Forum:Image Policy

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Forums: Yew Grove > Image Policy
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This thread was archived on 12 August 2008 by Xdragonaite.
UnArchive this discussion please, there were no legitamate arguments against it yet the policy has not changed.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Degenret01 (talk).

I think we need a nice big clickable link on the main page that leads our current users to the image policy, because while going through the new image gallery, I'm seeing alot of personal images, most of which are those ugly stat sigs. The members of the RS Wiki need to be reminded that uploading personal images for their userpages isn't allowed, and that they need to upload them to imageshack. Hell, even a tutorial would suffice. All you gotta do is explain how to upload an image to imageshack, then to use that image here, just put the image's URL. It's not hard to do. No tags are needed to put ImageShack'd photos on the wiki. Just copy the URL of the image into your page and you're done. Anyone with me on this? Maybe we could add it to the sitenotice, like Due to frequent uploading of personal images, we'd like to remind you of our Image Policy and link "Image Policy" to the image policy page. 22:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Abit offtopic, but thank you Skill for deleting the items I had tagged :) 23:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
What kind of "personal images" are you referring to here? In going through the recently deleted images, I'm not exactly sure that such a policy needs to be so strictly enforced as it is here. I certainly am allowed considerably more latitude on Wikipedia where nearly everything I've casually looked at with the deletion log would have been accepted (in the context of that wiki).
What is wrong with stat sigs anyway? We could set up something that would allow a "preference" to be able to turn off loading those sigs if you don't want to see them through templates or something similar, and I personally find the current enforcement of this to be a bit too aggressive. That plus screen captures of your own character that would (presumably) be put on your user page.
I would agree that perhaps there ought to be some sort of general limit to this kind of activity, and certainly it should all be Runescape-related (aka no image repository for other websites), but please.... what is wrong with allowing somebody to show off their favorite costume or a picture of their P.O.H. on their user page?
From my experience, I would rather that they be managed locally by admins here and not have to rely upon admins at ImageShack.... unless they are completely unrelated to Runescape in any way shape or form. I certainly haven't heard any complaints from Wikia about running out of image server storage space, or that somehow this project is abusing that option with the current load of images.
If the stat sigs have a copyright issue that needs to be addrerssed... OK, that is something worth discussing. But I don't see that as an issue here or why it such a big deal to you. If this is genuinely a bandwidth issue on the part of Wikia (aka users are loading up stat sigs here and using them on BBSs that are non-Wikia) that is another issue as well. But show that is a problem first before throwing them out. --Robert Horning 01:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't even know why uploading personal images to the wiki is against the rules if Wikia has unlimited media space. But if it is against the rules, I believe we have a problem. Users are always uploading personal images all the time and then they are clueless when they are deleted. Once they realise they're not supposed to upload personal images, they look for the article about their image and add it to the article as well as their userpage (even if it is a duplicate). I think there is not much we can do about it though and a link on the main page could maybe do a little difference but users tend to just create an account, make a userpage and then upload all their personal images here without looking at policies, main page, rules, etc. Chicken7 >talk 01:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a policy that has been established by the "community" here on this wiki, not necessarily something that is being forced upon us by Wikia. What I'm taking issue with is the interpretation of what is intended by Wikia.... that this not become an image dumping ground like imageshack or Flicker. I'm not even advocating for such a thing either.
I'm just trying to raise the issue here that perhaps we don't have to be so hard-nosed about a certain class of "personal images" that certainly can be considered related to the topic of this wiki: Runescape. Keep in mind, it isn't Wikia that is deleting these images, it is admins that are working on this project. This is a community decision, and I'm raising the issue here to see if there may be support to "changing" the current policy, or at least clarifying what a "personal image" might be in terms of this policy.
No, I don't think it is appropriate to upload gigabytes of images from your last vacation, pictures from your birthday party, or having dozens of other random images that have nothing to do with the game. But that isn't what I'm talking about with a good many of the recently deleted images. This is a policy that can be changed, and it certainly isn't engraven in blood with Jimbo Wales' finger. I'm talking something reasonable here, and suggesting that perhaps we are being too hardnosed about the whole concept of personal images. --Robert Horning 01:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. That's what I've been trying to say for a while. The only "problem" with personal game screenshots is that "it will clog the servers", when we have unlimited space. Besides, deleting an image will just take up even more data (even though something is "deleted", all revisions are still stored on the Wikia servers, so all it does is conceal it from all non-sysops. On top of that, there's the aspect of the deletion being logged.).
With taking out the whole data subject, why delete them? Some people (like me) get "omfg this site is super-unsafe leave and never come back!!!111one" notices whenever going to an image holding site, so this is not only a good option, but a final option.
I mean, come on. They are only 100KB at the most, when most are less than 10KB. My talk page is 21.2MB, and you don't see any restrictions or anything on that. It would take 212 large personal images to equal the data in a talk page. But what about a few reasonably sized images? Maybe 30KB. It's no big deal. Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!Loon is best buttlord 02:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, so the discussion has changed to whether personal "RuneScape" related images are welcome on the Wiki. I would have to put a Neutral/Pending on such a policy/rule because I think we'll be bombarded with images and if we have thousands of users their all going to want to upload like "The first time i killed a Tz-Tok-Jad" or "My POH Kitchen", "My POH Bedroom", etc.... With all the users doing this we will have thousands of personal images. And if we ever change our minds there will be heaps of deletions. And Wikia might get annoyed with the amount of space we are using. They must have a limit to storage space. Robert and Chia have brought up good points though. But people won't come here to make a talk page. They'll come and uload their armour outfit and their POH, make their userpage and then disappear. Maybe I'll support if there is a limit to the number of personal images you can have but it would be hard to keep track of. Chicken7 >talk 02:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Well yes, then it would be a problem. I think a limit would have to be put in place, maybe 10 images, or something? Dragon medium helm! Whaddaya know?Chiafriend12Better than rune!Loon is best buttlord 03:00, 16 June 2008 (UTC)~
I would support a general limit like that in terms of images per person, and those images must be on an actual page, not just uploaded somewhere and forgotten. In other words, those images must be used on the wiki somewhere, even if they are of a personal nature. A limit of 10 such personal images is quite reasonable, with strong encouragement to keep it well below that. --Robert Horning 04:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. I like that limit as a policy. Chicken7 >talk 04:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
That sounds pretty good. And thinking long term, would there be a way to track if someone logs on every 6 months or so? Because if they leave for 6 months, we might as well delete those pics (if they are only being used on that persons user page). And maybe find a way to ensure users name the pics about the costume, so the same pic is not uploaded 600 times. How many do we need of someone in full dragon with a Santa? Could we list all the "personal pics" so people will be able to check if the one they are uploading is already there?--Degenret01 07:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

< --- resetting tabs for ease of discussion

Certainly there is a way to scan user contribution logs to check if they have been active for the past six months, and I suppose we could develop a tool that could scan through user contributions to find out when the last time that the user logged in.

Mainly, I see this as a way to be doing a recent changes patrol and notice somebody who is uploading a whole bunch of images all at once. By setting a limit, you can either tell the (presumably new) user that they need to slow down and not go overboard, and point to the "official policy" as a reason why they can't have a couple dozen "personal images" about their character. This would be particularly if the person uploading the content has just created the account, uploads the images, and never contributes to the wiki again.

As for long-time users that contribute to many other parts of the wiki and only upload a couple images every other month or so.... I wouldn't be so paranoid about the issue. If you happen to come across somebody like this who has gone past the limit, a more gentle reminder may be in order to keep things under control but I would find it unlikely that they are going to go past the limit anyway. It is likely that the user is going to be disruptive and have attention placed on them if it becomes a serious problem (see the discussion in the previous section), and have a great many other issues as well.

Again, I don't think we need to get aggressive here. I certainly was a user who came in, made a couple of edits, and then left for six months only to come back and become a significant contributor. I'm willing to assume good faith and presume most users have the best of intentions when trying to add content.

As for scanning to see what other images a user has uploaded (if you think it may be excessive), I would suggest checking Special:Logs and entering the user's name. For most users, this is usually page moves and image uploads.... again, I seriously doubt that a major contributor is going to be a problem here. It would likely be somebody who is trying to upload a whole bunch of images all at once and/or be a vandal anyway in other ways that would be a problem. --Robert Horning 12:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

There has been no discussion on this topic for a while now, and still personal images are being deleted on a regular basis (yes in accordance with current policy). It seems that most who have discussed this see no harm in allowing a few personal pics that are rs based. Does anyone have a valid argument against? (Besides "cuz we shouldn't") And if no one does, does some sysop then just come along and add it to our policy? Oh, and maybe add that the pics should be named after the outfit worn, so we don't get multiple identical pic uploads? Is this agreeable?--Degenret01 06:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a wiki, not a social blog spot. We have user pages, forums, and talk pages. Chia encouraged me to type this up just because I brought it up in game, so that's what I think.Yellow partyhat.png Ilyas Talk Contribs 22:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the rule is to generic, what we need is no personal immages of people of their personal life. For Example if you want you should be able to upload a funny picture from Runescape like i have on my page. However, PERSONAL pictures like family, pictures around town and such should not be uploaded. --Scaredsox

I'm definitely FOR this new policy on images, I think that we users should be able to upload our images, but of course there should be some kinda rule preventing silly people from spamming on pics of their favorite pets. Until just recently, I was trying up upload and reupload a personal image of my character. I didn't even know until I read the image policy that I had to use ImageShack! Suggestion: there should be a limit on the # of pictures a single user can upload. Maybe those images can only be used by that single user, so there are not people creating accounts for the sole purpose of image-ing? Check out my new sig!
Blue partyhat.png User:Polyjuice3 File:Hit.png

I see no need for the rule against personal images to be changed, this wouldn't benefit the wiki in any way conceivable to myself. This is a wiki, our goal is to build a comprehensive guide of the runescape universe, we're not a social networking site and should not be treated as such.

Helm of neitiznot (charged).png Azaz129 Crystal shield.png Talk Edits Contribs

21:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC) I'm completely for this new policy. From what I read, personal RS images are proposed to be allowed, but with a per-user limit? Correct me if I'm wrong. That's what I like the sound of, though.

InstantWinstonDragon 2h sword old.pngold edits | new edits

01:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Azaz and Ilyas missed it. Personal images in this context means Runescape personal images. Of your character and such. Not you the person.--Degenret01 01:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand perfectly fine that we're talking about runescape personal images, I still don't see the need to allow this though. 02:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I agree there is no need for it, but how many of the things on this wiki are needed. If we allowed only needed articles and pics this wiki would be a much poorer place. So explain the harm and damage that would be caused by allowing it. I further believe that personal being allowed would be beneficial by showing a greater variety of all the costumes and looks available to the player, it would just look better. And remember, this is not a strictly encyclopediac site.--Degenret01 12:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree not everything we have on this wiki is needed per se, I still see no benefit to this, imageshack and photobucket have worked fine. As to your statement saying that personal images "would be beneficial by showing a greater variety of all the costumes and looks available to the player" the image site hosted images do the same thing. I've yet to see a concrete reason as to why we should allow this. 15:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
The issue I have with Imageshack and Photobucket is mainly a situation of monitoring content and maintaining control over the wiki as a whole by the administrators. By permitting image uploads of a more "personal" nature, it is easier to keep track of what is being displayed on various pages and to maintain more consistent policies in regards to content. 3rd party hosting does none of that. On top of this issue, I still have yet to see precisely why there is the massive concern over Wikia data storage, and I have a huge concern over the interpretation of what is a "personal image" on top of all that. I've had images deleted that clearly weren't used for "personal use", and I've seen other images that clearly were of a personal nature but somehow could be "rationalized" by including them in an article somehow.
This also completely misses the point about what the intent and goal of the "no personal images" policy was created in the first place. It is intended to keep Wikia servers from being used as a 3rd party image hosting service for other websites. I happen to agree with that general philosophy, but that is not what is being argued here. We are talking about images related to the theme of this website (Runescape) and that the primary location for viewing those images (likely the only location) would be on web pages directly related to this wiki. If this wiki is seemingly being abused by a user who is only uploading images for use on another website/forum.... by all means those images can and should be deleted. Let's just get it straight what the policy is really about. --Robert Horning 16:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I agree there is no need for it, but how many of the things on this wiki are needed. If we allowed only needed articles and pics this wiki would be a much poorer place. So explain the harm and damage that would be caused by allowing it. I further believe that personal being allowed would be beneficial by showing a greater variety of all the costumes and looks available to the player, it would just look better. And remember, this is not a strictly encyclopediac site.--Degenret01 12:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a whole lot here I don't agree with, and I fail to see how it makes sense. First, every article on the wiki is "needed," we're an encyclopedia.. The wiki is not a poor place now, and I completely fail to see how personal pictures would make it a better place! We decided against user levels and social pages because this isn't a social networking site, and it's still not, so there is nothing wrong with imageshack or photobucket. These images would only be used on userpages anyways, so how would they show a greater variety if people didn't see them? Userpages don't come up under Special:Randompage, so how will this help? At all? And how do you guys even propose knowing how many images someone uploads? You can't possibly track them. And about this not being an encyclopedic site.. wtf are you on? That's what a wiki is. An encyclopedia. Christine 21:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say not every article was needed, I said there are things here that are not needed. So your number 1 is moot. I didn't say the wiki is a poor place, so your number 2 is also moot. As far as image tracking, it's real real easy with all the people we have patrolling recent changes to look at upload logs of users. I do it all the time and I am CERTAIN I am not alone in this. And when I said we not entirely encylopediac, I meant we are much more than one. The guides on training and minigames and quest guides go beyond what one would expect to find in an encyclopedia. So the question should not be what am I on, but why are you so angry? Relax.--Degenret01 23:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There are tons of great Image hosting services, such as bayimg, run by the creators of ThePirateBay, or even ImageShack. It doesn't matter, dude. Wikia isn't here to host your images that some 47 year old will wank off to. Simply put, if it's not for RuneScape or the Wiki, don't put it here. Done whoozy! 03:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Blank, you did not understand anything that was said. This proposal in entirely 100% for Runescape pics. Period. Read a conversation before throwing in nasty irrelevant comments. Thank you.--Degenret01 16:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

First off, I want to apologize in advance for any typo's as I type far faster than my computer at work can process. Secnodly, I strongly disagree with any ideas to change the policy to allow personal pictures. As part of the Wiki communtiy, our main purpose is to provide factual information to all those who seek it. While friends may be made on the wiki, it is not a personal site, or a friend/networking/dating/etc. site. If people wish to create a personal page, they can easily go to a site dedicated to being a social outlet, such as MySpace, Facebook, or any other similar site. I feel that allowing users to upload personal pictures would be a sysop nightmare as they would be uploading any picture they so desire, clogging their userpage with tons of (seemingly) pointless pictures. The policy of requiring personal pictures to be uploaded on a third-party site makes perfect sense, as it saves bandwidth and can more easily be monitored by the staff of the respective site, rather than volunteers and a few staff here and there as we have on the Wiki. As for users loading personal images without knowledge, I think a warning would be sufficient, rather than a large clickable link. Perhaps under the Welcome User template, emphasis can be placed on our image policy, as images take up far more bandwidth than a few lines of text. As some users have previously stated, allowing personal pictures is only going to turn the Wiki into a personal image-hosting site, allowing all of the people who play RuneScape to upload anything they want without fear of the consequences. Even if a limit were placed on a number of personal images, it would be difficult to track unless you planned on going trough every userpage. Also, the idea of creating multiple accounts just to host pictures is a possibility. If people are unable to figure out how to load pictures from ImageShack, PhotoBucket, or anything of the like (even though it is incredibly easy) perhaps a short tutorial could be written and placed under the help pages. I know some basic information already exists, but some people might benefit from a visual guide. If this idea were to be placed in effect, I would gladly write the guides from all of the major image hosting sites. Again, I apologize for any typo's, these computers are really slow. =\ Karlis (talk) (contribs) 17:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I totally fail to understand why people keep discussing social networking stuff in this topic. This topic is 100 percent regarding RUNESCAPE CHARACTER pics. This topic in no way, and at no time, has any hint of a suggestion regarding this other topic. At least Karlis mainly stayed on topic, and discussed reasonably, even though I disagree with him. Thanks Karlis. And for why I disagree, see Roberts part of the discussion.--Degenret01 01:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree here. Karlis missed by a wide margin what is going on here, which isn't trying to deal with "personal pictures" that are unrelated to Runescape. This is an issue to determine guidelines for what is acceptable content on this wiki, and giving tools to administrators to check on what is being placed onto pages of this wiki. I have yet to see legitimate counter-arguments made in terms of why anything at all ought to be uploaded onto ImageShack when the only intended target is a page on this wiki.
A policy that limits the number of a severely more restricted "personal image" definition (which isn't really a part of the current policy) wouldn't be hard to enforce at all. Keep in mind that most vandals do there damage all at once, and anybody who is likely to abuse this policy is going to do it right at the beginning with a whole bunch of images all at once. That is incredibly easy to watch for even with just a routine "Recent Changes" patrol. For long-time users who only upload an image every now and again, I don't see it really being much of a problem either. Special:Logs can be used to scan image uploads very quickly for any given user account, and only the very most active users will have a huge number of images to review and "hide" a number of "personal images".... that I contend are already on this wiki anyway.
This is an issue of content control and maintaining consistent policies in regards to what actually appears on this wiki. Where these images are stored is of secondary importance, but I content it is better to have them in the wiki logs directly and tied to individual user accounts than trying to rely upon policies and policing of these images by 3rd party hosting sites. I also contend that the current attitude among some administrators in the implementation of this policy is an overzealous administration of this "no personal images" policy. --Robert Horning 09:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)