Forum:Maps!

From the RuneScape Wiki, the wiki for all things RuneScape
Jump to: navigation, search
Forums: Yew Grove > Maps!
Archive
This page or section is an archive.
Please do not edit the contents of this page.
This thread was archived on 10 February 2012 by Urbancowgurl777.

Our maps suck. They're inconsistent, low quality and usually unmarked. I would link to some of them but I'm sure you've all seen some. Readers tend to like maps and use them consistently, and we come up short. Buuut...we can do better! We can notate, link, add (good) legends, and a bunch of other things that users find useful. Instead of working so hard on creating ever-larger dimensions of pictures with all sorts of particles and bloom and yadda yadda, we can make the maps a high priority and get so that they are usable and accessible.

Check out some of Tip.It's maps. Compare specifically this with this. Their maps are always of high quality and easy to understand. If we're going to improve the maps, it may be a good idea to emulate their depth of information shown on a single picture. Note that this is quite a bit different from imitation; we're not going to copy their techniques or pictures, because we're the ones that send out the DMCA notices, we don't receive them Lol

Things of interest:

Namespace - For technical reasons I think it would be best if we had all maps in a new namespace "Map". It would give us the ability to use the imagemap (see below), plus if we designated it as a non-content NS we could use the full 990 pixels of width without the sidebar in the way. This is probably going to be the most contested part of what we do for maps, but I think the advantages are great enough that it warrants creating a new namespace (on a sidenote, the Calculator namespace is [failing.)

ImageMapping - This is what will set us apart from the other sites with good maps. Using ImageMap (seen in use at World map/interactive) we can have links from specific parts of the image to their respective monster pages, or whatever other pages could be linked from there.

We also need to decide how we want our maps to appear, have a clear set of guidelines so people know what to do when they're making a map. Personally I'd like to see:

  • 100% view without in-game text or other clutter - Turn off the titles in the world map, make sure there aren't NPC/Item dots on any minimap pictures. 100% is preferred because it keeps the size down and is more realistic.
  • Legend, compass rose and entrance. Maps need legends so people can tell what the notation is all about. Compass roses may seem a little silly as just about all of our maps will be north upwards, but when possible (and space permitting) we should have 'em. For dungeons and non-surface areas, include a small map of the entrance, preferably surrounded by a border.
  • Notation - This is where we have all of the dots and other things that inform the reader. These would be monsters, characters, icons, whatever else is relevant.
  • Ladders and multiple levels - Ladders should be highlighted and show where they lead. Dungeons with multiple levels should be clearly separated by number of levels below the surface.

Check out [[w:c:cookmeplox:User:Cook Me Plox/Map]] for an idea of what it might look like. Does anyone have ideas for changes to the guidelines? ʞooɔ 04:37, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Neutral - While I see value in the last few points, I highly doubt maps are as useful as you make them seem. Of course, city and dungeon maps are quite handy, but after a while, we can all dream the world map, right? We also have NPC maps now, which I think are rather unnecessary for 90% of the NPCs, and they work just fine, although I agree there is a certain inconsistency in the making of them. That Tipit map is indeed good, but the only difference is us having the legend next to the image and not part of it and transparency. To be frank, I am not sure exactly how much the smaller maps such as NPC maps are used, but I think not a lot. I suggest we just keep those as they are, and we may implement the suggested changes in the larger, more useful maps. The map on your wiki (ego! =P) is very nicely made on that matter, although I'd rather have smallified images of the particular monster to link to their articles than circles. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 09:34, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

This map project is aimed towards area & dungeon maps, not small NPC maps which we already have a system for. Small maps like those, though, most likely don't require image mapping/a legend so I don't think it will be an issue. Also, what do you mean by "smallify images"? You mean the clicking area for the link to the monster page? sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 18:57, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
Comparable to [[:File:Frem slayer cave.jpg|this]], but with real images. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 19:55, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
Huh? The monster images? sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 22:13, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
Monster images might get a bit complicated. And yeah, it's mainly for dungeon maps. ʞooɔ 22:22, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
Then I mostly support. Not very sure how useful our maps are at all, but with a legend and some extras they should make a handier help that the in-game ones (if present). User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Support - The dragonkin approve of this proposal! Our current maps are rather terrible, having the information on the actual image would help as people won't have to keep looking back and forth between the image and the article. We need to stop having maps that look like [[:File:Clan Wars Free For All map.png|this]]... Adventurer's log Wahisietel (Talk) Quest map icon.png 09:43, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

That's one of the better ones...check out File:Phoenix Gang Hideout map.png. ʞooɔ 22:22, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
*dies* User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 19:16, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Just need to note a set of guidelines when making the file in question. That it can't be more than 990px, must use a certain font-family and anything else relevant to the file and the wiki. Maybe if we can actually make this namespace work, unlike the slow Portal or rather dead Calculator NS, it will be worth the time. Of course, it would help to know how one plans to make some of those maps when they don't show up in the minimap (e.g. Barrows) or the World Map (a ton of stuff).

Going back to the non-content NS width, if we are going to make use of ImageMap for every article in the proposed Map NS, we might need to make the aforementioned width the required size of all files or keep them to a reasonable width. I'm sure there is other information we could provide on the Map NS articles other than files (Maybe a verbatim MediaWiki message) telling users that they can interact with the map. Also, there are many times in articles that I've gotten frustrated at the lack of maps, hence my going to Tip.it when non exist here. Text can only do so much without good visual reference. Ryan PM 10:18, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

It would be a good idea to limit them all to 990px; I'm not sure there are any single-level dungeons that take up more than that much space. Mapping dungeons not found on the world map is fairly difficult (just ask [[:File:Kethsi map.png|Exor]]), but I think the time taken is worth it. You are right that we are going to need to standardize monster icons, font, how we draw attention to minimap icons, that kind of thing. Once this gets enough support we can move on to crafting some more example maps and creating guidelines. And we can also use them (preferably un-ImageMapped) in mainspace. ʞooɔ 22:22, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
Comment - If we want consistency a mapping style guide would be a great addition. It should cover the fonts, connecting levels, points of interest, and provide blank images (e.g. traps, monster icons, compass) Adult chameleon (automatic).png Anurin Talk · Sign! . 17:13, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Strong Support - I see no reason not to. As a side not, I have programs available to make those NPC maps and to update the world map.  Quest Icon Crest.png Guthix1110 Quest Icon Crest.png 15:43, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I love the idea of a map namespace. I've always found maps very useful for quests etc., so my only problem using them here was the fact that they didn't exist. Your guidelines look great; the only factor I'd like to see implemented is collectiveness, i.e. having a set font, icons to depict whatever they're depicting, etc. I'd prefer to move away from the overly old-style, medieval fonts we tend to use for these things, into something more like Lucida or Monotype corsiva, but that's for another day. I also think we shouldn't initiate this project until we have a proper guide on how to create the proposed type of map, but I think this will be a huge triumph for us if we can pull it off. I'd worry that we might be taking on too much at the moment, what with the improvement of our music articles and ongoing scenery thread underway, but if we stay structured this could be a massive success. Ronan Talk 19:48, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Strong Support, more maps please - Maps would help alot; Tip.it's maps are easy to navigate through, and here users have to look carefully to match the floors. It's rather confusing when doing quests such as Underground Pass. I also support Flaysian's idea about consistency of fonts and icons. And wiki also misses maps for NPC's, monsters, shops... and many other things. It'd be cool if there was a way to integrate the World Map into articles and add a pointer. I'm not sure where I saw it but there was world map of RS based on Google Maps engine. I guess it'd be a fast, easy way to add mini-maps into articles as these maps would have united design, they'd be scrollable and zoomable. I just hope it's possible to display these at Wiki. Dontlietome7 09:43, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Support - I'm ok with this, just not sure who'd be willing to make the maps, 'cuz you know there's going to be a ton of them :P Smuff [cite your sources or die] 14:11, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

comment - made an imagemap at Kuradal's Dungeon#Map. is there anything missing? --Iiii I I I 03:47, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

The links aren't working correctly for me. Also, I think Cook wants to make it so all maps have the same formatting. ;3= sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 04:35, December 31, 2011 (UTC)
they were originally working, but Cook asked me to crop it and said he'd redo the imagemap. unfortunately, he went afk right after he said that :O --Iiii I I I 04:39, December 31, 2011 (UTC)
Fixed and improved the imagemap. ʞooɔ 06:34, December 31, 2011 (UTC)
Please keep "desc" (description?) enabled. It makes navigating to the filepage much easier and, in the case of maps, impacts little on the image. --Henneyj 05:59, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Strong Support - Maps are one of the few things that other RuneScape fansites have on us. We need to standardize them, improve the quality of existing ones, and make more. ~ Fire Surge icon.png Sentry Telos Talk  07:43, December 31, 2011 (UTC

Support - Per above, and Smuff, I would be happy to make some of the maps. Ice Barrage icon.pngHydruminTalk HS Sign HereExtreme magic (4).png 22:29, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Support - Our maps are pretty rubbish. We need to be superior in everything. Bunny ears.pngAliddell TCELeather boots.png 00:11, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Support - Per above. --Touhou FTW Zaros symbol.png 00:16, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Support - Per above What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 00:32, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Support - Yup. Matt (t) 00:37, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Support - Good plan Adult chameleon (automatic).png Anurin Talk · Sign! . 18:18, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Guidelines

Okay, I made some guidelines for map-creating that we can tweak a bit.

Creating basic map
  • World map - 100% zoom, no titles, no yellow connector things, just the plain map.
  • Minimap - For dungeons not found on the world map, we have to do it minimap by minimap. It takes a long time, and you need to remove the yellow and white dots on it. These are hard.
  • Reusing old maps - When possible, you can reuse older maps that we already have, so long as they're not too old, are of decent quality, and have markup that can be removed.
Marking up
  • Dots - We'll use 13px gradient dots with the light part of the gradient at the top and a 2.5px radius drop shadow on all sides. Try and make the color of the dot semi-relevant to the monster. See [[:w:c:Urbancowgurl777:File:Map dot.png|example]].
  • Font - #FFFFFF 18px Kingthings Petrock for legend and title, 14px for notes.
  • Legend - 13 px from edge of dot to beginning of text. 13px from bottom of text to beginning of next line of text.
  • Compass - Use [[:w:c:Urbancowgurl777:File:Compass.png|updated compass]], place above legend.
  • Title - Use this image for title background, and use same font, centered for the title.
  • Background - Black. That is all.
  • Ladders - Connect multi-level dungeons with 1px #FFFFFF white lines with square corners.
  • Notes - Mark any extra things (Agility shortcuts, portals, resource dungeons) with a small curved line and the 14px font, using as few words as possible.
  • Width - The map should never be greater than 990px in width.
ImageMap
  • Use an image map creator to make it easier.
  • Legend - Mark the legend with rects.
  • Map - Map the contours of the room as well as you can and link to the monster or feature found in the room. When there are multiple things in the room, try and break it up based on where the dots in the room are.

Are these good for you guys? Do we want to include monster levels, entrance maps or anything else on them? ʞooɔ 22:04, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Imagemaps - What are these for exactly? --cqm talk 00:15, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

ImageMaps let us link parts of the image to pages on the wiki. See Kuradal's Dungeon#Map for an example. ʞooɔ 00:16, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
Oh they're the monster dots? I see no reason not to support the guidelines tbh :) --cqm talk 01:32, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Ladders - Connect multi-level dungeons with 1px #FFFFFF white lines with square corners. I actually added a drop shadow beneath those too if you look at [[:File:Stronghold of security map.png]], but i guess it's not really necessary. --Iiii I I I 02:28, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - Sounds about right. Any/how much padding between the end of the image and the placement of the legend(s) and map would need to be shown as well. Ryan PM 02:43, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

World Map - Are you talking about File:RuneScape_Worldmap.png, because that was captured at 50% zoom?  Quest Icon Crest.png Guthix1110 Quest Icon Crest.png 03:39, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

No, I mean for when we make the dungeon maps, we can try to take it from the world map. ʞooɔ 03:41, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I support this fully. But I get the overall feeling that the guidelines are reeeaaaaaallly specific. That's okay, I like specificness. But something like "square corners" on the line may be over the top a little; if the line is 1px, it'd barely be noticeable. I would also recommend adding picture examples next to each guideline, so someone can visually imitate it if they can't do it through code.

Imagemaps are fantastic, and we should do it for all our maps. But, last time I checked, imagemaps were extremely complicated and took a lot of technical know-how and effort. If I'm mistaken, that's good. But if not, we may need a link to some kind of guide, or a group of people who will go through all our maps and add imagemaps.

I would also recommend adding a miniature world map in the corner of some town images, with the shown location hilighted; if only to help noobs who don't know where a particular place is. I can see your very enthusiastic about the project, Cook, so good luck to you! Our maps will be the best one day! =D Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 13:30, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'm an idiot. Scratch that about imagemaps; I didn't read the whole proposal. Lol Chicken7 >talk 13:34, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
By square corners, I believe he means the corners should be a 90 degree angle, rather than having a curvy corner or angling the line. This would be easier to keep consistent, by far. On another note, I'd rather see these guidelines as recommendations, so as to not scare off the novice map makers from creating a map. The "ideal" map would follow all of these, but if an editor, for whatever reason, can only create the bare map and doesn't have time/skill/whatever to add icons and an image map, we wouldn't reject the map (another editor can later expand it). After all, in order to add the compass correctly, one needs to know how to use layers, otherwise they'll get a transparent background when pasting in the compass, for example. Hofmic Talk 01:11, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
Oh, okay. I was thinking the actual line had to be rectangular, not bends in it's path. I think that just reaffirms the point we need examples for each recommendation. Another good idea may be to have one large map to use as an example. I agree that we shouldn't delete maps that do not perfectly fit these recommendations, but maybe they should be tagged for "upgrading/standardisation".
Another thing I'd like to mention is about quest articles. How are we going to mark features on the map for quest articles? A possibility is to have a large world map for each quest, and mark each of the main locations that have to be traversed, as well as the quest start point. This would make it easier for someone to work out how much travelling they will have to do, as well as help them during the quest. Obviously, we'd also need maps for individual parts of quests, like the cavern in Underground Pass. I'd recommend adding to the proposal how we will handle quest features on the map. Chicken7 >talk 02:03, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Should the background be different for maps above ground.. like the Grand Tree and Slayer Tower? Black would make it look as if it's a dungeon. Adult chameleon (automatic).png Anurin Talk · Sign! . 11:59, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I've updated 3 maps: Experiment cave, Varrock Sewers and Lumbridge Swamp Caves. I had to confer with Cook about a lot of things, like how to symbolise items and NPCs; I feel the final result above is the best option. What do people think? Chicken7 >talk 12:18, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

fonts are too big - titles and legends should be 18px, not 20px or 24px. notes should be 14px, not the same size as the title and legend. all text color should be white. the black edging/border around all three images is irregular. maps feel cramped - could have slightly more space between the legend and the map (and a larger, more even margin around the whole thing, as mentioned before). the compass looks better placed below the title bar, instead of next to it. --Iiii I I I 18:04, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, there seems to be one major problem as well: the proposal calls for a map namespace, so we could utilize a full 990 pixels width, but the article namespace only has 660 (or whatever). As a result, those maps are scaled and the text becomes slightly blurry as a result. Not to mention image maps will differ depending on the resolution of the map. Hofmic Talk 18:25, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
i completely forgot about the map namespace. O_o anyway, unless the namespace automatically scales the images to fit, this won't be a problem. --Iiii I I I 01:10, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
This request for closure was denied A user has requested closure for Maps!. Request denied. The reason given was: still waiting for Jagex

What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 22:37, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oppose closure - Lack of discussion isn't a great reason for closure. This is a great initiative that could improve our maps significantly. I would request that the interested users should get together to refine the guidelines discussed above, as there is obviously some inconsistencies. Chicken7 >talk 03:51, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I am waiting on getting map squares from Jagex, because I've found it to be increasingly difficult to make maps via the minimap (apparently the anti-bot update screwed things up). Until that happens, I would prefer this thread stayed open at the bottom of the Yew Grove, as there's no harm in keeping it open and I've been promised that we'll get access to the squares. In the mean time, there are lots of maps made from the world map that we can add the dots and things to. ʞooɔ 04:35, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Closed - There is definitely consensus to get this done, however, we can't do anything until Jagex gets on board with us for the squares. After that happens, we can revisit this topic in a new thread to refine the details and discuss the namespace. (: sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 21:25, February 10, 2012 (UTC)