Forum:Money making guides, part 3

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Forums: Yew Grove > Money making guides, part 3
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This thread was archived on 7 July 2013 by Suppa chuppa.

Okay, so a few things about the money making guides. This might not need a thread but there are a bunch of minor-ish issues that need to be resolved and I thought it would be best if we put them in one place.

A little background: about a year ago we started to re-do our money making guides. The project had some legs early on but it got abandoned until recently. I and a few others have started creating more guides, and we're at a point where we're probably 60-70% of the way done and it will hopefully only be a few more weeks before we can "release" them.

Before we do that, however, we need to make a few decisions:

What do we do about the old money making guides?
This is perhaps the most important issue. These are overall pretty bad and I think all useful information in them has been put into either an already created guide, or one on my list to be created. We're still a bit lacking in the free-to-play department but I will try to work on that.
The issue is that these pages, however bad, have existed for about four years, and they have been rather popular, making up around 2% of our total traffic. People are probably used to them and it might be abrupt to see them go so quickly. I'm of the mind (as I hope you all are) that the new guides are infinitely superior, but we may want to consider archiving the old pages for now instead of outright deleting them immediately.
How do we display the new guides?
There are multiple ways we're going to display them, including a main table on Money making guide that will show the Method, profit and skills needed (see here). This table is a bit problematic, since we will either need to use DPL to keep it updated (causing load times of 10 seconds or more), or we can use DPL to generate a non-dynamic version that we'll have to regenerate every time something changes or a new guide is added, similar to Grand Exchange/Buying limits. Which do we prefer? Secondly, we want it to be sorted by profit but we can only do that (so far as I know) by simulating a click on the sort button, not by default. Is everyone okay with a random bit of JavaScript on the most popular page on the wiki?
In addition, I think we might have a navbox at the bottom of each guide. It would be quite enormous in size but useful. I would also like to put something on the main page (beyond just Wiki News) if everyone's okay with that.
How do we keep them fresh?
This is also crucial. Prices change, some methods go out of favor, while others either emerge or are created anew. These money making guides are only useful if they are up to date with the latest strategies and methods. The prices are dynamic, but that doesn't guarantee the guide is accurate.
So what I would like to do is set up something similar to Money making guide/Adding to encourage people to share their good methods so we can create guides about them. We also need editors to man the guides regularly so someone is keeping track of them in a month, in a year, in 5 years if we get that far. We have a bad track record with keeping true to large projects over the long run, but I hope this can be some kind of miraculous exception.
How we do high-level combat money makers
The method for determining profit of high-level monsters like Glacors is to multiply the expected kills per hour from a high level player, with what we guess is the average money per kill. Both these numbers can be fraught with errors:
The kills per hour is entirely dependent on your skills, so we run into the continual problem of trying to set a baseline kills per hour for ALL people, even theough what we do specifically may apply to nobody. So do we just take an average and say that the profit was calculated with x kills per hour as the default?
Money per kill is a bit odd -- surprisingly, for extremely rare drops we actually know a great deal about how often they're dropped. So that's out of the way, but we also need to know the more common stuff. So I've been using various drop logs to try to verify the expected money per kill. Is this amount of uncertainty in the calculation okay, or should we scrap it?
Okay, so who's gonna help?
Yeah, so I still need people to help out with the remaining guides. I think this is a really great use of anyone's time, as it's creating content that doesn't depend on Jagex's release schedule, that's still extremely useful to tons of people. We could actually complete a long-running project that could have a significant impact on the people who come here. So get up, and check this page and find a guide you want to do. These need just a final push of attention.

So that's it. Respond to any of the questions with ideas and suggestions, or if you have any other insight. I'm thinking now this may not have needed a thread, but I've already written it. Go read it. ʞooɔ 13:12, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Strong oppose - Per Cook Me Plox. ʞooɔ 13:12, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Comment - I really don't see old guides being changed to new ones being a problem. The new style is clearer and easier to use. I don't think there's a need to archive old style pages. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 13:15, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Comment - Am I missing something or did you forget to include examples of the old and new guides? Also a lot of the guides are plain wrong, thanks to mouse keys not working anymore, so the actual content in them needs to be updated too.04ismailjj6 (talk) 15:04, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Examples are easy to find. And yes, some of them are outdated, specifically herb cleaning. But that's a 10 minute fix. ʞooɔ 15:08, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

addcachedresults y u no. In most cases, I don't see the table needing change. I think you should finalize the layout of the table before we decide whether or not to use DPL. MolMan 15:46, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Support - I will blindly support anything Cook proposes. 1) On a serious note, it'll be fine if we just delete all the old guides, maybe put up a notice for a short period of time so people know of the great improvements that have been made. 2) Non-dynamic table seems to be the best balance of up-to-date information and decent page loads. 3) Call me a pessimist, but there is little chance that we will have a team of editors maintaining the guides in years to come. 4) Is there a way to derive a formula where readers can plug in some variables and get a customised kills per hour for their skill level? 5) Does helping out require playing RuneScape? Finally, putting a Go read it command at the end is pretty redundant. 222 talk 06:46, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Do you think you're funny? HAHAHA I'M GONNA SAY BLIND BECAUSE A MOLE IS AROUND!!! To answer #4, we could probably make some statistical curve for the harder ones to determine, but getting the data for a good one is most likely not going to happen. Cook made me feel bad about saying that last thing. Rescinded. MolMan 14:10, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
Aside from the bad joke, what was wrong with the statistical curve? 222 talk 06:50, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

How about this: Because there is a absolute shit ton of moneymaking guides that probably have never worked, we should do a time thing for all the old ones, and basically put all of em in a list, with a page with 9001 links. Then, we start em new, but the old ones can be nominated back, if they are still useful.--Ice Rush12Zaros symbol.pngTalkHiscores 06:40, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds like a bad idea. ʞooɔ 09:53, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
What do we do about the old money making guides?
We kill them with fire (archive them).
How do we display the new guides?
Something similar to Graphical updates, i.e. subsections.
How do we keep them fresh?
Cook's proposal of setting up something similar to Money making guide/Adding sounds like a really good idea.
How we do high-level combat money makers
The later would make the guides relevant to more readers
Okay, so who's gonna help?
The only cop out I can think of is the fact that I'm flying to 京都 on the 17th.

Temujin 10:06, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

There's one option that we could do: which is to set up a second set of moneymaking guides, and have everyone post their ideas to that set, and sort of archive the old set.--Ice Rush12Zaros symbol.pngTalkHiscores 08:01, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds like a bad idea.
— Cook Me Plox
Temujin 09:34, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Well that's not very nice. What IceRush suggests is to have 2 pages: 1) the moneymaking guide we have now and 2) a new version. Everyone would post their suggestions on the new version, and when that is deemed complete, we make the new version (ie nr 2) the main one. I'm not sure why he'd archive the old one though. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 15:55, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Because the idea wasn't very well thought out and he didn't give it much consideration. Temujin 13:47, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Comment - Well, if you're going to revamp the guides, can you at least check if what you are asking is even possible? For example, this:
http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Money_making_guide/Charging_earth_orbs?diff=8281048&oldid=8255802
How the heck are players supposed to wield a Anti poison totem if the item requirement is an Earth staff? --Jlun2 (talk) 18:36, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

That was there pre-eoc MolMan 18:39, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Now you got me wondering just how many of the guides don't exactly work post-eoc. :o --Jlun2 (talk) 18:41, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Um, that's why he's asking people to help him fix them. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 18:45, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Closed - When the money making guides have been completely rewritten and are ready to go live, we will probably need to revisit this discussion. There is consensus, however, to remove the old guides when the time comes. Suppa chuppa Talk 19:40, July 7, 2013 (UTC)