Forum:New deflection curses and protection prayers
With the release of the deflection curses, all guides that have a suggested method by using protection prayers should be updated to include the fact that the deflection curses have lower prayer drain rates, and are as such more effective means of killing the monster with the exact same gear.
This is relevant for a vast amount of articles, and as such require a LOT of work.
Disagree - First of all, these are high level prayers and there aren't really all that may players who actually have the prayer level required to use this in the first place (about 112k players with 71+ prayer, although an additional 100k have 70 prayer). As such, this is to me something much more specialized. It also requires completion of a specific quest (The Temple at Senntisten), hardly something newer players have been able to accomplish simply due to the requirements to even start the quest in the first place. Certainly changing Desert Treasure (a prerequisite to the new quest) to be changed to mention this concept seems to be a bit ironic and indeed flat-out impossible as that quest can't even be done with the ancient curses at all.
It might have some relevance in certain grand master quests and articles about content for very high level players that would indeed be presumed to have completed the Temple at Senntisten quest. This shouldn't be the the basis to change things like the Dragon Slayer quest that correctly recommends the normal protection prayers, and I believe should continue to do so in the future as well. Be very cautious here or overly ambitious about changing all of the guides, quest walk-throughs, or other places that mention prayer usage. This may be something to recommend in some cases, but don't over do this either.
I personally don't think this would impact more than a dozen or so articles where it would indeed be something relevant to include mention of ancient curses. If there have been several folks editing one of those articles recently, bring it up on the talk page of those articles and try to come to a consensus about if mention of the ancient curses is appropriate in that context, and don't make it sound silly. I've seen far too many guides suggest strategies that are based on skill sets that would not normally be used, particularly for content that would normally be done by lower leveled players. --Robert Horning 01:08, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
Dumbing down the wikia to cater to lower level players, thus loosing relevance to higher level players, does not seem to me like an enticing strategy. Those who are able to contribute information unique to wikia (fan-sites with fabulous guides on forums come to mind), will not contribute if the quality of normal articles is not relevant to them.
In regard to your comments: the MOST effective way of doing all tasks is relevant to any guide. thus, where prayer is relevant curses are more relevant to be mentioned than protection prayers. Wikia is not a beginner's guide, but an in-depth database of information.
In regard to the amount of articles to edit consider this: slayer is a high level activity (at least for the shilo slayer masters). Boss hunting is a higher level phenomenon, and here effective strategies are the primary focus of those pages.
Any monster where protection from melee is relevant for higher level players, curses are by definition relevant. Like it or not, effectiveness for higher level players within each guide is the primary way of attaining useful information for expanding wikia. Tortilliachp 10:33, December 8, 2009 (UTC)Tortilliachp
- I'm not saying to dumb the content down, but I am saying that you should use caution when suggesting that these prayers should be used.... and especially make sure that the players who would be in the context covered by the guide can, in fact, use those prayers. Not everybody on Runescape has all of their stats at 90+ with multiple skill capes, and this wiki is for players of all levels. Yes, there are beginner's guides here too, and there are many quest guides that do recommend the use of prayer for protection in order to complete those quests. There aren't that many boss hunting guides either so the number of articles, I don't believe, to be that large. Updating Corporeal Beast? Absolutely! Together with King Black Dragon, Kalphite Queen, and perhaps a few other articles, there certainly would be some that a mention of these ancient curses would be useful. If you happen to see an article that you think a player would likely have access to these ancient curses to be involved with accessing that content.. yes, be bold and make those changes. But also be cautious and don't change it everywhere simply because it mentions a protection prayer. --Robert Horning 13:00, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
Comment - Mention them where it makes sense. Things like Dragon Slayer, no, since Dragon Slayer is a relatively easy quest, and getting 70+ prayer for it would be over the top. On the other hand, things like While Guthix Sleeps would benefit greatly from these prayers, but it is not required to complete it. The Fight Caves minigame would benefit too (the higher levelled monsters accuracy seems to make a lot more hits deflect)... but it would be counter-productive to not mention the normal prayers alongside the curses (using Protect from Melee is advised (Deflect Melee is more effective however) or use Deflect Ranged if possible, but Protect from Missiles is sufficient etc).
As much as we're a guide to high level players, we're a guide to low level and mid level players too. We cannot exclude them from our guides, we must try to accomodate every "player tier" where possible.
Also, the drain rate of the deflect curses and the protect from prayers are the same - 1 point every 3 seconds at +0 prayer bonus (some users tested this ingame).13:31, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
Support Gaz's idea - Lots of users, including myself, would feel excluded if we added suggestions for the Ancient Curses to so many quest articles. However, if we are only adding Ancient Curses to the very difficult quests, support. ~ Sentry Telos Talk 20:01, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
"updated to include" thereby meaning exactly what both of you say - catering to all players. On the drain rate note, unless drain rates are altered by the addition of prayer bonuses, 99 prayer points last me about 90 seconds longer when deflecting than protecting from melee with a prayer bonus of 28.
mentioning where it makes sense is the scenario where at least 50 bestiary articles should be mentioned, in almost every facet of monster killing where protection prayers are relevant to high level players, thus looking at a vast amount of articles.Tortilliachp 20:52, December 8, 2009 (UTC)tortilliachp
Comment and Support - Supported per Gaz and Telos, and the prayers, at least for me, seconds after finishing the Temple at Sennlisten, lasted the exact same amount of time compared to curses. I've removed all of my equipment, spent my prayer points and restored in a normal altar, and then used the deflect melee 'till my prayer got drained, 1 point per 3 seconds. changed to prayers and restored prayer points in a normal altar then used protect from melee 'till my prayer got drained, 1 point per 3 seconds. The restore rates were the same for me, did you spend the extra points you got from the altar inside the Zarosian temple before testing? Because I did. PS: I repeated the test to confirm the theory that they have the same restore rates with magic and missiles protect/deflect, and the results were the same.15:15, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
Closing - no consensus There is no consensus to implement this but users may add the alternative prayer option in guides as they see fit, although they should list it as an alternative, and not remove other options.--Degenret01 04:50, February 23, 2010 (UTC)