Forum:LGBT character/content category?
I have noticed an effort on Jagex's part to improve LGBT+ representation in RS. I was recently reminded of this when looking at the 2020 Easter event and learning of the marriage of Annette and Caelyn. Consider also Armadyl, who had two husbands throughout his lifetime.
Angof's dialogue is another example, which is highly suggestive of the experiences of some trans and gender non-conforming people experience: "You weren't always female?" "You say that as though it is unusual. We are shapeshifters, gender to us is hardly a constant. Sometimes we are born into a body that is not ours. Without the crystal that would be the end of it, but I was fortunate enough to be able to correct that mistake. What I was is irrelevant. What I am is all that matters." See also here the Makeover Mage and Wizard Jalarast.
In 2017, in OSRS, Jagex ran the controversial Gilbert's Colours event to promote inclusivity.
Currently "gay" redirects to rainbow, which I suppose is helpful on one level, though the connection (if there is any intended by Jagex, though it may also be acceptable on the basis that LGBT players may choose to express themselves using rainbow cosmetics) could do with some explanation.
If there is a clear effort on Jagex's part to improve LGBT+ representation in game, would it be helpful to have (a) a category for LGBT+ characters?
An alternative (or complementary) option (b) would be to have a "diversity" page on the Wiki, considering Jagex's use of this term as an umbrella for such as race and related concerns.
(This also be my first forum post so please let me know if I need to change anything or do anything different in future).10:43, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Comment - While I agree with the principle idea, but I think it'd need some harder guidelines than what's currently proposed, as there's 3 different groups from what I'm seeing here. While Armadyl, Angof, the Kadaans, Kavel and Morvas, and Brand and Astrid are all confirmed serious LGBT+, we've also got speculative LGBT+ such as Jessika and Korasi (were planned to be in a relationship), Zanik (identified as bisexual in a likely now-deleted forum post, which may have stated a developer's thoughts rather than a canonical sexuality), Nex (revealed to be lesbian in a non-canon quest) and the Makeover Mage (who seems to be more of a joke about their magical abilities rather than an actual LGBT representative), and finally the "accidental" LGBT+ like Wizard Jalarast. Also, where would the player and Evil Dave fit on there?
And if we went for the diversity page (which seems rather excessive to me at this time), would we also include unmentioned race changes such as Guildmaster Tony becoming whiter than white? I think this proposal could do with clearer definitions Ciphrius Kane (talk) 11:27, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Comment - I've fixed your links. Check the diff to see what I did. :) I agree with Ciph, but to address your questions/suggestions I guess the category could be named
Category:LGBT+ characters and possibly one for other diversity related pages, e.g.
Category:Diversity which will have the former in it. As for a diversity page, you could make one, perhaps call it
Diversity and let gay redirect to that page instead. I imagine this page would contain a list of those LGBT characters as well as other diversity content. Perhaps also have a section about the efforts Jagex has done so far and/or are planning to do. 11:33, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Comment - Pretty much agree with Salix. Also note that MitcheII created for user pages. 09:17, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
You can list it under the trivia section I don't see how it's really relevant enough mechanic to the game to be a category2600:1702:590:5320:F884:68F9:B947:5C1A 01:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
- We've got several non-game mechanics categories, like Category:Authors Ciphrius Kane (talk) 00:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Support - While I don't have any input at the moment for the specifics, I'm for more visibility for the LGBTQA* community. So any way that it's been added into the game should be accurately held on the Wiki. Legaia2Pla ᴛ · ʟ · ᴄ 01:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Support - As a rainbow myself I'm all for this. awesome work.11:01, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Comment To me personally this topic is very dodgy. It opens up the door for a lot of arguments, speculation, and drama that otherwise doesn't belong on the Wiki. While Jagex being inclusive of these groups of people is appreciated by many who fall into those categories, I feel drawing attention to it will open a large can of worms that not many are willing to deal with. Maybe I'm missing the point here because I myself don't fall into the LGBT spectrum, but I can only see this throwing the doors wide open for a lot of trolling and arguing. I'm going to remain neutral on this one. WiggleCat (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
- It's a category. Haidro 14:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
- Oh. I misinterpreted something somewhere. I was under the impression this was going to be a forum for some reason. Support WiggleCat (talk) 15:13, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
- Well, part of the proposal is a category, however the possibility of a page is also mentioned (that Salix and Ciph commented on) 15:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
- This is just a side note to my original comment to help people understand the point I'm trying to make. I've noticed a lot of vandalism on the Caelyn Kadaan page regarding the mention of her wife. There's people doing things from changing wife to friend to outright removing the snippet that mentions she's the first openly LGBT NPC in Gielinor. Although they're involved in the Easter Event which attracts some attention, the bits about her LGBT origins are in no way put in the spotlight yet people are messing with them anyway. Now imagine that amplified because it has a dedicated page that WILL put it in the spotlight. The only solution to this I see is that if it does become its own page we'll have to limit its edit permissions to a small group of people. Otherwise we're going to make a lot of unnecessary work for ourselves having to constantly clean it up. WiggleCat (talk) 16:47, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think the fear of potential vandalism work should take away from the encyclopaedic nature of the Wiki. 16:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Comment I'm slightly skeptical and the main reason is because I have always found it paradoxical to label and categorize inclusive content; to make a list of all the 'inclusive content' seems strange and counterintuitive to me, when the whole point is to make it not stand out as anything noteworthy or unusual. Sexuality can be a very fluid thing (especially in another universe where culture and history are different and other rules apply). Jagex should continue on their path to make the game more inclusive and we should support them, just without the need for labels. Exaldin (talk) 15:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Support (a) - I think when I first saw this thread I was definitely a bit hesitant - due to reasons mentions in Exaldin's comment above. However I don't see a good reason not to have a category tbh (we have categories for everything lol). I don't think I would support having an entire page, any relevant details can be mentioned (and presumably already are) on the relevant pages.15:37, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Support (a), Neutral (b) - Per Star, I would encourage adding factual information to specific pages where they are not already (trivia might be a good place for it). Per Ciphrius, I would encourage citations from canon sources where this information is added, and keeping it factual, as opposed to implied speculation.23:08, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Support (a) - Simply why not? As per Star, we have categories for lots of various things. Why not add more? And this one will nicely showcase the inclusivity in both the game and the Wiki community. Icy Glacies 23:40, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Support :) just to add to this, I'm fairly certain that Seren was initially male when Mah created her. I can't seem to find the quote though, even on the transcript page. Walk here Chee (skill: 2889) ▸ Choose OptionFollow Chee (skill: 2889) Talk to Chee (skill: 2889) View Equipment Chee (skill: 2889) Req Assist Chee (skill: 2889) Examine Chee (skill: 2889) Cancel 20:58, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Support (a) - The category would group characters with a common descriptive quality so I don't necessarily see this as forcefully labelling. It makes sense that this category would be of interest to some readers, more so than many others (e.g.: Category:Gnome Ball images). With this category, I don't think it would be necessary to create a page for LGBT content or diversity in general.
If the diversity changes are to be grouped somewhere they could be in a subpage of Jagex explaining Jagex's views, actions and strategies on various areas (diversity, MTX, charities, community relations, mental health) in a way that would not cause unnecessary maintenance (a summary of Microtransactions instead of a copy) and that wouldn't be read as advertising (explaining controversies). And I would only mention the diversity changes that are specifically mentioned as such (e.g.: I wouldn't include characters like Morvas, Armadyl, or a complete list of characters pertaining to minorities). - Habblet (talk) 23:36, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Support (a) - It makes sense to have a category. I'm not sure about a diversity page. Jagex's efforts to be inclusive should probably be acknowledged somewhere, at some point, but a category does that, to an extent. Ms ZuZu (talk) 21:10, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Closed - There is consensus to add a category for LGBT characters. There is not a consensus to add a page outlining diversity ingame, though one may still be created if it's appropriate in the future. --LiquidTalk 19:08, 24 April 2020 (UTC)