Forum:NXT and Adventurer’s Log character viewer images

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Forums: Yew Grove > NXT and Adventurer’s Log character viewer images
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This thread was archived on 8 July 2016 by Liquidhelium.

Recently there have been disputes over images taken in the NXT client and from the Alog viewer - mainly over the quality of images coming from these sources. To prevent future warring about images I am making this thread to review what the community’s consensus is on the significance of these concerns and if/how we should change our current stances on using images from these sources.

Adventure's Log character viewer: per Forum:A new kind of model viewer... our current stance is that images sourced from Alog viewer are allowed. Some concerns were raised over the quality of these images were raised, but at that time the consensus was that these were not significant enough to disallow using the images.

Issues raised since the viewer has started being used have typically been about lack of AA/jaggedness, different lighting detail and texture compared to in-game images, and glitches in images (e.g. limbs not being attached to characters). For example: File:Guidors wife.png, File:Mark Brodie.png.

Potential solutions:

  • Continue with the existing consensus that Alog images are of acceptable enough quality to be used on the wiki.
  • Allow images from the viewer but with in-game images being preferable (so viewer images could be retaken/tagged for retake) or limit use to certain types of images/situations e.g. use for scenery only or subjects which are hard to take images of in-game.
  • Disallow use of images from the Alog viewer.

NXT: our current practice is that images should be updated when their subject is graphically updated in-game. Since the NXT client is intended to eventually replace the Java one, we may assume that images taken in Java are now obsolete and should be replaced. However since Java client is still currently being supported it may also be argued that the Java client is not obsolete at this time and images do not necessarily need updating.

Concerns about images taken in NXT have been about AA and lighting, and chatheads appearing differently to in Java. Examples: File: The Branches of Darkmeyer.png and File:Ral and sickle.png. As far as I know, Jagex have not confirmed whether these things are bugs that may be fixed in future or if they are intentional.

Potential solutions:

  • Continue as is.
  • Disallow/avoid uploading new versions of Java images indefinitely in case of a future update to NXT graphics.

I may well have missed some concerns/solution ideas here but feel free to bring them up in discussion. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 20:00, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Commment - 1 problem. Jagex is notoriously slow at fixing graphical bugs; I recall the glitched skin bugs caused updated images to be reverted because "Jagex will fix it soon". I believe things like File:Genie (Spirits of the Elid).png was/is glitched in game for over 4 years, and still a certain user insists not to update it because "it will be fixed soon." It's rather demotivating like that. --Jlun2 (talk) 20:26, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Continue as is - A-log images have some minor faults that most people aren't going to notice, but they're better than nothing. Stuff from in-game is obviously preferable in many cases, but there are cases whee A-log is better (being unorbable, having lighting detail, being distorted, ect). A-log images are also easy to gather and upload en-masse with transparency already applied, so useful for updating NPC images in maintenance categories.

We should obviously use the NXT client over Java where possible, as it's the current version of the game. Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 20:55, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Disallow Alog viewer - In game > Some buggy cache thing. Getting them in game give the right gradients and such, as well as AA, things the alog viewer does not provide. Also, the alog viewer is really bright for some reason? --dDbvitC.pngScuzzy Betahib8CAd.png 21:58, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

How would we get decent quality images for such things as new bosses in areas with weird lighting or that are impossible to spend time fiddling with an OoO at? Overhead shots with lp bars are okay for like 24 hours after release but we should have more professional images sooner than later, and in some cases the Alog is the best way to do that. Achievements Coelacanth0794 Talk Contribs 22:09, June 24, 2016 (UTC)
I clarify my stance on this in my updated comment. --dDbvitC.pngScuzzy Betahib8CAd.png 17:44, June 25, 2016 (UTC)
In-game is obviously preferable in many cases, but why should we disallow it completely? Surely it's better to have images of stuff rendered slightly differently to how they are in-game than it is to have obsolete/tiny/lighting detail images. Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 22:20, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Continue as is - Java is obsolete, NXT is better, I prefer new graphics over old ones.  Dragon146 22:01, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Continue as is - While an ingame screenshot is preferred over the adventurer's log, there are some cases where it is impossible to take an ingame shot, like how it is with File:Senecianus.png, as the Orb of Oculus could not be brought into the area. pjJ4pBM.png Abyssal vine whip.png 22:49, June 24, 2016 (UTC)

Stuff - We have always taken pride in the quality of the images produced by our Oculus Squad (a name I just came up with), the advent of the bestiary and its successors should not suddenly make logging in and actually orbing something obsolete. In some cases, e.g. removed (holiday) NPCs like Tiny Thom, NPCs in cutscenes or un-orb-able locations like Pescaling Pax or NPCs in complete and utter hellholes like skeleton bone throwers, the NPC viewer is a necessity and we would tie our own hands by disallowing it. However, it should be noted that the images thence are indeed notably and very conspicuously bugged: excessive brightness, partial lack of AA, random bloom, broken textures, detached limbs, ... Therefore, it makes sense to only allow use of the viewer when orbing in-game is not possible in any practical sense. So Vorago, yes. Mark Brodie, no. Canifis settler does have some unremovable LD in-game, but then the viewer version has the brightness issues and several other problems to go along with it, so in-game is definitely better.

As for NXT, it has been released, but nobody can deny it's a buggy mess. We should therefore be cautious when using it. For most location and scenery images where updated water or high draw distance are a thing, NXT should be preferred if not encouraged. For stuff like quest (cut)scenes, those things generally do not play a role, so use common sense whether to use Java or NXT. Looking at the TBoD cutscene example, NXT makes everything blue - bug or not, one should be able to realise that that is definitely not better. As for NPCs, however, NXT seems to suffer from various graphical glitched when you zoom in on NPCs, e.g. glitchy textures or random gif-like artefacts. Chatheads, no matter what your AA setting is, are a complete mess. Therefore I would propose to disallow NXT for close-ups (that is, NPCs/monsters, DIIs and especially chatheads), otherwise allow, with it being considered superior to Java for location images.

On a side note, thanks for making this thread. It was getting out of hand. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 07:35, June 25, 2016 (UTC)

NXT isn't even buggy. The NPC and monster models are on par with that of the Java client, as evident on the three Gower Brothers and the Keldagrim and Sophanem stonemasons. pjJ4pBM.png Abyssal vine whip.png 11:40, June 25, 2016 (UTC)
In some cases, sure, but not in general. The Gowers are an example where Java > NXT, for one. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 12:35, June 25, 2016 (UTC)
I disagree with you, I believe that all images should be replaced with NXT. Dragon146 12:50, June 25, 2016 (UTC)
I noticed, and yet you've failed to respond when people inquired why multiple times. So, against better judgement, why? PS. Fix your signature please. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 14:21, June 25, 2016 (UTC)

Disallow ADV log viewer with exceptions - Basically word for word per Fusswell, as I do agree that there are some things which the newly named "oculus squad" cannot do/can barely do. So for example, I think it's permittable to allow boss images be taken in alog viewer, because areas like those go heavy on reasons why using the orb is hindered: The new bosses, for example, (of which jagex seems to release 1 a month, billed as the "hardest boss yet") are bigger than most buildings in Gielinor. That, on top of the fact that that you're being attacked and will most likely be killed, and that the areas go heavy on lighting detail make it an acceptable time to use Alog viewer. The same goes for holiday NPC images, ones that have had their models updated since (albeit, in the cache). Basically I'm rehashing what Fusswell said, so let me add my own couple of comments:

1. I disagree with Fuss about the glitchiness of NXT. Yes, there are a few stretch glitches, but an idle NPC whos just walking or, better yet, standing there, seems to look fine, especially since I do believe Jagex is sorta making NPCs specifically for NXT(?)

2. I want to hear thoughts on how we should handle NPCs with a lot of particle effects/translucency. I've noticed that the people who /do/ tend to use Alog viewer tend to opt for this for things like ghosts and such, and I can understand why; Considering they're much easier to transl that way, in addition to the fact that not many people know how to/dont transl, makes it a win in most situations. However, in the case of NPC's (or players, aka equipped images) who only have minor particles, (such as Endwyr, Emissary of Seren) we should stick to in game images, unless all else fails.

Sorry for the messiness of my comment. As some of you may know, I am the Wiki's worst thought organiser. I'll tack a comment on if i forgot anything. --dDbvitC.pngScuzzy Betahib8CAd.png 17:44, June 25, 2016 (UTC)

Good point about translucency, I concur. If the translucent bits or particles are minor, in-game should be preferred, though, yeah. Do note that there seems to be a bug in the viewer that prevents particles from rendering - at least, insofar as Wahi's upload comments are accurate. :P User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 18:35, June 25, 2016 (UTC)
It's a problem with the script, not the viewer itself. Just need someone to fix it. Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 20:39, June 25, 2016 (UTC)

Don't disallow alog viewer - This sets up a bad precedent and goes against current status quo. There's too much potential in generating anything we want with that; to just outright ban use of it in any form or to any degree is a giant step backwards. The only argument against it that has any real validity is the use of lighting detail. But that's hardly something anyone cares about, except a small handful of people. Overall, the images aren't even the issue; it's several users. There's no reason to try to please these half dozen people equally, because, so far, all I see here are arbitrary rules that describe someone's personal taste in images. You guys need to realize that most of our audience don't give two shits about the things that have fueled revert wars lately. Not only are these random limitations a waste of time, they're going to make it harder for new users to contribute. You guys just need to start putting some actual thought into what you're uploading, and if it isn't straight up broken, just ignore it. MolMan 18:55, June 25, 2016 (UTC)

At the risk of stating the obvious, it wouldn't be disallowed (in any agreed-upon cases) to the degree that you're permablocked if you upload something from the viewer or anything, we'd just create a new tag saying "unnecessarily from the viewer, go retake in-game pls". User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 12:46, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
That's just as problematic. If the only problem you have with an image is where it came from, there's no reason to retake it. It's a waste of time and effort that could be better spent improving images that actually need it. MolMan 13:07, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
There would be no reason to retake it if the images that came from the viewer were flawless. Unfortunately, they aren't. Far from. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:07, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
That's the sort of mindset that impedes progress. Why bother retaking an image that displays the subject just fine because it's not flawless by your personal stands when you could be updating images that actually need improvement instead? MolMan 19:06, June 26, 2016 (UTC)
It's objectively not flawless, not by my, or anyone else's, personal stands. If that were the case I wouldn't have been reverting all those images. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 19:53, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

Comment - As far as I am aware, the Adventurer's Log Character Viewer has never supported proper particles and the lack of anti-alias would likely be attributed to how the canvas pulls the information to show us what the current string represents. By default all HTML5 canvas feature anti-alias but unfortunately even with using the translate property, it will not using AA. Maybe it's something worth attempting to contact Skillbert about and possibly if the pseudo-sun could be moved as well. I don't want to have images blocked from being uploaded due to their origin like AL3D. Honestly as long as the overlay from a given area isn't terrible, you could use the daystone to alter the surroundings to get a better image when in-game. - Ryan PM 06:30, June 27, 2016 (UTC)

Proposal for alog images - create a new template for these images (like the Bestiary template). Allows easy identification of the images for editors who might want to retake them in-game, but without cluttering up Category:Images needing to be retaken and reflecting that the images are probably good enough/not a priority for retaking. Reverting images taken from alog for general alog viewer issues, e.g. lighting and AA, is unnecessary and reverts should only be for specific glitches with the image subject. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 19:59, July 5, 2016 (UTC)

Such a template should definitely be made. Additionally, I think it should clearly state that if it's realistically possible to obtain a good shot in-game, then that should be done. Creating such a template for NXT images is pointless, since NXT is eventually going to become the standard graphics mode, so I propose we just keep using Retake for NXT chatheads and stuff. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 08:11, July 6, 2016 (UTC)

Closed - There is consensus to make no changes. Adventurer's log cached images will continue to be allowed, though Orb of Oculus images will still be preferred if possible. NXT images will continue to be allowed. --LiquidTalk 21:24, July 8, 2016 (UTC)