Forum:Letter to Jagex

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Forums: Yew Grove > Letter to Jagex
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This thread was archived on 23 January 2010 by Rwojy.

I decided that this should be in it's own forum, not piggybacking on another. I have made a draft for the community to decide what should be in it. One thing, this is only for asking permission to use copy their website updates and such for historical and informative purposes. This is not a place to discuss what questions will be sent, if you want that, then write your own letter for the community. I will transclude the draft onto this page, but there are comments that will be left out. DHBucket detail.pngrwojy 21:22, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Note: I will mail the letter by the 25th/26th, unless serious discussion is still going on.


Discussion

Comment - This seems fairly fair. Youdead00 21:24, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Where exactly are you sending it to? scoot4.pngscooties 21:25, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, the address is here. I put a comment on the actual draft page about it, as it isn't something that can be discussed, because Jagex only has an office in Cambridge. BNVTXIBucket detail.pngrwojy 21:32, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - He's sending it to wherever we copy copywrited images, inscriptions, cartographs, ect.Youdead00 21:26, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - This is the correct way to handle the situation. If our previous section was against copyright law, then we should just get permission. @Scoot: it's addressed to "Sir or Madam"., aka whichever one reads if first. --Liquidhelium 21:28, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I think it should be more strongly implied that this letter is only about "using in-game characters' dialogue for historical purposes", and not about the RSMV or getting us recognised as a fansite. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:30, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

How about this? Also, the comment about us being aware is true, based on this comment. ONSXSBucket detail.pngrwojy 21:37, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support + comment - Why do you need to mention that you are an administrator? --Iiii I I I 21:33, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

In this case, being an administrator is important, because it shows that I am a trusted user, not someone who did this who has no standing support in the wiki at all for sending a letter. FNXMXBucket detail.pngrwojy 21:37, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Oh. --Iiii I I I 21:43, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I would rather not see us get into trouble over this. I can't see how sending this message will hurt. Magic-icon.pngStelercusIlluminated Book of Balance.png 21:57, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support - Seems good.--Cheers, Off-hand ascension crossbow.pngYodaAscension crossbow.png 21:59, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Has Jagex hassled us about using their site updates? If not, why trouble trouble when it's really not troubling us. Also, I'm surprised that this is even getting some feedback regarding caring about hoe Jagex feels, since we don't seem to care about risque stuff here. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 22:48, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Just because Jagex hasn't said anything before doesn't mean they won't in the future. What we are doing right now IS a violation of fair use. Ignoring it because Jagex has is not a good reason in my book. HMTCABucket detail.pngrwojy 22:58, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you want to invite them farther into our humble abode, I'm not one who'll stop you, but this could make more problems than it solves, is all I'm saying. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 04:04, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

question - Why is this necessary? I am nearly positive that using content for historical records and information is the definition of fair use. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:49, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Read Robert's last post in Forum:Dialogue pages. He explains it very well. BVVEBucket detail.pngrwojy 22:58, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Update I have decided to define what we consider updates. It is located here, and anyone is welcome to suggest reasonable changes to it. CJCBucket detail.pngrwojy 10:39, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Hmm. Many other fansites (besides ours) also quote updates (see here), and it's quite a common practice. I think if Jagex had any actual problem with it, they would have mentioned it ages ago, so is this actually necessary? C.ChiamTalk 11:19, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Same response in Forum:Dialogue pages: One: we are asking for permission for ourselves, not other fansites. And two: Just because other sites do it doesn't make it any less illegal. XDGWVFBucket detail.pngrwojy 11:23, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
Uhuh, yeah, but the fact that other sites + us have been doing this for years with Jagex having no problems with it suggests that this is a non-issue. C.ChiamTalk 11:26, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I am sending this letter because I am at 95% sure that we will get permission. If there was no chance, then this letter would just make things worse. YKXJQBucket detail.pngrwojy 11:29, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
Lol, sounds like redundancy to me. C.ChiamTalk 11:30, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - While I don't really get why we're sending this permission letter, I've modified the letter so that it is much more clearer. I didn't want to mess to Rwojy's draft, so I'm posting it here. I hope that's okay.

Also, Rwojy, please clarify the "Wikia is trying to work it out" part. I seriously doubt that Wikia is working anything out on behalf of our wiki, but if they are, please explain this in more detail. Otherwise, simply omit that part.   az talk   11:38, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am an administrator at RuneScape Wiki, a fansite dedicated to the RuneScape game. Our wiki is locate at http://runescape.wiki/. We are not one of the fansites recognised by Jagex, but this is not an inquiry about becoming a fansite. We are aware that Wikia, the company which hosts our wiki, is trying to get RuneScape Wiki on Jagex's recognised fansite list.

It has been recently brought to the community's attention that our copying of RuneScape's news posts does not fall under the United States fair use doctrine, and is therefore a violation of Jagex's copyright law. (The link to the forum thread that addressed this issue is: http://runescape.wiki/wiki/Forum:Links_in_Update_pages#Copyright_Violations.)

Thus, I, on behalf of the RuneScape Wiki community, am now asking for permission to copy content published on the RuneScape website (http://www.runescape.com/), and to keep existing news posts and other content already published by Jagex in our database. (A list of pages in our database can be found at: http://runescape.wiki/wiki/Category:Updates.)

We also discussed about providing full transcripts of conversations between an NPC and the player as "dialogue pages" for historical and informational purposes. (The link to the forum thread is: http://runescape.wiki/wiki/Forum:Dialogue_pages.) It was brought to our attention that publishing transcripts does not qualify under fair use, and thus we are asking for permission to publish dialogues of NPCs and summoning pets.

On behalf of RuneScape Wiki,
Rwojy (or Rwojy's real name)
An administrator of RuneScape Wiki

That's pretty good. Also, about Wikia working on it, see here and here. The second comment was missed because it was posted after the forum was closed. UJDOKEABucket detail.pngrwojy 11:48, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. I've made the revelant changes.   az talk   11:58, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - It's always possible to use a custom footer to mark out that RuneScape is © of Jagex, and so are the updates ([[w:c:phineasandferb:|Example]] [[w:c:cityofeternals:|Example]]). You can request it using Special:Contact, and then edit MediaWiki:Custom-footer. Mark (Talk) • (Contribs) 14:13, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - That may be good, although this letter still needs to be sent.I believe even if we acknowledge Jagex for the work, it is illegal if we have not received explicit permission. Maybe it is worth mentioning to Jagex we will put the (c) Jagex in the footer if that is what they desire? Cheers, Chicken7 >talk 14:17, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

That one seems a lot better Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 12:10, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Support - I certainly don't see why not.HeadManiac 16:21, January 19, 2010 (UTC)



It has been recently brought to the community's attention that our copying of RuneScape's news posts may infringe on copyright regulations. does not fall under the United States fair use doctrine, and is therefore a violation of Jagex's copyright law. (The link to the forum thread that addressed this issue is: Jagex follows British copyright law, not American copyright law. Under British law, anyone can be tried for infringing on British intellectual property law if revenue/sales are made in Britain at all (4 copies of a book sold on amazon.co.uk led to trials in Britain in one case). Tortilliachp 18:03, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

I have invoked American copyright law here as this website is hosted on a server in the United States (actually, in Florida with the company HQ now in San Francisco) and as such it would have to go to U.S. Federal Court in order to be enforced for copyright infringement. The legal rational for enforcement, however, would involve the Berne Convention and the WIPO Treaty that both the UK and the USA are both signature parties and have ratified this treaty. International copyright is sort of ugly, but the whole things boils down to the fact that Jagex has to come to the USA to enforce copyright on this server for it to mean anything. Surprisingly, fair use in the USA is even more "liberal" (allows more non-infringing uses of copyrighted material without permission) than the similar doctrine of "fair-dealing" that exists under UK law. For our purposes and what we do on this wiki, it is essentially the same thing. For those contributors to this wiki who happen to live in the UK or in Crown Commonwealth countries (like Australia, New Zealand, or Canada), the British law is a bit more relevant and important to consider. Contributors from other European Union countries have an even more complex relationship here, but it still ends up with similar results. In France, fair use isn't even legally recognized at all. --Robert Horning 18:20, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Extreme support - as creator of the last forum dialogue pages I am an extreme supporter of this letter. Thanks all supporters! Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  14:25, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Comment I think the letter is good, but I would remove the part referring to where the letter is not about being an approved site. Since that is not the point of the letter why mention it at all? A good business letter sticks to the salient points. Just a thought, not like it will hurt anything.--Degenret01 21:26, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

nuetral I threw in the towel about the dialoage pages thing and i want you to know that you can message my talk page if you would like to be owner of it!  Rune scimitar.png Ppi802 Coins 1000.png  22:37, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

The dialogue pages have nothing to do with this, so why did you change your vote? --Iiii I I I 22:45, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
Didn't read the new version of the letter... --Iiii I I I 22:47, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Closed As there isn't any more discussion and no opposition, I will mail the letter, az's version, today. When I receive a response, I will create a new yewgrove for it. UCMOMBBucket detail.pngrwojy 08:53, January 23, 2010 (UTC)