech, I am strongly opposed to swearing)--Joe Click Here for Awesomeness 07:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Mostly oppose - per Degenret and D4k. As long as it's not extremely offensive, it's fine. The only types of beliefs that shouldn't be expressed on one's userpage are ones such as Von Brunn's "Obama was created by Jews. Obama does what his Jew owners tell him to do". That would be inappropriate. Butterman62 (talk) 16:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - First Amendment ftw. As per all. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 09:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Closed - Users are free to post their political views on their userpages within reason.--

Helm of neitiznot (charged).png Azaz129 Crystal shield.png Talk Edits Contribs

02:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)