Forum:Minor transcript reformatting

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Forums: Yew Grove > Minor transcript reformatting
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This thread was archived on 19 April 2016 by Liquidhelium.

Following the unsurprising success of my previous forum, there are several changes I'd like to discuss regarding transcripts.

Removal of {FromGame}
Do we consider this template still useful? I think it should be replaced with a new parameter in {{Dialogue}}.
Colons
Currently, we use "Subject:" or its format breaking brother "Subject :". With the styling changes, we don't have much use for colons anymore. I propose they be removed (I can bot this easily). If we ever feel we want colons back, they are easily added back with the use of :after in the style sheet. If there's strong opposition to remove colons, then I'll just move them inside the bolding syntax to keep things neat.
Numbered options
Currently, we use unordered lists (line starts with "*"). HennyJ suggested adding option labels for navigation (e.g. this earlier mock up). This is easy to implement with CSS, but doing so requires a syntax change. So that basically means it's up to the people who are putting their time into writing these articles.
Additional styling in transclusions
If we want, we have the option to add additional optional styling to transcripts (e.g. the custom letter-like stylings used on Transcript:Somethingorotherwotsit).
General
Just in general, are we happy with the stylings of transcripts? Do we want anything else?
I don't care if you dislike the colors, because they're meant to match the theme. If you want custom colors, they're easily changed in your personal CSS files.

Discussion

Somethingorotherwotsis MolMan 17:36, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Comment - There's no standard at the moment for dialogue options; some quest transcripts act as if the player says said option (even if the player never talked) while others make a new subpoint. What should be done? --Jlun2 (talk) 17:51, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Additionally, I noticed some transcripts have links to other pages on the wiki. See Ancient hymnal for example. Should this be done, or no? --Jlun2 (talk) 18:03, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
Actually I've been working on standardizing the transcriptions dialogue options across quest and NPC dialogue transcripts based on the current style guide and what seems to be the primary convention in use (and style guide). There is a current standard in place that is widely used but hasn't been applied properly everywhere and there are still some transcripts not conforming with it. I have already started the process of going through each of the quest transcripts to make sure that they conform with the standard (in dialogue options as well as other things like general formatting) and to check for/fill in anything missing.
The current standard in the style guide - and the one I've been using to edit transcripts as I check over them - is that Player: should be used only if the player actually speaks those words in the dialogue box (sometimes this happens after selecting a dialogue option to speak those words), and not otherwise. And if the player repeats the same text, then that text appears below the selected dialogue option as part of the conversation that transpires after selecting that dialogue option. Sometimes this player dialogue is the same, but many times it's actually different. (For example, in a quest where you choose your player's response, the dialogue option may say 'Act angry' and the player could respond with 'Player: I'm really upset with you!'. Or the dialogue option may simply say 'About that item...' and the player might respond with 'Player: I'm really curious about that item. Could you tell me more about it?' Or something like that.) And sometimes the player does not repeat the words of the selected dialogue option in the dialogue box at all. Writing the transcript this way makes it clear which is actually occurring, as the dialogue appears in the game itself. JivaSoul (talk) 20:41, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. That has made the most sense to me, and that's what I've done as well with cleanup/writing new ones. Cache117 (talk) 20:43, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

My thoughts on the above proposed suggestions and my reasons for them:

  • Neutral about removal of {{FromGame}}: The purpose of this template is simply to inform the reader that the text is quoted verbatim and that Jagex owns the copyright to it. As long as this is done in some clean and clearly visible fashion, I don't think it particularly matters how it's done.
    • Question/Comment related to this proposal: Several item pages (such as those for books, or the memories from Xenia and Korasi/Jessika from the Nomad's Elegy quest) with associated transcripts, such as the full contents of the book or memory, have the transcript on the main article page itself rather than on a dialogue or transcript subpage. That is mainly where this {{FromGame}} template is used. Should these transcriptions perhaps be moved to new pages in the Transcript: namespace instead? I think that would be more consistent.
  • Oppose removal of colons: One reason (among others) is that, should it be possible to toggle between the current dialogue view and the old view (i.e., just plain bulleted lists, with indents indicating where the dialogue tree goes) - and I do think there should be, then the colons would be necessary for proper display of the dialogue in the old view. I also personally simply think it looks cleaner to have the colons in. I don't really see a problem with having them.
  • Oppose replacement of unordered lists with ordered (numbered) lists: Again for more reasons than one. One is simply that the numbering/ordering could be inaccurate in such cases where the listed options could be shown in a different/random order for every player, or for every time that you come back to that set of dialogue options. Another is that the numbering would actually be off if certain dialogue options only show in certain situations (for example, if an extra option shows only if you are affiliated with a particular god faction, as is the case in Death of Chivalry and Missing, Presumed Death, among other quests, or if an additional option only shows if you have completed a certain quest first or done a certain activity, such as the Ravensworn chat options in The Light Within and in Nomad's Elegy available only for those who have unlocked the Ravensworn title in Prifddinas). It's also time consuming, taking away time from other tasks (such as aforementioned transcript standardization); there's nothing particularly wrong with the unordered lists; and again I don't see it as really necessary.
  • Question/Comment about the additional formatting: I like the look of the cited Postbag from the Hedge page and I do think it looks nice. But where exactly would such formatting be appropriate on a dialogue transcript? I think there are certain situations where it would be appropriate perhaps but don't think we need to add additional formatting needlessly otherwise.
An example of a place where I'd think some of that additional formatting is appropriate is in the (most recent quest rework's version of the) Demon Slayer transcript, where the text written on the scroll that is left in Gideon Bede's place that gives instructions to the player about what to do next could perhaps be written in a little box similar to those grey boxes in which the letters to Wizard Traiborn, the werewolves of Canifis, and other NPCs by players are placed in the above Postbag from the Hedge page.
  • Overall yes I am pretty happy with how transcripts are presently styled, but I'd like the option to toggle between the old style (i.e., just a plain bulleted list) and the new style. Personally I find it much easier to look through the old style (bulleted list) when I'm editing a transcript and looking for errors, incorrect placement of dialogue options on the dialogue tree, missing dialogue and things like that. So, I'd really like that toggle option to be available, if possible.

Thanks for letting me know about this discussion! JivaSoul (talk) 21:29, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Item transcripts are currently being moved to a separate namespace. Jlun is helping with this.
If a toggle were made possible, we could still use CSS :after elements to add the bullets in. I did that with your comment as an example. MolMan 12:35, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the idea of removing colons. However, it's obvious that this is improperly formatted when compared to this, and the latter should be applied universally. Moreover, even in the old version of the pages, the colon should be bolded. Everything else is fine the way it is in my opinion. RuneMetrics Paul Z Talk bite me HS Contributions 23:18, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with this. JivaSoul (talk) 03:19, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

Sorry - About {{FromGame}}. I was pretty new at this whole editing thing when I made that in February 2010 and didn't realize that concatenating From and Game into one word is not how we do things on the wiki, which is why I didn't make it {{From Game}}. I see that whoever made {{FromBook}} has followed my unfortunate mistake.

I don't really have an opinion on the proposal itself, I just wanted to express my regret at being a shitty follower of the general design principles. --LiquidTalk 02:00, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

You are pretty shitty, yes. We probably won't ever forgive you. MolMan 13:52, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Comment: I feel we should have a solid rule on splitting NPC dialogue between lines when it spread accross multiple boxes. Currently RuneScape:Style guide/Transcripts suggests combining, then says it doesn't matter. Personally, I'd rather start a new paragraph at the end of a textbox, as they are part of the "pace" of a conversation. In some of the longer monologues, if not split, it becomes a wall of text. BlaiddSiocled (talk) 14:08, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

I am quite okay with this (splitting text into separate paragraphs when a new chatbox begins) as that would clear up what is going on with some of the otherwise awkward seeming dialogues (for example, when someone is polite and then suddenly gets angry, and the angry text appears in a subsequent chatbox, we can understand that this is where there is a slight break in the dialogue). However, since combining dialogue has been the convention for a while, there are lots of transcripts that would require reformatting if this change is to be made. JivaSoul (talk) 22:20, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Oppose removal of colons and oppose numbered lists Star Talk ayy lmao ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 15:00, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Closed - There is no consensus for specific changes. I remain apologetic for {{FromGame}}. --LiquidTalk 16:42, April 19, 2016 (UTC)