Forum:M&S rework, ironpeople, and quests
So the M&S rework has happened, and the wiki has kept up pretty well. A post on reddit made me realise something we might have overlooked though: the effect it has had on iron(wo)man accounts and quest reqs.
Prior to the rework, ironmen that needed an ore or bar for a quest could just check the dropping monsters list and go kill things until they had what they needed. Now they're not dropped by anything, meaning ironwoman accounts need to actually have the required levels to get those ores/bars. Or other metal items that used to drop but no longer do, for that matter.
Obviously these requirements are not already in the quest details infobox, because of the previous availability through drops. But should they be now? I added them to Monkey Madness, as an example of how it could look. I just wondered if anyone has a better approach to the sudden expansion of ironperson requirements for quests.
Support - Perhaps an "IronMeme" channel on el Discord.
18:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Support - There's already a list of suggested levels (granted most of those are officially suggested), and it makes sense for a player who can't access the GE to have incidental level requirements listed, unless a required level meets or exceeds it. Badassiel (talk) 18:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Support -02:03, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Comment - Forum:Distinction of Ironman related content in guides stated that ironmeme only requirements can be placed in a collapsible list. The example given in the thread is Tears of Guthix which requires an extra smithing level to make a bullseye lantern. I don't really see how this proposal is any different. --LiquidTalk 02:25, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Comment - There are sources of ores/bars besides Mining/Smithing and monster drops, please remember to account for them when adding ironmen requirements. For example, Monkey Madness can actually be done without 40 Mining/Smithing by either completing Goblin Diplomacy or Waterfall Quest (rewards a gold bar) or using Telekinetic Grab on the gold ore/bar in Varrock west bank's vault (requires 33 Magic).02:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Support/Comment - I support the idea, as ores/bars could definitely be more difficult for iron-persons to obtain. Per Battleben above, we just need to make sure the reasoning for listing a skill requirement is defined. In the monkey madness example, "40 Smithing" should not be added without also the parenthesis to state why (making a gold bar). This way, ironpeople can see that and quickly decide for themselves if they truly need the levels, or can find another way to obtain what they need. That said, I would not be against listing things in this style:
Note the "required" or "recommended". Required for things that simply can't be obtained other ways (not sure how many of these there really are) or recomended if there are other feasable ways to obtain the item.04:36, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I was aware, you're already supposed to put the reason why an Ironman req exists in parentheses, and I did so in my Monkey Madness edit. It was like that in the page I used as reference to get the wikicode as well. I agree that just listing an IM req without saying why it exists is daft. AnselaJonla (talk) 13:04, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Support - Great idea.13:09, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - I don't actually think this is the responsibility of the quest page. Ben brings up an excellent example where Monkey Madness doesn't have an indirect requirement of 40 Mining/Smithing because gold bars can be obtained elsewhere for ironmen/women. If we start adding these requirements they're going to get quickly redundant when newer methods are added or if people discover another way to obtain an item. Do we put 40 Mining/Smithing, or do we put 33 Magic for telekinetic grab, or do we put the requirements of Goblin diplomacy? What about other quests that need a gold bar? You put the requirements to obtain a gold bar on the gold bar article, not the Monkey Madness article. It is the ironman's responsibility to look up the specific pages on what items are required and how they can obtain them. We don't want to clutter our requirements putting all these obscure requirements for miscellaneous items. Haidro 00:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Support - We're here to make people's lives either, and yes, that does include ironmen, women and people.00:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Support - Our purpose is to inform, and telling ironpeople "Fuck you" fer nae having the foresight to save a minor reward from a minor quest seems rather counter to this purpose. Rather we should assume that these people didnae have that foresight. Just like when ye write a scientific paper ye dinnae assume the reader is 100% aware of the background of yer research and therefore provide clarifying information, we shidnae assume that ironpeople are so versed in RuneScape quest requirements and should therefore provide clarifying information Ciphrius Kane (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Comment - Since we're not really discussing anything new here with this discussion going in the same direction as Forum:Distinction of Ironman related content in guides as I mentioned above, I'd like to take an opportunity to discuss Hairdo's point of what we should actually consider an ironman requirement. Hopefully, we can come up with a standardized set of criteria for what to include as a requirement. This is especially true for items that have multiple sources, and what we should consider the quote-unquote de facto requirements for the item, and whether we should include limited availability options.
Taking the gold bar as an example, while you do get one from Goblin Diplomacy, this isn't exactly repeatable. However, it's also definitely possible to get one without 40 Mining/Smithing. For starters, 40 Mining is definitely not necessary because you can pick up a gold ore on Brimhaven from the horseshoe mine there. There are (if I remember correctly) aggressive scorpions there, but that shouldn't really be an issue for anyone looking to do the quest. This would bring the requirement down to just 40 Smithing. Or, as mentioned above, you can Telekinetic Grab the one that spawns in the Varrock bank basement, which would change the requirement to 33 Magic. So a more accurate ironman requirement would be to save the bar from Goblin Diplomacy or have 40 Smithing or have 33 Magic. Annoyingly, Gold bar does not have a list of spawn locations so it's possible that one is out there somewhere that no one has thought of yet, which would remove the Ironmeme requirement completely. I think that in this case we should probably just list 40 Smithing or 33 Magic with a footnote that this can be avoided by saving the Goblin Diplomacy reward.
For another example, take the Grand defense potion needed for The Light Within. Traditionally, this requirement has imposed a de facto 89 Crafting requirement to make the Crystal flask needed and an 81 Mining requirement to mine it (you also need 79 Herblore to make the potion but this is moot as the quest itself needs 80 Herblore. However, theoretically you can get one from the Motherlode Maw. This is extremely rare, as I have never gotten one in several years of doing the Maw daily on my main. Grabbing it from the Maw itself is pointless as it requires 115 Dungeoneering and 95+ in all other skills, which is higher than what is needed to just make the potion yourself. But, theoretically exchanging 10 Motherlode shards with Wythien in the Meilyr district. The only way for Ironmemes to get the shards is by pickpocketing Prifddinas elves (91 Thieving requirement) or from the Crystal chest in Iorwerth (no requirements other than to obtain the Crystal keys). Taking the minimum, this technically puts the minimum for The Light Within at no extra skill requirements but a lot of luck needed. I don't think this is a viable way to try to obtain the item for the quest, and so we should not remove the 89 Crafting/81 Mining requirements.
Another "edge" case is Magic logs. Desert Treasure needs six for the magic mirrors that are totally unnecessary with a guide. You don't need to get them yourself or even try to get them as a drop, as Woodcutting dailies provide a reliable way to obtain Magic logs for Ironmemes. The current quest guide has a note that the requirement is not necessary if you obtain the logs as a drop without mentioning daily challenges. This is also true for Raw sharks (required for Fremennik Trials) and Fishing dailies.
So after that extraneous text wall here is what I'd like to propose for what we should list for Ironmeme requirements:
- List the minimum requirements for the common/easy ways. Things like picking up a Gold ore spawn to avoid the 40 Mining requirement are acceptable if the spawn is in an easily accessible location. These requirements do not have to be level requirements as they could be quest requirements, for example, to access an area a spawn is in. For a gold bar, this would mean 40 Smithing or 33 Magic. For a Magic log, this would be 75 Woodcutting or a daily or a drop.
- List the minimum requirements for alternate rarer strategies to obtain the items needed if they need different skills than the what is required for #1 above, including no requirements in the case of drops or daily challenge rewards or something else. I would define "rarer" as less likely but still definitely possible to do within a day or so. For example, 50 Hunter would be listed as an alternate requirement to 85 Cooking to obtain the Wild pie needed for the Varrock diary (you can get them as uncommon drops from Eclectic implings and you can farm them in Puro-Puro).
- Do not list extremely rare workarounds like the way I mentioned getting a Grand defense potion. Extremely rare would be anything that's so unlikely that you'd probably get the level requirement if you just trained the skill before you got the item you needed using this method.
- For items with many different ways to obtain, I would suggest we add that information to the item page itself and just link to it from the quest guide.
Support/Comment - I support the idea, I think it's useful to ironmen to have those requirements. I think we should always specify the base skill(s) for the item (eg woodcutting for logs) regardless of any alternative ways to get the item. Also important to state what the requirement is for. In the Monkey Madness example I'd change the Mining requirement note to
(to mine gold ore for gold bar) just to be extra clear. 10:32, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support - I'm just going to have to agree with Elessar2 here I think we give the requirements to skillfully obtain the item and then in the items page we list the other possible options for how to get it. I think it would be unwise to have to reedit every quest page (or even just a large number of pages that are not really relevant to the item itself) when a new way of obtaining an item comes out jericowrahl (talk) 15:29, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
- The problem with this is that it can be misinterpreted and people will assume the skill reqs are the only way to obtain the item, when there could be easier options. If we want to avoid editing every quest page when a new method of obtaining an item comes out, why bother putting a skill requirement in the first place? Haidro 00:50, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Additional comment While I commented above in support, I wanted to touch on a few more points here that others have brought up. Haidro brings up a good point in that it isn't the responsibility of a quest guide to teach an ironman how to play the game, and cluttering up the quest guides is not a good idea. Like Liquid said, extremely rare workarounds or items with lots of different ways to obtain shouldn't be listed out in detail. The important thing here is alse Kelse said: make the lives of ironpeople easier. Giving them a huge text wall doesn't make things easier. To put it simply, UCS on what is a "clear and concise" requirment to list. For gold bar (from the example we've all been using), can't we just say "40 Smithing (to smelt a gold bar) or 33 magic (to telegrab a gold bar)". We shouldn't list more then 2 (maybe 3 at max) ways of obtaining a thing. If there are more ways, the will be the less obscure ways and probably not all that relevant. If the ironperson reading the page sees that telegrab option, and they have 33 magic but not 40 smithing, they at least know that they meet a minimum requirement, and can figure out how to complete the quest from there. If they see "gold bar" in the description, but don't have 33 magic or 40 smithing, yet know they have a gold bar in the bank from some quest they did or from some spawn point or something else: great, they still know they can complete the quest. In summary, yes give the ironmemes the information they need to answer the question "can I currently complete this quest?" but don't overinflate quest guides for this purpose. Give the ironplayers some credit on their ability to do a little extra research on their own. Afterall, isn't that part of the point of playing as an ironperson- to do be a bit more independent?18:38, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- My proposal Reading over things a second time, including my own comments, here is what I propose: List the direct level requirement(s) for the item, then either indirect and 1 common alternate way of obtaining or up to 2 alternates if there isn't an indirect level requirement. Something like this:
Required: Gold Bar (Typically 40 Mining and 40 Smithing; Alternatively 33 Magic to telegrab gold bar; Alternatively completion of "Goblin Diplomacy" for gold bar quest reward).
This shouldn't overly clutter quest guides, still tells the ironperson if they meet minimum requirements at a glance, and gives them the reasoning as to why the requirement is there as a starting point if they wish to independently find an obscure workaround. 19:02, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Oppose all alternate proposals - Mithril bar, which iirc can't be obtained other than smelting or GE). Adding the various methods of getting a specific item on quest pages is a pain in the ass to maintain, especially in the future if the methods of getting an item changes (for example, the Mining and Smithing rework), so the proposals about listing common methods/telegrabs/etc aren't smart. The information on obtaining these items in alternate ways is listed on the item's page, which is much easier to maintain than updating every quest page that mentions the item.is designed for situations where ironman accounts require specific levels to complete a quest, not for situations where an item could be obtained via a drop, pickpocket, or something else (for example
To be clear, as I already indicated in the thread, I am happy to support listing ironman requirements when they are actually hard requirements, but not those for items that can be obtained by other means, and for those items that can be obtained by other means, we should not list those means. We have never done this on any quest, because we expect the reader (as most do) to click through to the item's page if they want to find out how to get it. jayden 12:35, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - Reading through Jayden's post made me realize that the item pages do have alternative methods of obtaining the item and this would be an easier edit to manage than having to constantly and consistently go through the Quest Guides, which are a beast! 22:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - While I like the idea in theory, doesn't this functionally mean we'd almost never add the template to a quest requirements list? There are very few items needed for quests that require some level to obtain with no alternate methods. --LiquidTalk 12:48, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Comment - Everyone here is way too centred on the gold bar/Monkey Madness example. It's great that we've all discovered many ways to obtain a gold bar but I urge you to think of many other items in many other quests, such as what Liquid brought up. There are so many instances where we'd have to repeat information for multiple quests requiring the same items, which is a big no when new updates come out or when someone else discovers a better method. It's so easy for this information to get redundant, outdated, and extremely messy.
I don't agree with Jayden's proposal since it doesn't fix the problem here. What happens when a new method comes out to obtain a mithril bar? This information is so easy to put on the mithril bar page, and my proposal would just be to include a small little sentence in the quest navbox stating "Some of these items required may have additional skill and quest requirements for ironmen. Refer to the item page for specifics". Haidro 10:43, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- What do navboxes have to do with this? I'm assuming you mean infobox? :P 09:01, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Support w/ Comment - Late to the party, but I think this could be solved with some formatting. I have 3 suggestions, each based on that a given item's page has a section called "Obtaining", this section would have a standard format table akin to thetemplate. This table would contain a list of skilling methods, rewards and a link to drop sources if applicable.
|Method 1: Link to the Obtaining section in for required items, leaving the normal Ironman "hard requirements" as-is:
|Method 2: Superscripted link to the obtaining section using the Ironman badges, or a plain link, next to required items, yet again leaving Ironmanreqs alone.|
|Method 3: Transclusion of the obtaining section's table
Just food for thought. 07:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - I agree with the comment left by @Haidro stating the below.
What happens when a new method comes out to obtain a mithril bar? This information is so easy to put on the mithril bar page, and my proposal would just be to include a small little sentence in the quest navbox stating "Some of these items required may have additional skill and quest requirements for ironmen. Refer to the item page for specifics"
- Still not a navbox, that's the infobox being referred to by Haidro. ;) Infobox is the thing at the top with info about the quest, navbox are the boxes at the bottom with links to other pages. 08:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - What of quest locked items? Are we going to differentiate between f2p and p2p ironman as well (granted there aren't alot of f2p quests). There would also be no clear cut method to selecting what constitutes as a "common/easy" way for ironman to acquire an item. Honestly, I think that people who play ironman accounts are people who have some basic ideas of the game already, and having to take extra care when doing stuff differently to regular people isn't something rare either. A clear list of required items should already be enough. We don't list requirements for skillers or pures or the money required to buy something either.11:24, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Closed - there is no consensus to expand the use of the ironmanreqs template beyond its current use of noting "hard" level requirements (which an ironman mode player must have in order to complete a quest). While a lot of editors liked the idea of having more information about potential "indirect" level requirements (which ironman mode players might need to obtain items required for a quest); Haidro and Jayden raise good points about the feasibility of implementing this and keeping the information updated over a large number of quest pages. This is in line with our reasoning generally for not duplicating the same information on multiple pages (without the use of a template to keep the information updated more easily, but that suggestion wasn't made in this thread). The solution would seem to be to ensure that information about different ways to obtain items be kept on the items' pages, with the expectation that ironman mode (and other types of) players will navigate to these pages and research their best option to obtain them.18:17, 14 April 2019 (UTC)