Forum:Jagex Wiki Copyright Issues

From the RuneScape Wiki, the wiki for all things RuneScape
Jump to: navigation, search
Forums: Yew Grove > Jagex Wiki Copyright Issues
Archive
This page or section is an archive.
Please do not edit the contents of this page.
This thread was archived on 5 November 2012 by Spineweilder.

For those of you unaware, here has been a discussion regarding copyright of text and images on a talk page of a Jagex Wiki article for some time now. As of yesterday, the copyright team at Jagex has finally issued a response. For the full reponse, see here, for the discussion on the issue scroll up and press Toggle comments.

Unsurprisingly the response from Jagex has stated that:

  • Images are copyright of Jagex and are free to be used on the Jagex Wiki.
  • Text must not infringe the intellectual property or other rights of any third party.

As far as images are concerned, there is apparently some note discouraging editor from uploading images that they did not take, but whether that actually works remains to be seen. Any images that are already there will not be deleted. As a point of interest, the copying of images is not limited to the Jagex Wiki. Some of you may recognise the image used on the Timeline representing While Guthix Sleeps as being a recently replaced Featured Image.

With regards to removing plagiarised or close-copied text, we are discouraged from removing it from the page, but instead emailing jagex's copyright team with details of the infringement.

Full instructions, as quoted from the page linked to above, are as follows:

If you have a complaint that arises because you believe your copyright is being used without your permission, please do the following -
  • Clearly identify the web page and section where the content is present;
  • Clearly identify the specific issue which you are raising, and reference the specific relevant elements of the Content Standards Policy;
  • Describe the work, and why you believe you have ownership rights in it, including attaching sufficient evidence to prove your ownership;
  • Include a statement that you ‘Have a good faith belief that the use of the content described herein is not authorised by the copyright owner (or by a third party who is legally entitled to do so on behalf of the copyright owner) and is not otherwise permitted by law, and the information I have provided in this notice is accurate, complete and I am the copyright owner or authorised to act on behalf of the copyright owner’;
  • Explain to us how the work allegedly infringes copyright;
  • Include a physical or electronic signature of a person who owns the intellectual property right or who is authorised to act on behalf of the person;
  • If you are not the copyright owner, describe your relationship with the copyright owner;
  • Provide your contact details, including your email address and full name, so that we may contact you; and
  • Send an email with all of the above information to [email protected]

Whilst the above is more for information that anything else, I would suggest gathering all the pages we know to be plagiarised or paraphrased, and emailing the copyright team at Jagex in an effort to get said content removed. This is likely to be a lengthy wait if the statement from the team regarding this issue is anything to go by, but we have little choice. cqm 12:02,17/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

Discussion[edit source]

The main problem seems to be Jagex's actual level of caring about copyrights on RuneScape. If you didn't know, I am the player Avogadro who removed a number of plagiarised/closely-paraphrased edits and posted on behalf of Cook Me Plox, who at the time was unable to due to his membership status. All of my edits were reverted by Mod Chris F (who even took the liberty of deleterevisioning some of them); then, a number of his were reverted back to mine by another player. Once I had another chance to speak with Cook, he gave me a second response to add which seems to have been what sparked their response. Why it took that long for them to copy-paste a response is beyond me; however, I'd rather not bitch about and just address the final two points (counting the latter two as one):

  • If you are not the copyright owner, describe your relationship with the copyright owner;
  • Provide your contact details, including your email address and full name, so that we may contact you; and
  • Send an email with all of the above information to [email protected]
  1. Who is the copyright holder for us? It could the obvious answer; or should we come up with something that's actually convenient for us? We are a collaborative effort, after all. How do we answer this point?
  2. The question I want answered more:
    Who will represent us? For the sake of being organised (I use that word to avoid reusing "convenience"), I believe it would be in our best interests to choose a single user who will effectively remain on top of this issue, or perhaps two, three, maybe more; I don't believe the situation is that out of hand. Whether we agree with Jagex or not, it'd be the best of both world to keep communication between a single ambassador for the wiki and Jagex.

I'm resetting the indent for my sig. MolMan 16:25, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I'd say all of us, as contributors, are included in the licencing of the content, and thus authorised to act for the copyright holder (all of us, under the CC licence). So, anybody with an edit could do it. And I agree on the point about having a single user. -- Cycloneblaze (user - talk - contribs) 17:29, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
To make things simple I would suggest using one of the editors who represent us on the Fansite forums: Ryan, Cook or Fergs seeing as they are already contacts for fansite issues. As for the ownership of the material I would think it sufficient to draw their attention to our [[w:Community Central:Licensing|license]], as none of us own our edits. cqm 18:02,17/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)
(as indicated by my hover-over of the underlined task) I'm kinda looking for it to be Cook, as he's really on top of this more than anyone else as I've seen. My approach for the copyright wasn't that we owned our individual edits, but rather that everyone owned every edit; that we, as a collective group, hold the copyright. Basically what the license says, but in a more (i dunno) poetic(?) way. MolMan 18:13, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - the timeline also uses this image, this image, a frame from this gif, and this revision from [[:File:The G.E. 2.png|this image]]. --Iiii I I I 19:23, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Jagex claims that using our images of their game is not in violation of any copyright. So we're sitting ducks there.
Here's the quotes:
Materials (including without limit all information, software, data, text, photographs, graphics, sound and video) placed on any Jagex Product by us or on our behalf are protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights of ourselves or our business partners / suppliers / advertisers. You may not use these materials or any Jagex Product except in accordance with these terms and conditions and for personal (i.e. non-commercial) use only.
The first part that I have highlighted explains why images were not deleted by Jagex moderators - although any cropping or transparency was completed by fansites, the images themselves still belong to Jagex. Personally I find that having images that are the same on different sites, other than official images, like wallpapers for example, is counterproductive. However, this is not illegal for these images to be on our website/wiki. As a compromise I will write this into the images policy that images from fansites are discouraged and require permission of the person who took/edited them, but remember that these images cannot be removed from the wiki for copyright issues.
So... yeah... MolMan 19:41, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
I only noticed the WGS image due it recently going through RS:FIMG. It doesn't surprise me to discover there are more on the timeline, nor would it if this was not an isolated case. I pointed the WGS image to find the JMod responsible for the wiki cannot touch the images on the timeline although said she would look into getting the image replaced. In short, it's going nowhere, although the JMod responsible for the timeline is possibly the laziest one I've come across. How hard is it to login to your own game to get images? In the meantime, we can tag images on the Jagex wiki with <{{FansiteContent}} for a minor attribution and hope someday they get replaced but we cannot link back to RSWiki due to the filters/policies on the Jagex Wiki. I think this is a case of we'll have to take what we can get. cqm 20:35,17/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)
When the timeline came out, I managed to identify this list of files they stole. JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 15:59, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I think this is about as decent of a policy as we could have expected to get from the Jagex Wiki. It's markedly different and more bureaucratic than what we were told to do by the fansite team (just delete any offending content), but it's good enough.

The issue of who owns the copyright is vague at best -- while it's all CC-BY-SA, the editor who actually wrote the content holds the copyright. This can get complicated since a lot of the people who wrote the content are no longer around to serve DMCA notices. For that reason I'd like to have a single person interface directly with Jagex on the text copyrights, instead of a hodgepodge of people who don't fully understand what they're doing. Since I've kind of been taking the lead on the copyright situation with regards to the Jagex Wiki, I would prefer if that person were myself.

Agency law requires that the principals (in this case the copyright holders, the editors) authorize an agent (me) to act on behalf of the group. I don't believe that this needs to be a legal authorization (in spite of what Jagex wrote above), and if I just went ahead and claimed to be acting on behalf of the entire wiki I doubt anyone would be any the wiser. Still, I'd feel more comfortable about being aggressive on the copyright if there was some written statement (consensus) that authorized me to send the DMCA-type notices. So just sign your name below if you're okay with that. Shouldn't be any problem and we close that section real quickly and I can get on with sending the notices.

As for the images, it's a matter of semantics -- we already knew that we didn't own the copyright to the pictures, and we just thought the Jagex Wiki could do better than to copy them from us. We got that, and we can use that {{FansiteContent}} template where necessary. ʞooɔ 03:19, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Authorize Cook to act on behalf of the copyright holders[edit source]

To clarify, this would be for the entire wiki, not just signatories. ʞooɔ 10:04, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

--Iiii I I I 03:23, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

--svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 03:23, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

--UltimateKuriboh (talkcontribs) 03:24, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

--

 a proofreader ▸ 

03:25, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 05:12, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'm 222 and I approve this cook. Cook needs to learn to spell. 222 talk 07:23, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hear hear. Ronan Talk 07:31, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

cqm 08:03,18/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

Cause Obama. Hunter cape (t).png Sentra246Blue hallowe'en mask.png 08:47, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I don't get all this legal xcvbnmm,asdf so I'd be glad to get cook to do all the work for us JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 10:14, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 18:19, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Qwerty. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 18:27, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 18:49, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Prepare mine body for consumption, if it pleases you. MolMan 18:53, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Mariners suck. Top hat (blue).pngLashaziortalkBlack cane.png 18:56, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much per joey. Achievements Coelacanth0794 Talk Contribs 00:30, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

cook for president bad_fetustalk 00:40, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

For what it matters Jagex named me Able Tis (talk) 00:47, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'll expect regular payments for handing over my legal duties to you, though. ajr 12:43, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Do it. --Aburnett(Talk) 04:06, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

--Touhou FTW Zaros symbol.png 05:18, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Means the last time you'll ever ask me to send an email to Jagex about it Dragon longsword.png Cire04 TalkAttack.png 10:19, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Yup, go for it. — Jr Mime (talk) 17:11, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

Questions for the above[edit source]

You said above that CC-BY-SA specifies that the content is written by the owner. For people that don't sign, are you just going to assume they'd be okay with you going out on their behalf? Seems a little pointless then for this authorisation. Slayer helmet (c).pngImmo Voted Worst Wikian 2013 Slayer cape (t).png 21:38, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

If you have an objection, voice it. If others do, they'll voice them too. Ronan Talk 21:39, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Law trumps policy. If you do not explicitly authorise Cook to be your copyright agent for you, then if he requests that something be taken down, which you wrote, he has no legal standing to do so.  a proofreader ▸  21:43, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
This isn't some wiki policy, it's a binding legal tenet of CC-BY-SA. If we're going to break that by just letting Cook put out DMCAs on anyones content, this authorisation is a waste of time Slayer helmet (c).pngImmo Voted Worst Wikian 2013 Slayer cape (t).png 21:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
<text that immo and prewf duplicated removed> And additionally, a direct quote from that link: "However, in discussions regarding policy change, silence may not necessarily imply consent." (bold in the original)
In this case, I'm not signing to authorize this, because I don't yet have an opinion. I don't want to oppose, but at the same time I don't want to just rubber-stamp it by not opposing just yet. What I wrote just now may or may not make sense -- I'm not great at writing stuff, but hopefully my intent will be clear. Michagogo (talk) 21:47, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
It's not like Cook is planning to go slap-happy with this authorisation (he could do fine without it, in fact), he just wants to make everything easier by having us relinquish "ownership" to him (something which 90% of us don't know anything about but in which he is a modest expert). I honestly doubt Cook has plans to do anything beyond what is best for us. MolMan 22:02, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Should point out that nobody is relinquishing anything to anybody. You all would still own the copyright on everything, and you'd still be entitled to enforce it. ʞooɔ 00:20, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
That's not the point. The point is that if he puts out DMCAs on peoples content who have not authorised him, he's in violation of CC-BY-SA Slayer helmet (c).pngImmo Voted Worst Wikian 2013 Slayer cape (t).png 22:10, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Rereading what cook has stated, there is no crystal clear answer on who owns what; in this situation, I believe we're fine. MolMan 22:12, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
From Above: "The issue of who owns the copyright is vague at best -- while it's all CC-BY-SA, the editor who actually wrote the content holds the copyright" Slayer helmet (c).pngImmo Voted Worst Wikian 2013 Slayer cape (t).png 22:14, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
Immo has a very good point, that I would have no legal basis to force Jagex to take down all content copied from this wiki unless every possible editor signs the thing above. Since I'm sure at least one of them is dead, that's not actually going to happen. In that sense, this authorization holds very little water legally. That being said, agency laws also allow for implicit consent, which in this case would mean that a reasonable editor, by submitting their content here, gives implicit authorization for the admins (or other users) to defend their copyright. I'm not super familiar with agency law so I'll refrain from making further statements on it, but let it be known that CC-BY-SA enforcement and wikis do not go together well. It's also important to recognize that this isn't that important -- Jagex has made it clear that they really doesn't care about the copyrighted stuff, and it's not like I'm doing anything major. Is this a perfect solution? Nope. Is it better than leaving the plagiarized stuff up? Definitely. Is it legal? Maybe. ʞooɔ 00:20, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
So basically... we're sitting ducks on the pictures and confused quackers on the text? D: MolMan 00:25, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Comment - Instead of focusing on whether one person has the legal right to request the content be removed, perhaps we should use the license to our advantage. CC-BY-SA says copying content is fine, provided there is attribution. This can be through templates, importing history, or even edit summaries, as long as a link to the original source is there. Such attribution is never going to happen as long as the external link filters on the wiki are in place. If we present ourselves as acting on behalf of the editors who have not been attributed correctly, I don't see how Jagex can refuse us. I very much doubt anyone at Jagex is familiar with CC-BY-SA based on it being an american license, so perhaps we can gloss over that we don't have the express permission of everyone here by focusing more on the license itself. I doubt anyone here is happy with having their edits on the Jagex wiki. cqm 00:40,19/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

The copyright holder would still need to be the one to deal with that. ʞooɔ 00:41, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
I don't feel edit summaries is enough. And all others, jagex simply won't do that. MolMan 00:42, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
Attribution in edit summaries is fine. It came up on [[w:Forum:Stealing my pages...|central]] a while back. cqm 11:07,19/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)
Attribution is not enough for the official wiki to use our contents. Since they would only meet one of the 2 conditions: attributing and using the same or a similar license, they are still not allowed to use our content. Only if they'd change their license to one similar to CC-BY-SA, they are allowed to use our contents with attribution. How is it that this hasn't been shoved in Jagex's faces before? JOEYTJE50TALKpull my finger 15:35, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
It's because they don't actually know/care how CC-BY-SA works. One of the mods there actually told the editors there to look at WP:PARAPHRASE as a model for copying content from here, apparently not understanding that paraphrasing was only allowed with compatible licenses. They're just clueless. ʞooɔ 16:23, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Question - Why don't we ask the Wikia legal team how to deal with issues like these? <.< sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 00:46, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

They say they can't do anything because of the way the copyright is fragmented between all the editors. ʞooɔ 00:46, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
So basically they don't care about their own content.. Kay. sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 00:48, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
It's our content up until the point that we want to take it away. But that's a story for another day. ʞooɔ 00:50, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe that should be [email protected]@ sssSp7p.pngIjLCqFF.png 00:53, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
It's snarky bullshit targetted at me Slayer helmet (c).pngImmo Voted Worst Wikian 2013 Slayer cape (t).png 01:27, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
...Que? ʞooɔ 01:34, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
I assumed that was aimed at the idea of us trying to up sticks and move sites. To make sure we aren't competing with ourselves we'd need to find some way to remove all the content here, which Wikia isn't going to be a huge fan of. cqm 11:07,19/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)
why on earth are we back on moving hosts Ronan Talk 15:04, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
To clarify, I wasn't suggesting it - there's more problems than solutions with moving in my mind. cqm 15:10,19/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

Comment - I emailed Wikia to see if they had any advice for us with this. I didn't see . A full response can be seen here, although an extract can be seen below.

...the [DMCA takedown] notice does not have to come from the first author of any given article. Whoever had made the most recent edit should be in a position to send the notification. You might even be able to make a few minor edits on a page yourself, and then for DMCA purposes you would be the author of the current version.

Wikia aren't willing to act as legal representatives as Cook states, or even get involved as far as I can tell, nor is semanticdrifter a lawyer, but I'd hope the quoted material has been case tested somewhere or comes from some knowledge of CC-BY-SA. I would doubt making null edits by AWB would allow someone to claim ownership of articles, but enabling general fixes or spelling corrections might count, assuming they can be made on the relevant articles. cqm 23:48,19/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

Whelp...that's not what they told me Lol. Semanticdrifter wrote a blog on central about CC-BY-SA, so I assume he has some idea of how it works. If nobody minds, I'll make small changes to relevant articles and send The Stuff out immediately. I guess that makes my authorization section rather farcical. ʞooɔ 00:25, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that section was a "see how many friends cook has". Lol 222 talk 05:21, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think I'm his friend. I'm probably better described as "that annoying, little, kiss-ass peer". MolMan 17:05, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
You think you're MY peer?! ʞooɔ 17:47, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
Fixed. MolMan 17:48, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

Worst-case - So what happens if the infringing content does not get removed? 222 talk 05:21, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

We sit here playing with Joey's new turtle? cqm 23:18 • 22/10/2012 (UTC) (UTC)

Close - Cook will be authorized to act on behalf of the copyright holders. -- Recent uploads SpineTalkGuest book 21:23, November 5, 2012 (UTC)