Forum:IRL laws, cache, and consensus

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Forums: Yew Grove > IRL laws, cache, and consensus
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This thread was archived on 2 September 2010 by Aburnett.

Alright. We have had many cache threads, and i think most of what we need to know are on those. Heres one, feel free to provide links to the others. The result, so far, has been no concensus. However, it was also agreed that the cache was against irl laws. If you would like to argue that its NOT against irl laws, feel free to. Even if it was against irl laws, if we reach concensus to allow it, would our concensus be > then irl laws? Im going to try to stay out of this as much as i can, so please no attacks >.>

Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 13:52, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


Don't allow cache images - Today there was a fight in the "r s wikia" clan chat, over a rsmv image, thanks got out of hand, this isnt the first time it happened , it has to be stopped! --Project Myface Parsonsda Talk | Sign Here | Project Myface Project Myface 14:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Allow cache images - Moe is 4210 was given permission to make a thread about the cache images he found be Mod Calm (Dg. 2 - Bosses & Weapons Leak! & Forum Emergencies). I think that was the issue on the CC but I wasn't on, if it was, I'm not trying to drag it up again :P Zaros symbol.png Will14smith Talk HS Ice Barrage icon.png 14:23, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Just because mod calm said dosen't make it so on wiki! --Project Myface Parsonsda Talk | Sign Here | Project Myface Project Myface 14:29, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
No it doesn't but, it does show how jagex feels about itZaros symbol.png Will14smith Talk HS Ice Barrage icon.png 14:32, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, that just shows how Mod Calm feels about it. There have been plenty of things Mods have said and Jagex has later said the opposite as a company. HaloTalk 14:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Off-topic - But Mod Calm is the best mod!Zaros symbol.png Will14smith Talk HS Ice Barrage icon.png 14:39, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, but we'll have to discuss that in another place, and you should fix you signature, so other people don't have to clean up after you. I'll try and figure out why it's broken though. HaloTalk 14:47, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - As long as we avoid speculation, I don't really care. HaloTalk 14:36, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Only is it was for new items, not if it was for a higher quality image of an existing item Zaros symbol.png Will14smith Talk HS Ice Barrage icon.png 14:39, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I believe we can get the same quality whether it's in cache or in game...your statement has somewhat confused me. HaloTalk 14:47, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
All thats stated would be that these images are items in the cache but not in game... what is that speculating on? I dont approve of the "these are the next dung bosses" idea. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 14:51, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
If we are talking about Tier 11 Dungeoneering equipment, we already have images of the missing pieces (as well as stats), from the game manual. HaloTalk 14:55, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
No, im talking about unreleased bosses- err, i mean models that are in the cache but not in game. Doesn't really matter though does it? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:00, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Erm, Ignore my comment, I've read it and it make no sense :L Zaros symbol.png Will14smith Talk HS Ice Barrage icon.png 14:57, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I think what you were trying to say was that we should only post the images if they are of a higher quality than existing images, but not for unconfirmed new content. Although I agree with this sentiment, the cache images are generally low-quality, so it doesn't really work in practice. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 16:03, August 9, 2010 (UTC) 

Comment - *asplodes* By the way, Local, State, National and International (and interplanetary, lol) Law all come before what a few internet hangers have to say. Also, I say we allow all cache images, but it is futile trying to get consensus on this. Chicken7 >talk 06:22, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I have stayed far far away from these threads so far, however I feel like it may be safe to comment here. I don't think that cache images should be allowed because I cannot think of any way to reasonably manage them. For instance the music cape image that has become synonymous with the cache. Where do we put that? Do we create an article, music cape, and put it there? Absolutely not, its complete speculation. Do we put it on Capes of accomplishment? Well that's speculating that it is indeed a cape of accomplishment. It could be a similar looking cape that is used for a completely different purpose. Do we put it in a gallery in the Jagex cache article? If we did, that article would become nothing more than a useless repository for every strange image we find in the cache. Furthermore, we have to consider exactly why these models are in the cache. I think that these images are made for 2 reasons, for fun, and "might as well". I figure that images like the dragon pickaxe and the music cape were made for fun. There was no real need to do it, but the developers were bored. That explains why the dragon pickaxe model looked very primitive - because there wasn't a lot of time spent on it. The music cape was probably an extremely easy one as well. Just copy the other capes and paste new colors and an icon over it. If I were in their shoes, I'd do things like that all the time. The second reason, "might as well," mostly comes into play for the runecrafting things. See with things like talismen and talismen staves, its the same model, just with a different logo and colour scheme. When developers go and create all these models, even though there's no soul counterpart and no real plans to make it, they figure "its such a small extra effort and we're probably going to release it later anyways, so I might as well..." For those all reasons, I think that there is no encyclopedic value in adding cache images to the wiki. There's nowhere really to put them, and their presence in the cache is not significant since there are any number of non-game-development reasons for them to be there. I realise that my opinions are speculative in nature, however it is no more speculative than assuming that they are there for a reason. Just my 7 cents. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 06:44, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Woah, text-wall much. Nice argument, but frankly I really doubt we will achieve consensus here. My viewpoint may change in the near-future. 222 talk 06:53, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
Very nicely written. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 01:30, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Neutral - Per Chicken (I know it was a Comment). It is very futile to get consensus on this. And I don't have any lawyer friends, perhaps someone who does can ask nicely for an explanation. 222 talk 06:51, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - The law is above anything anyone here has to say in my opinion. With stuff like ACTA coming to major countries (it regulates the Internet and whatnot), I'd rather not do something before Jagex releases an official company statement. I don't care what Mod Calm say, or any other Mod for that matter. We just shouldn't play with fire on this one, because Jagex as a company could burn us badly. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 17:21, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

" By the way, Local, State, National and International (and interplanetary, lol) Law all come before what a few internet hangers have to say." not according to Murd3rlogist and some other people i was arguing with in the cc the other day. And this isn't about concesus, its about making stuff clear. Degen claims that "cache images arn't against the law", while leftiness claims they are. Rowjy claims that the result of the other threads was that cache images arn't allowed, but i disagree on this. I just want to know what the actual rule(s) are, not change them. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:44, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

I never realized that you were Zarchills =/ BUKKITZ WEEL SMITE YOU!!!Murd3rlogistTalk Contribs Sign here 14:54, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Ok...well, now you do. No comments on the discussion though? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:39, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I must say, chaos, that that would involve hiring lawyers, paying court fees, prepairing their arguement, and setting a court date, all just to remove some images from a fansite- this would cause them to LOSE large amounts of money even if they win, as well as make them look like they are bullying fansites, and likely anger a large portion of the player base causing them to lose EVEN MORE money. They are not going to do this. Maby we should follow the law just to look honerable and because we expect it from others, but theres not a chance of jagex doing anything more then sending a few mods to "inform" us that we are breaking in game rules. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:50, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I know that they wouldn't take us to court, but it would really, really tick them off. Do we want to tick off the company that we made an ENTIRE wiki for? I sure has hell don't want to, and I'm sure there are many others who don't to either. This issue should have died a long time ago when it was brought to the YG because of the stolen Dragon Pickaxe picture. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 18:01, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

the most they could do was not reconise us, as they do with zybez. zybes continues to function successfully though, as would we. oh, and if your going to call the d pick stolen then call all images stolen... no difference. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 18:06, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
I'd rather have the wiki put in a good light by Jagex so that we may gain members that could be the future of the wiki than look like a shady site that goes against what Jagex wants from a site. If Jagex had said the Runescape Wiki was not a good site (though when I came here they didn't recognize any sights, but let's be hypothetical here), I'dve never come here. As for the D Pick image, there's a fine difference between that and a screenshot that someone took that Jagex said was alright to use here, so yes there is a difference. Everything else can be seen in the topic that Liquid has posted below, where I also commented awhile back. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 03:57, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Strong oppose anything that allows the cache - I've said plenty in the past, and anyone interested can take a gander at my comments on the past RSMV threads (such as Forum:Fair Use and the RSMV. and Forum:Fair Use and the RSMV./Archive). I'm not going to bother typing it out again, nor am I going to bother with copying and pasting. --LiquidTalk 00:14, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Notice - Anyone wishing to read over previous RSMV discussions may find a list of them, in chronological order, at the top of Talk:Jagex cache. That is all. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 04:16, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Question - Where does it say that we cannot have cache images- the old threads reached no concensus, so the status quo prevailed- but isn't the status quo that we allow them? Not once, other then on these threads, have I see any mention of cache images in our policys. Furthermore, I believe mod Calm changes everything, as you can no longer argue that jagex is opposed to these. If jagex had any problem with Calm's postings, they could easily hide him and have a higher ranking mod lock Moe's thread. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:08, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

LAW is LAW - If you break it Wikia will be blamed and Wikia will sue you. It's best we just not deal with it. I'm also tempted to enforce the grammar Nazi law, Firefox is freaking out with red underlined words on this page. Kthx bai — Enigma 20:02, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

They will only sue us if Jagex complains, something that would mean losses for both us and jagex. I can almost gurentee that jagex won't do this, but i do see an arguement for following the law aways. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 21:25, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

No cache images - Per the arguments made time and time again. --Aburnett(Talk) 21:21, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Thou shalt not use RSMV images - There's stuff in there that won't be release (ex. music cape) and would just open the flood gates for speculation and possibly legal mumbo jumbo (big fancy words). Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 07:20, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

No cache images - The recent release of the Dungeoneering master cape is a prime example of why we should NOT use Cache images. The master cape that was found in the cache looked like a normal skillcape with a primal helmet on it - allowing cache images to be used would lead to problems such as these. Armadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png 08:34, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear

This is NOT just another attempt at getting stuff passed- Mod Calm CONFIRMED that cache images are allowed on the forums, so we can conclude that jagex doesn't have a problem with them, or at least realises every1 is looking at them and being opposed to it is useless. Please ajust your votes below if you wish. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I believe the length of my comment displays the complexity of this issue. I've been reading about this for months, and the following is a compilation of my work; I respect those in disagreement of my position, and I hope that they can at least respect the research that I've done by providing facts, information, and sources in their rebuttals.

First, whether Jagex would press charges and whether we could get caught is irrelevant. Moving on, I believe we are in agreement that the cache images are the property of Jagex. Jagex made the models; they own the rights. The question here is whether we have the right to access the cache and use those images, and I say we don't.

As I said, we are in agreement that the images are the property of Jagex: since Jagex has the rights, the images are protected under Section 106 of the US Copyright code, that they hold all rights to reproduce, prepare derivatives, distribute copies, perform, display, and in every other way use the work. One way to give someone else the right to use the work is to give them a license. Since we have no license, we depend on Fair Use, detailed in Section 107.

Those who don't have ownership or a license to use the work may use the work for such purposes deemed legal by Section 107. These purposes include criticism and comment; those are our purposes and the sole reason we're legally able to make this wiki. Fair Use would be a valid reason for using the RSMV images, but it doesn't apply to this case.

I cite Section 1201 (a): "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." Further down, in Section 1201 (c), is a statement that raised trouble previously: "Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title." Those two quotes bring me to this US-government-written document which differentiates between measures which prevent unauthorized access of copyrighted work and unauthorized copying of a copyrighted work. Basically, you are allowed to copy text from a PDF and use it under fair use, and you are allowed to record a tv show for fair use, but you aren't allowed to decrypt cache files and post the images on the internet. Section 1201 (c) means that it is not copyright infringement to circumvent an access-prevention measure, like encryption, and use the protected work, but it is, however, still illegal; it's a violation of Section 1201 (a). Again, copyright infringement involves violating rights given to the copyright owner under Section 106; circumventing access-prevention measures is a violation of Section 1201 (a), and those two sections involve completely different crimes.

Another source of information is the trial of Universal City Studios v. Reimerdes. In the case, it is quoted that Congress considers the circumventing of an access-preventing measure described in Section 1201 (a) as "the electronic equivalent of breaking into a locked room in order to obtain a copy of a book." Yes, you can go to the library, read an encyclopedia, and write a paper about it. No, you can't break into the vault and use the 2011 edition that hasn't been released yet.

To be clear, it is agreed that Jagex owns the rights and that we have no license to use the work. It is also proven with several sturdy sources that it is illegal to circumvent an access-prevention measure like encryption so that you may fairly use the work, and it is proven that fair use and copyright infringement have no bearing on the RSMV issue; it involves violation of Section 1201 (a), also called the DMCA. An effective summary of this can be found in the law section of Duke University's website: "Section 1201’s presence in Title 17 of the United States Code belies the fact that it is not truly a copyright law. Section 1201 neither confers nor modifies any property rights. Instead, the statute merely sanctions a new method of protecting copyrighted works--technological access controls." From the same source: "The anti-circumvention provisions of §1201 were intended to 'encourage technological solutions' to piracy by providing legal sanctions against the circumvention of such technology. Realizing that 'what may be encrypted or scrambled often may be decrypted or unscrambled,' Congress thought it necessary to provide an alternate form of protection to those willing to invest in (and implement) 'effective' technological measures. Section 1201 'does not mandate the adoption of any . . . technological protection;' it merely 'takes those technological measures that win adoption because of their efficacy and confers [statutory] protection on them.' If, as Congress suggested, the circumvention of a technological measure designed to protect a copyrighted work truly is 'the electronic equivalent of breaking into a locked room in order to obtain a copy of a book,' providing a legal remedy if the lock fails seems entirely reasonable and appropriate." These statements from Duke University are backed up by the "No Mandate" section of the previously linked government-hosted document and Section 1201 (c) (3) as well as Section 1201 (a) itself.

Further in the Duke University source, they address DeCSS from the Universal v. Reimerdes case; DeCSS decrypts the CSS encryption of DVDs. "The House Judiciary Committee’s section-by-section analysis of §1201 states that 'the practical, commonsense approach taken by the statute is that if, in the ordinary course of its operation, a technology actually works in the defined ways to control access . . . then the ‘effectiveness’ test is met, and the prohibitions of the statute are applicable.' The 'ordinary course of operation' for CSS, the court determined, is confined to those instances 'when DeCSS or some other decryption program is not employed.'" In the ordinary, intended course of operating Runescape, the official Jagex game client at accesses the cache, decrypts it, and uses it to play the game. Anybody who uses the Runescape game or has in their possession any Jagex property, including the cache, is in agreement with Jagex's terms and conditions, and those terms and conditions outline the ordinary operation of the game. The creator of RSMV reverse-engineered the game client, which is against the terms and therefore not in the ordinary operation. He created a tool, RSMV, which is can decrypt the cache, which is outside the ordinary operation, and those who use that tool are performing an action outside the ordinary operation, notwithstanding that the creator violated Section 1201 (a) (2).

Again, in Section 1201 (c) (3), "Nothing in this section shall require the design of ... a response to any particular technoligical measure," which means that Jagex doesn't even have to make a software that's RSMV-resistant; if they tell you not to mess with it, and they've made it un-accessible in its ordinary operation, you can't access it without violating Section 1201 (a), and that's illegal. The cache is in a proprietary format which cannot be accessed without Jagex's decryption methods, which the creator of RSMV basically stole. Granted, the only thing preventing him from stealing was a promise, but promises are legally enforceable in the form of terms and conditions - contracts.

Summarily, Jagex owns Runescape and therefore the cache, fair use is not a valid reason to access the cache because copyright infringement is not applicable to this situation, it is illegal to circumvent an access-prevention measure like encryption, the cache is stored in a proprietary format that is effectively an encryption, and therefore, because of all of this, I call RSMV and its use illegal; we should ban all use of RSMV images on the wiki, and I don't think it would be a bad idea to revise Jagex_cache. Note that a repeal or rewriting of the DMCA, which includes Chapter 12, would bring this ban into question, and note that I personally dislike many effects of the DMCA; this case, at least, is one example of it working properly. Leftiness 22:24, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

So your saying that even if jagex COMES OUT AND ORDERS us to use the image we cannot use them?! What does jagex have to do before we can?! I'm sorry if i sound mad but seriously! Jagex WANTS us to use them as do WE! Its a f'in win win situation, and your rejecting it? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 01:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
If Jagex officially "ordered" us to use the image, we would have the choice to use it if we wanted to. Giving us a license to use the images would accomplish a similar purpose. They would probably give us copies of the images so that one of us wouldn't have to violate Section 1201 (a), though they own all rights, and the only purpose of law is to protect rights, so I'm sure that they could give us permission to to circumvent the access-prevention measure if they decided to. The fact of the matter is: it's ridiculously easy for Jagex to give us the right to use those images. All they have to do is release an official statement that says "Yeah, go ahead and use it." Something in the news on would probably be good enough, though I'm sure there's a more official place to post it. Since it's so easy for them to give us - or anyone clear, full, obvious, legal rights to use the pictures, I have to think that they don't want anyone using the pictures because they haven't given anyone rights. Where did Jagex say they want us to use the pictures from RSMV? Leftiness 02:03, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
It's not encrypted. There is no kind of "digital lock" that's being bypassed to get the models. --Wowbagger421 01:57, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
You can't open the cache files without RSMV or the official game client. It's a unique, proprietary file format that was reverse-engineered by the private server creators at Moparisthebest. Anybody in possession of any Jagex intellectual property, including the cache, agrees to the terms and service, as pointed out in the terms, and the terms say do not reverse-engineer. Since RSMV is a reverse-engineered product, it's a violation of the terms. Since the terms encompass the entire agreement between Jagex and users of Jagex property, they detail the "ordinary operating conditions." Since it is not in the ordinary operating conditions to use a software that is a violation of the terms, it is a circumvention of an access-prevention measure as described in the Duke University source beginning at paragraph 25.
I'd also point out Section 1201 (c) (3), that Jagex is not obligated to provide a response to a specific technological measure, meaning that they don't have to make their product RSMV-proof. Basically, they made a good-faith effort to protect their product by having each end-user agree to a contract, so Section 1201 (c) (3) protects them from innovative hackers. Leftiness 02:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
A proprietary file format is not encryption. Proprietary file formats restrict which programs can read the file, but are not made to encrypt data. Also, I have no experience what so ever in law and neither do many other people. We'd all appreciate it if you wrote up a summary, if possible. Thanks 222 talk 07:02, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
I realize it's a lot of information to process, but I can't summarize it much better than I did in the last paragraph of my monstrous comment, and I think the last paragraph tries to make the issue simpler than it is. I summarized some of the beginning points in the seventh paragraph, too, and I'm sorry, but I can't do much more than say re-read it, and read other sources. Read everything. That's how I learned this stuff, anyway.
What is encryption but restricting which program can open the file, or which person can read the contents? Are the files not, as Congress put it, the electronic equivalent of being in a locked room? Don't you need a special key to open the room which can only be gained by reverse-engineering the game client contrary to the terms and conditions? Maybe the word "protected" would be more suitable for the situation, but, really, what better way is there to encrypt something than to not even show the end-user the content in encrypted form? You can't even see the protected content, scrambled code, or whatever it is without reverse-engineering the game client.
Rhetorics aside, the only softwares that can open the cache are RSMV and the game client, and the only reason RSMV can open the cache is because RSMV was reverse-engineered from the game client. If the cache were unprotected computer code, you could see it with your text editor. If it were unprotected images, you could open it with your image viewer.Jagex stores the cache data in a unqiue, secure, proprietary format which I expect is based off of the generic dat and idx formats. Judging by the fact that there are two dat files and a lot more idx files, I would assume that the dat files are like scripts; they probably have something like "Goblin model is found over there in that idx file," though there's really no way for me to know. Again, the point is this: in the ordinary course of operation outlined in the terms and conditions, it's impossible to open the cache contents, and Section 1201 (c) (3) states that they don't have to make their product RSMV-proof. Leftiness 15:03, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
" The fact of the matter is: it's ridiculously easy for Jagex to give us the right to use those images. All they have to do is release an official statement that says "Yeah, go ahead and use it." Something in the news on would probably be good enough, though I'm sure there's a more official place to post it. Since it's so easy for them to give us - or anyone clear, full, obvious, legal rights to use the pictures, I have to think that they don't want anyone using the pictures because they haven't given anyone rights. Where did Jagex say they want us to use the pictures from RSMV" Look at the links on the top of the thread. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:10, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Mod Calm never allowed cache images or the model viewer. Mod Calm only allowed users to discuss the model viewer on the forums. Allowing a discussion of the MV is VERY different from allowing the MV itself. --LiquidTalk 17:30, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
I do hope your joking- to discuss the model viewer, you MUST HAVE SEEN IT. Do you accept this? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 18:54, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Nonsense. I am discussing the model viewer right now, and I have never seen it working. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 18:58, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
You are not discussing what you seen on it. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 18:59, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
First of all, I have not seen it. Second of all, whether or not it's been seen is irrelevant. The only permission that has been granted was the permission to discuss. --LiquidTalk 19:03, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Permission to discuss = permission to view. Have you looked at the thread? They have CLEARLY viewed it. Did jagex known this when they gave them permission? Yes. Could jagex lock the thread now if they wanted to? Yes again. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 19:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
That is implied, and it is an assumption. However, what we need here is clear and unambiguous permission. That certainly does not fit the bill. --LiquidTalk 19:14, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
It would be really nice if someone could talk to a jmod without being drowned out by hoards of idiots asking for free items. We are a silver fansite- does that give us nothing? Do we have no way of contacting jagex? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 19:16, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Having permission =/= not being punished. In Holland, it's illegal to have or deal drugs like marihuana. However, no-one's going to punish you. That's called "Gedogen". Jagex does not allow us to use the RSMV - however, they tolerate the use of it, because banning everyone who used it would be far too much work. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 19:58, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Has nothing to do with work, it has to do with the fact that they have no way of proving it. However, with the thread on forums, they CLEARLY SAID they have no problem with us discussing it. And yea, having permissions does = not being punished, as theres no way they could justify it especially in court. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 20:11, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Seriously, they are not going to take people to court over this. It's a quick way to lose customers, create a public relations nightmare, and scare away potential players. Oli is right. Not being punished is not the same as having permission. Let me give you an example. Before about two weeks ago, jailbreaking iPods and iPhones was illegal. People could be prosecuted and convicted of it. However, the practice was so prevalent and so hard to track that Apple never actually punished anyone for doing so. Did that count as permission? No, because the practice was still illegal. But, the offenders were not punished for practical purposes. --LiquidTalk 20:19, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
I translated the Dutch wikipedia article about Gedogen with Google Translator. Please read it - it's much more detailed that the English version. (By the way, did you even read that, 3rd age farcaster?) Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:30, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
If thats the case, what do we have to do to allow cache images? Oli just said- I quote- "Having permission =/= not being punished". So what DOES = not being punished then? If they came onto our site and said clearly for everyone to see "we allow rs wikia to use any cache image it wants", we still couldn't use them because, though we had permission, permission =/= not getting punished. In that case whatever, guess we might as well close thread, no point in bothering eh?Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 21:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
That's not even what we're saying! We never said that Jagex is going to punish us - we are saying that they just don't allow it. Again, not being punished =/= being allowed to do something. And please don't randomly change what you said. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:24, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Again- what would make u think they allowed it? They didn't say they wouldn't punish the thread creator, THEY GAVE HIM PERMISSION. Permission = support, thus jagex supports his action. Why in the world would they allow him to make it if they had any opposition at all for it? Makes no since. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 21:36, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I saw Mod Calm's post, and I read the above comments on this page. If I had to make an assumption about the thinking behind Mod Calm's decision, I might call it some sort of reverse-psychology; tell a kid not to do something and he'll do it in spite, but, if you tell him it's ok, he may stop - or at least slow down. The "public relations nightmare" is another point, as well as the cost of actually prosecuting and the fact that they have no way of knowing who actually violated Section 1201 (a). The costs far outweight the benefits, and all of these things combined make for the current situation: Jagex does nothing about the problem. However, Jagex not doing anything does not mean they give us permission, and it especially doesn't mean that they've given us the official permission that we would need, and Mod Calm allowing discussion of RSMV on the forums is not what we need.

As I've said, since law's purpose is to protect peoples' rights, people can of course waive their rights and allow others to perform actions which would normally be a violation of their rights. To be clear, we need specific, written permission to access the cache. The specific, written permission is called a license, and it needs to be publicly viewable, like something on or would be. It also needs to be proved that Jagex actually waived the rights, which is why it would need to be on a Jagex website, and it would probably have to be registered with some federal organizations and "put into the system." Of course it would be much simpler and much less of a legal head-ache for Jagex to provide us with pictures from the cache and a license to use those pictures; that would be something like a business partnership. Since Jagex has done none of these things, the law is that we do not have permission to violate their rights, and doing so would be a violation of Section 1201 (a). Leftiness 23:02, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Whats the difference between this and other pics? When did jagex say we could take non-cache images? Also, whats the difference between here and on the forums? Furthermore, if we know forsure jagex isn't going to take action against us, I question why we are following the law. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 23:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
We follow the law because we are good citizens. --LiquidTalk 23:27, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Besides, how do we know that Jagex won't go after us? The problem with them going after each individual person is that they don't know who the people are, and it's not cost effective to go after everyone individually. On the other hand, since you are proposing that we do this on the wiki, Jagex will know that exactly who is using cache images (Wikia), which identifies the defendant in this case. Furthermore, Wikia is only one organization, and Jagex could probably get the wiki shut down with a single letter to Wikia threatening legal action. Look at it this way: Wikia is a small organization with minimal revenue. It's much easier to take the hit and move on than it is to fight a costly battle in court. --LiquidTalk 23:37, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
"good" is a point of view. How do we know jagex wont come after us? Well, before they contact wikia, they would contact us and ask nicely for us to remove the images, in which case we would. If we didn't they would contact wikia, and wikia may or may not shut us down. If they do jagex will anger thousands of paying players, resulting in lost money and no gain. If wikia doesn't shut us down then jagex will have to amass lawyers, find a court date, meet with us, and possibly lose the court case spending tens of thousands of dollars aether way only to lose memberships over the entire issue, as well as support. Lets be honest here- the only reason they don't want us to view the cache is because then we know whats up their sleeves, we know whats coming and that make them feel like they arn't in total control. Being the assholes they are they don't like that, but when comparing it to thousands of dollars lost its no big deal. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 23:45, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Why are you fighting to have something that could just end badly for everyone; you, me, jagex, wikia, that 12 year old who thinks everyone is a noob. Why risk it for some pictures that could be meaningless? I don't think its that jagex wants to keep us guessing, it's probably because going into the cache may (not will) reveal a glitch. Also, if you made a game, working very hard for 10+ years, would you want someone poking their nose around in the inner makings of it, finding flaws and dead-end ideas? I certainly wouldn't. It just seems like a pointless battle for a little bit of knowledge, speculation, and a one sentence trivia. Stop working on the controversial stuff and go in rs, find some current content, and add to the 4,000+ stub articles. Full Slayer Helmet! Evil1888 Talk A's L Dragon Platebody! 00:00, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Reveal a glitch? So what, nobody cares if they see lucien's head glitched. If u mean in the game, I don't think its possible. If I made a game I'd tell everyone about every idea that even got considered by developers just for the fun of it. If we found a funny or odd glitch I'd tell them about that also. Not in a big or disruptive way, just as a bit of trivia. Oh, and you sir have no right to tell me how I should contribute. Thanks anyways though. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 00:52, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - The cache is in a proprietary format which cannot be accessed without Jagex's decryption methods. No, it's not.

  1. It's not encrypted, simply compressed.
  2. It's not a proprietary format, it's simply a different wrapper for a common compression format, tools for which have been publicly made available.

Just saying. I'm a regular user and I approve this message.  TLUL Talk - Contribs 05:33, August 19, 2010 (UTC) 

Comment - First, whether Jagex will go after us or anybody isn't relevant. Neither is the fact that they can't catch someone using RSMV. I've said these things far more than necessary, in my opinion; please stop making those points.

The difference between the cache images and any other pictures is the access prevention measure. In the case of other pictures, we take a screenshot. The other pictures are publicly available in the form of the game, and Jagex hasn't told us not to take screenshots like they've told us not to reverse-engineer the game client to circumvent their access-prevention measure. In order to justify using the other pictures, we call on Fair Use, detailed in Section 107. Fair Use doesn't apply to this issue, as I've said.

In regards to the fact that RSMV is an open-source tool, DeCSS was open-source, and the courts ruled that DeCSS is a violation. Also, I'm of the belief that dat0, idx0, and their counterparts are modifications of the generic dat and idx formats, I expect Jagex modified those formats for security purposes, and I'm farirly certain that the only tools that can access those files are RSMV and the game client; again, the only reason RSMV can access them is because it's reverse-engineered, which is something that is not in the ordinary operation of the product outlined in the terms and conditions. Since it's not in the ordinary operation, and since there's no other way to access the cache files, the access-prevention measure is effective in the ordinary course of operation, and RSMV is a violation of Section 1201 (a) for circumventing that access-prevention measure. Leftiness 21:31, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Communication with jagex

Is there no way of asking jagex about this? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:20, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

You can try, but I'll bet they won't give you a straight answer if they decide not to ignore the question altogether. --LiquidTalk 15:53, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Jagex hardly ever answers our questions, and when they do, those answers are usually vague. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 16:55, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
How would I "try"? I'm assuming we would contact as the wikia, not just bumping into a jmod ingame. If u want me representing the wikia I'm happy to but I have no idea what do so... Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 19:04, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
First of all, you can start using proper grammar and type every word out. For example, parts of your preceding statement should have been "I'm assuming we would contact as Wikia, instead of bumping into a Jagex moderator in-game. If you want me..." --LiquidTalk 19:07, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Dude, I'm doing my best and considering its not even coming close to having anything to do with the topic, I'd say I'm doing good enough.
We're not "the wikia", we're "the RuneScape Wiki". The lack of an "a" is important. Just sayin' Wink Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 19:46, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
So why is it that we have "wikia GAMING" at the top of our screen? Again, it doesn't matter- do you really have no comments on the topic? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 20:09, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Wikia is a company that hosts free wikis. It does matter. Yes I do have comments, but it seems that you don't understand them and therefore just dismiss them as trivial or untrue. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:49, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't matter in this discussion, and idc really. You HAVE NOT yet commented on us as a group contacting jagex. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 20:59, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - we've tried contacting Jagex before - more than once. They brush us off with automated emails if they even bother responding. Leftiness 21:34, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

In that case I'd request that we be removed from their fansite list if possible as a gesture of hatred back at them. May not be the best idea though..... Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 21:48, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I made a thread. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:11, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that's gunna make them more inclined to explicitly state whether or not we can use the images... Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 23:53, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
I'd be suprised if they don't respond. They want this just as clear as we do, only reason snail mail doesnt work is because jagex wouldn't dream of reading their mail. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 00:49, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Comment Just want to mention contact was tried through snail mail, and no response was ever received. VWGEWBucket detail.pngrwojy 23:55, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Comment' just dropping by to say, i didnt bother reading lol, summary pl0x? Fruit.Smoothie 04:11, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Jagex used to ban discussions of the rsmv on the forums, now they allow them. We are trying to figure out if that means they reversed their positions regarding the rsmv. To do that I have made a forum thread asking them. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 14:15, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Per my above comments, I'd again like to request that all cache images be banned from the wiki unless we receive a license from Jagex or unless the copyright law is reformed. Despite unexplained acts like Mod Calm allowing discussion, note that it is a license that we need; effectively, Jagex needs to give us written proof that they've waived their rights protected by Section 1201, that proof needs to be publicly available, and it probably needs to be registered with some federal organizations. Leftiness 12:42, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Seriously? Why in the heck would jagex even think of waisting the time? Furthermore, why do we have to go threw a great big process with cache images, but not other images? It makes no since what so ever for us to have to go threw that to use these images. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:07, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
This is the metaphor that Congress uses to explain access-prevention measures; please read it carefully because it does make sense.
There's a book behind a locked door. If you break into the room to get the book and write an essay about it, you aren't infringing copyright; you're breaking and entering. The access-prevention measure is the locked door, the cache images are the book, and Section 1201 is the law saying that breaking and entering is illegal. Violating Section 1201 is digitally breaking and entering.
Images that are currently in-game can be used under the rules of Fair Use, which is detailed in Section 107. We satisfy Fair Use because we use the images for critique, commentary, and scholarship among other things. The point is that in-game images are not "behind a locked door." They don't have an access-prevention measure. We aren't "breaking and entering" when we take a screenshot.
Whether or not Jagex would take the time to give us a license is irrelevant. Unless they do give us a license, or unless copyright law is reformed, we should ban the cache images from the wiki because it is illegal to obtain them. Leftiness 18:10, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
That is really pushing it. Already your interpretation of the law is pushing it, and thinking its possible jagex will do something against us if we allow the images is pushing it. But if they come out and say cache images are allowed on the wiki, then thats end of discussion. WE KNOW FOR A FACT that jagex wouldn't take legal action, especially if they say themselves that cache images are allowed. The only reason we are not allowing them is because we do not want to seem like we support illegal activities or disrespect jagex. Both of those problems will go away when we get permission to use the images, and 95% of users will switch over to supporting using them. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:25, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand which part of my interpretations are "pushing it." I've given a metaphor from Congress and quotations from copyright law. I've cited Duke University's law department and the case of Universal v. Reimerdes. I'm the one providing facts for my points.
Despite your opening statements, it seems we're in agreement; Jagex won't take action, but we're currently not using cache images because we don't want to condone illegal activities. However, I disagree with some word choice. Specifically, the problems will go away if we get permission to use the images. As I've said since I entered the RSMV discussion, I would support the cache images if they were legal, and I expect that there would be no problem achieveing consensus if they were legal. I've acknowledged the benefits of cache images, and, as I've said, those benefits mean nothing while the action is illegal.
Since a license is the means by which an owner gives a user the right to use the work, I don't understand your opposition. If we get a license, there will be no problems because Jagex is perfectly allowed to give up the rights which Section 1201 protects. If copyright law is reformed, there will be no problems. Unless one of those two options is taken, there is no decision to make; unless one of those two options is taken, the fact remains that it's illegal to use the cache images, and it's perfectly reasonable to formally ban the illegal action. Leftiness 00:19, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
The difference is that you consider it illigal to use the images untill jagex gives us writen permission, posts on their website on a perminant page that we can, as well as registers it with the us goverment, the british goverment, and who knows what else. Thus, unless you do not actually believe this is the only way we can have cache images on the wiki, you oppose them and always will because jagex will never do that. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 01:48, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
It is illegal to use the images unless Jagex gives us a license and registers it with the government. It's breaking the law written in Section 1201. The only way that we can legally perform the action that the law prevents is to get legal permission to perform the action, and a license from Jagex is that permission. If Jagex will never do that, then it will never be legal to access the cache unless copyright law is reformed. Since copyright law hasn't been reformed, there is no option but to ban the images. That said, I'm telling the truth when I say I would support the cache images if they were legal; just because Jagex refuses to give us a license doesn't mean I wouldn't be ok with it, and Jagex isn't obligated to let us use the images, anyway. Leftiness 15:56, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Your saying you would oppose the images even if jagex came to us and said clearly with no dispute that they allowed cache images. To that I say stop blindly following the law and use common since. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 17:59, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Common sense = following the law. If we upload the pictures, we break the law. If we are prosecuted (not gonna happen, but if), the images and the rest of the wiki will be taken off the internet. So then we'll have the images for a few weeks and after that no more wiki. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 21:28, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
So if its not going to happen, why do we care? Not to mention it couldn't happen, seeing as if jagex were to tell us to use the images and then turn around and say we are violating an agreement with them, they have a very, very weak case that wouldn't have a chance of holding up. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't bother, due to the hassle, etc. Not to mention the fact that if they say we can use them, they clearly don't want to sue us. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:20, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
Sir, you have some flawless logic. The problem is that nobody here understands it. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 12:49, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

comment - 3AF, have you ever signed a contract? Signed a check? Filled out paperwork? Do you ever wonder why they don't just say "Raise your right hand and promise that you're telling the truth."? As I've said, the law protects the people's rights, and people are allowed to waive their rights, but they have to fill out the paperwork. The fact of the matter is: we need paperwork. A license is the paperwork we need, and, if Jagex won't give us a license for whatever reason - even if they're just too lazy to fill out the paperwork, we can't do it. Leftiness 11:55, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Yes, and No. If you just raised your hand, you could go back and deny it unless it happened to be filmed, leaving you open to being sued. With this, however, if they give us permission the permission will be viewable forever, no way to suddenly say you didn't give permission when its right there. And I don't know why we should be trusting you. Maby you are telling the truth, but, seeing as we don't have any other opinions, you could be making it all up. Its like a person saying they saw a ghost at night, alone. They may have seen the ghost, but they may also be lieing. No way to prove aether, unless we get second, third, or more opinions. The fact that both robert and end disagreed with you makes it seem more likely that you may not have everything strait. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 15:03, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, we have a "licence". To discuss the images. We do not have a licence to look at them or post them here. Of course you need to have looked at them to be able to talk about them (well, at least someone needs to have seen them), but when you look at what it literally says (which is what the law looks at), it says: "you may discuss, but not view or post, images from the RSMV." Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 15:17, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
First off, source? Secondly, whats your point? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 16:25, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - We don't have a license to talk about the cache images. Talking about the cache images is fair use in action. Purpose of use: text commentary. Nature of the work: protected image. Substantiality of the use: 0%. Market loss resulting from the use: $0. Technically, people can learn about cache images from other sources without accessing the cache. I've seen cache images, and I haven't circumvented the access-prevention measure. Since Jagex can't prove that these people aren't just talking about things that other people broke the law by posting, they have no argument, so it's pointless to ban discussion on the forums.

I guess it's valid to point out that Robert and Endasil were in disagreement with me. I'll lay down what's fact, then I'll go into what we disagreed on. Fact: it's illegal according to Section 1201 to circumvent an access-prevention measure. Fact: Fair Use gives exceptions to Section 106.

Now, it took a while to get where we are in this discussion. It's slowly molded from ethics and other ridiculous arguments to the legal discussion we're having, so I personally disregard much of what was discussed in previous RSMV threads. That said, the things that Robert and Endasil believe that I think pertain to the legal situation are these: they believe that fair use is a defense against Section 1201, and they believe that the proprietary format doesn't count as an access-prevention measure.

I disagree with both of those beliefs. As my refutation of fair use as a defense, I cited Universal v. Reimerdes, and I cited a US-government-hosted document describing the DMCA. As I've pointed out, Congress refers to access-prevention measures as digital locks that prevent people from "breaking into the room" that holds the digital work. Since Jagex created a proprietary format to store their cache data, I assert that the format prevents access and is therefore an access-prevention measure. Since the only way to get the cache files is with RSMV, and RSMV is a violation of the terms and conditions, RSMV is outside the ordinary operation of the work, so RSMV is considered a circumvention of the access-prevention measure. Basically, I say the proprietary format is a lock. The lock is strong (effective in its ordinary operation), and only way to get in is by using a lockpick (RSMV). Since it's illegal to use lockpicks to break into rooms (Section 1201), I point out that the lockpick (RSMV) is illegal. I also point out that the document blatantly says "the fair use doctrine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work."

Again, in regards to fair use, I cited the government-hosted document that I linked in the previous paragraph. To understand my point, please read the end of page 3, starting with "Section 1201 divides," and read all of page 4. It points out a difference between circumventing "copy-prevention" measures and circumventing "access-prevention" measures. The proprietary format doesn't just prevent copying. Examples of things that prevent copying include: PDF, where you can't ordinarily copy and paste text; TV, where you can't ordinarily record shows. It is legal, according to that document, to create a software that allows you to copy and paste text from a PDF. However, the proprietary format prevents access. You can't see, hear, or do anything with the cache images without using the game client or without using RSMV. In the terms and conditions, it says the following: "To use many features of Jagex Products, we require you to create an account. We grant valid account holders a non-exclusive, non-transferable license for the period of membership to use Jagex Products and to download and use our client software and connect to our servers solely to use Jagex Products in accordance with these terms and conditions." Therefore, you are allowed to access the cache only by using the game client. Anything else is not in agreement with the contract. Since the proprietary format prevents access, since RSMV is also against the terms, and since the document specifically says "the fair use doctine is not a defense to the act of gaining unauthorized access to a work, [and] the act of circumventing a technological measure in order to gain access is prohibited," I say that Robert and Endasil's points are refuted.

Please read the information I've provided; I believe it's very relevant to the situation. Leftiness 19:07, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand that, put something you know is false or irrevelent in and I wont notice it. However, you "Since the only way to get the cache files is with RSMV, and RSMV is a violation of the terms and conditions..". To that i ask, what if it wasn't against the terms and conditions, and we were never told we couldn't do it, but never were directly told we could? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 20:13, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Notice that you say "what if", but it is in the terms and conditions. And I feel out of it asking this. But what images do we want if we can't upload them on wiki because of RS:NOT#CRYSTAL? HaloTalk 20:22, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
So why bring it up if I said what if? And, we wouldn't be speculating on anything just to say this is an image, and its in the cache. However, no such item exists in game. We wouldn't try to guess on what it was or anything Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 22:15, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - To be honest, I hoped that my focus on factual information and reputable sources would counteract any lack of trust anybody might have. I'm not exactly sure what else I could do for you 3AF, since I'm providing quotations and links to my sources. If you don't believe that what I have in quotations is actually written, click the link and read for yourself; read everything. That's really all I can tell you.

Read here (1 and 2) to know what type of people created RSMV. Read their posts. Read their signatures. Notably, read this, "It gives an access violation! >> When I open the cache1 *.dat files....," which is found a bit down the page of link 1. There is no doubt in my mind that they violated Jagex's terms, especially since Jagex has an "access violation" error further protecting their cache files. Seriously, when you need to "download an old cache" and "use the cache extractor" to get around the access-prevention measures, you know there's a problem.

I've also read some of the scripts that RSMV uses, and one of them says that it connects to Jagex's servers, World 169 by default, acting like the game client, and it takes the cache against rules for 3rd party applications if you don't have the cache on your hard drive. Specifically, "1. Software that attempts to communicate directly with our game worlds." In addition to this, logically: how could a software communicate with the server if it weren't saying the right things? Servers need certain things said to them to make them work; that RSMV says the right things, including probable security-related things, is further proof that RSMV is reverse-engineered. Leftiness 11:46, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

I don't not believe you, I was just pointing out that we cannot be sure how things would play out if they were to sue us. I'm also not desputing that its against the rules, however if jagex were to come out and say its not against the rules, wouldn't that kinda mean its not against the rules? Again, not saying they have or will do that... just saying if they did. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 14:46, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
As they're a world-renowned company, I would be surpised if Jagex were so horrible at their job as to say "It's not against the rules" without filling out the paperwork to make it not against the law. If Jagex did say "It's not against the rules" and then sued us, a judge would probably give serious consideration as to if we broke the law. Then again, I doubt how well such a statement would hold up in court. It may just result in Jagex disciplining the employee who made the statement, and then the statement would mean absolutely nothing. Another example: Kevorkian was charged with murder after getting video consent to assist in suicides. In legal situations, paperwork is the surest bet, and it needs to be filed in the correct federal databases, and it needs to be registered with the correct federal organizations. Leftiness 20:13, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
Well, theres no law against looking in the cache. There is, however, a law (evidently) that we must obey the terms and conditions. These terms and conditions are what stop us from looking in the cache. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the terms and conditions were changed we could view cache images? Is any of that statement wrong or anything? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 21:02, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
There is a law saying you can't look at the cache images. Section 1201 of copyright law says "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." That basically means, you can't "pick" digital "locks." As I've argued, the proprietary format of the cache is an access-prevention measure ("lock"). Also, having recently read further into the forums of moparisthebest, I quoted some discussion involving an "access violation" error and the work-arounds that those reverse-engineerers had to use to access the cache, which is proof of further access-prevention measures ("locks") that Jagex put in. Since the cache has an access-prevention measure ("lock") on it, it is illegal according to Section 1201 to circumvent ("pick") it.
The terms provide the "ordinary operation" of the Runescape content. You agree to the terms by possessing or using the content, which is written in the terms. The courts ruled, according to section 1201, that anything that effectively prevents access to a work counts as an access-prevention measure. They also ruled that a "lock" was "effective" if it prevented access in the "ordinary operation." That means: Jagex says how you're allowed to use the product in the terms. If you don't agree to the terms, the terms say "Do not use the product." When Jagex says how you're allowed to use the product, they're describing the "ordinary operation" of the product. You can also think of it as the intended operation of the product. Since it says in the terms that you can't reverse-engineer the product, RSMV is a violation of the terms. Since RSMV is a violation of the terms, RSMV is not an intended operation of the product. Since it is not an intended operation of the product, the "lock" is effective in the ordinary operation. Since the "lock" is effective, it is illegal to circumvent ("pick") the "lock."
Also, as Robert pointed out to me, it's not "illegal" to violate a contract. All that Jagex can do if you only violate the contract is terminate the contract. That means they can ban your accounts and tell you never to use Runescape again. However, accessing the cache is also violating Section 1201 - a law. By having both a contract and the law on their side, Jagex can prove their side of the story very powerfully. In fact, I'm convinced that there is no defense that someone could use if Jagex sued them for accessing the cache. Maybe they could plead insanity, or something like that, but there is no real defense. It is blatantly illegal.
Also, if the terms were changed, it might still be illegal to access the cache. For example, if Jagex just removed the "Do not reverse-engineer," it would still be illegal. The reason for this is that I recently found out about the "access violation" error. I expect that it's something Jagex put in to tell cache-accessors that it's illegal according to Section 1201 to access the cache. On the other hand, if Jagex put "We condone the act of accessing our cache -" or something like that into the terms, then it would be fine to access the cache. However, if Jagex were so happy to allow us access to the cache, they would have put them in a ZIP or something; it's still compressed, but it's not secure. If they wanted us poking through the cache, they wouldn't have put gone through the trouble to put such a strong "lock" on it. Leftiness 23:34, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure thats good enough, but I'll leave it alone for now and say you win. What about viewing the images on the internet? Say, googling rs cache images and viewing your results- is that too illigal? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 23:54, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
I haven't researched that topic much, admittedly. I know there are things that are illegal to view on the internet - child poronography, for example. It's also illegal, at least here in the US, to torrent copyrighted content. I'm absolutely certain that it's illegal to post the cache images to a website; that's distribution of illegally-gained content, which could be loosely compared to hosting torrents. I'm also certain that it's illegal to access the cache images. However, I'm unsure if it's illegal to view the images after someone else has accessed and posted them. I think that such a law would be ridiculous; just imagine being arrested for witnessing a crime. Leftiness 01:17, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Alright, heres alota questions: How would a court/jagex know we got the images ourselves? Perhaps we just copyed em off another site. Also, regarding child porn and other such things, what if you come across them by accident? Same goes for cache images. Also, arn't all these laws ridiculous? If it doesn't hurt something and its against a law, then yea its ridiculous imo. Us viewing cache images causes jagex to lose no time or money, and obviously noone would be losing.... Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 02:08, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
The cache is against the law. Period. "It doesn't hurt" or "Jagex won't bother with this" are NOT proper arguments in this case, and certainly will hold less weight in any consensus determination than Leftiness's well-researched comments. The bottom line is that we cannot do anything illegal, because we are representing Wikia. If you did it by yourself on your computer, then Jagex probably won't bother. But, with Wikia, they certainly have the means and resources to shut it down. That is a risk that we cannot take. --LiquidTalk 02:20, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
At no point did I say I'd use "it doesn't hurt" as a counter argument. What i said was any law bans something that doesn't hurt has no right to exist. Also, state what you mean by "the cache". Is it illegal to download it so u can play runescape? To open it? To view the images? To discuss the images? Also, I'm NOT SUGGESTING WE DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL. Also, their means and resources don't matter. The US has the means and resources to unleash a nuclear barrage against every major city on the planet, but they most certainly wont. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 02:39, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - A court or Jagex would not know if we got the images ourselves or if we got them from a different website. However, the cache is the root of any cache images, so any cache images are illegally-gained. Regarding accidental viewing of illegal content: if they miraculously managed to find out you were viewing them, you would be hard pressed to prove that it was an accident. Also, I've already said that I don't think the DMCA is perfect; it prevents people from, say, utilizing their content in any way they wish. For example, if I buy a book, I can read it, give it to my friend, copy it to my computer, donate it to a library, sell it, and so on. If I buy a digital copy of the same book, I'm limited to reading it on a single device. Some companies even get away with limiting the time that you can keep the digital book, forcing you to purchase it again if you want to read it again. So, again, the DMCA isn't perfect; however, this is a case of it working properly. This is Jagex's property we're talking about, and all the law is doing is letting Jagex determine what they want to do with it and preventing us from determining before them. Being arrested for witnessing a crime would be much more ridiculous than this is, anyway.

Also, Liquid has a point: it's much easier to detect and act against an illegal action committed by an organization such as us than one committed by an individual. Our actions are public knowledge - anybody can see it; we're posting it on the internet. I gave a comparison of hosting cache images to hosting torrents, and I think it's a good comparison. It's nearly impossible to catch the people using the torrents, but that didn't stop them from shutting The Pirate Bay down. Leftiness 11:15, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Do you think jagex should be able to ban us from viewing these images? As I said it hurts no one, and it is on our harddrive. On that topic, accidental viewings seem like they could happen quite easily. Also, do you have to follow the law not to view them even if you don't agree to the terms and conditions? In addition to that, we know jagex doesn't have a problem with people discussing the images, so I'd say its very unlikely for them to even have the desire to take action against us. I can't think of any reason why they would, exept to flex their legal muscle and bully their costomers into viewing the cache in secret, rather then talking about it. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 20:21, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Look, just stop saying "It doesn't hurt". Whether or not a law is just is not for you to decide; that's the job of the legislature and judiciary. So, regardless of it hurts or not, we cannot engage in illegal activity. --LiquidTalk 23:27, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • Facepalm* I wouldn't, as I'v said, try to use the "it doesn't hurt" arguement to justify using cache images. That discussing is between left and me, about wether a law which bans something that does no damage has a right to exist. If you wanna jump in be my guest, but please, realise we arn't talking about this specific example. Or at least, I'm not. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 23:47, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
I just said that you have no right to determine if a law has a right to exist. That is up for the legislature and the judiciary to decide. If a law is in effect, we obey it. --LiquidTalk 23:49, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
Just because I don't think it has a right to exist doesn't mean I don't obey it. I may not vote for or agree with a president, but I'm not going to rebel or do anything other then vote against that leader in the future, same with laws. I'd change that law if I got the chance, but I'm not going to disobey it, nor are I suggesting that the wiki disobeys it. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 00:09, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

back on topic has allowed cache images for over 2 months now, and Jagex has taken no legal action against them, not even asking that they remove them. Ironically, they are ranked as a gold fansite and we a silver one. Just sayin'.Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 00:12, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Question - So if your neighbor is a the governor of your state, and he commits murder and gets away with it, that means it's alright for you to do it? That's really what you're saying here. Just because broke the law does not mean we can. The fact that Jagex has taken no legal action is irrelevant, as mentioned many times above. --LiquidTalk 00:24, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying we should do it because does it. I'm saying that that guarantees that we will not be sued by jagex over cache images. If he commits a murder, how would I know if he really did it or not? You seem to say its irrelevant when thats helpful for your side and not when it is for mine, also. If jagex says they support it, and we reach consensus to do it, I don't see why we should blindly follow the law, if following the law leads no gain for everyone and loss for us and jagex. If there was a law that we had to sacrifice a family member every year would you follow it? Its the law, after all, by your logic you would have no choice. This is just my opinion and there may well be a reason to blindly follow the law even if jagex wont sue us and its a win win situation, but I haven't yet seen it. Care to provide one? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 01:09, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

How do you know Jagex won't sue us? They haven't sued yet. They could decide to sue them tomorrow, or in a week, or in a month. We have no way of knowing. The fact that lasted two weeks does not provide any sort of guarantee for us. --LiquidTalk 01:16, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
And if they were to come out and say we don't have any problem with you using cache images, discussing them, or obtaining them, and we won't sue you for doing so? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 01:38, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
If they do that, then you can start a new thread to allow cache images. If they actually do that, which I highly doubt, you will have cleared the first hurdle of copyright issues. Then, you will have to convince us that using cache images is proper and does not violate policy such as RS:NOT#CRYSTAL. --LiquidTalk 01:43, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Jagex can ban you for no reason at all; it's their game. I'm unsure if they even have to reimburse members; the wording is a bit unclear, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. It's in the contract.

However, they can't take legal action unless you break the law. The law is Section 1201, and accessing the cache is breaking that law. If the cache images are on your hard drive, you agree to the terms and conditions; that's in the contract, too. If you don't agree with the terms, you have to remove the cache and any other Jagex property from your hard drive, and you can't legally use their game or any of their property. Contracts and law are separate, but they're closely tied together in ways like this.

Also, we don't know if Jagex doesn't have a problem with people discussing the cache images; I'm pretty sure they know that the people discussing them have accessed the cache, and I'm of the belief that they don't like that because of all the trouble they've gone through to prevent access. However, they can't prove that the people have accessed the cache; the people could be talking about images that other people posted on the internet.

Whether there has been any action taken against Tipit is, again, irrelevant. As Liquid pointed out, they may act in the future, and, even if Jagex never takes legal action, that is no excuse for breaking the law. I believe we're in agreement that it's impossible to prove who accessed the cache, and it's expensive for Jagex to sue people, and it accomplishes nothing for Jagex to sue people, and it hurts Jagex to sue people. That's why Jagex isn't taking action; the costs outweigh the benefits. Accessing the cache does no harm to them, but that doesn't make it legal.

Even if Jagex gives a solid form of approval for accessing the cache, I think it would only make a judge consider if our actions were legal, but not even that, necessarily. For clarity: when I say permission, I mean "We, Jagex, give the users of the Runescape Wiki permission to access the cache located on their hard drive for the purpose of..." Seriously, it needs to be that much description, and, even then, Jagex may just discipline the employee who posted that, and then the statement would be worthless; how would we know? A license, on the other hand, has to be taken care of by someone up there in Jagex, like the CEO, so there's no questioning it or taking it back. Again, it doesn't take a lot of work to give us a license, so we must assume that Jagex does not want to give us a license. Leftiness 01:56, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

They cannot ban me as they do not know my account name. What if I play runescape, but my mom/bro/sis/dad/other random person accidently cames across the cache images and views them without knowing what it is? Don't things like this seem like gaps in the law?

Imo, jagex doesn't want people to access the cache, however, they realise that people are doing it on an individual basis and they cannot stop it, so instead they have chosen to let it by. They still arn't happy with it, but think theres more to gain from allowing it then opposing it. Just the situation from my point of view. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 02:14, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

They can ban anybody they want. They can IP ban everything within 100 miles of your house if they want to. It's their game; banning has nothing to do with the law. That said, I agree that they've decided not to take any action (yet) due to the costs outweighing the benefits. However, that does not make the action legal. Leftiness 02:22, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
They don't know my house. I never said banning has anythign 2 do with the law. Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 02:45, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
They have your IP, and this discussion is getting pretty off-topic. Anyway, I've tried addressing these "gaps" in the law before, and it pretty much comes down to common sense. Did they access the cache? Yes. Whether or not they did it on accident is irrelevant; they broke the law. Despite how ridiculously impossible it is to "accidentally" open RSMV and view the cache, an "accidental viewing" would affect the punishment. Of course, the defendant would be very hard-pressed to prove that it was an accident since it is quite a process to download, install, and run RSMV, then select the cache, which is normally hidden from view in the file manager, then view the images, then post them on the internet... "accidentally." If the defendant proved that it was an accident, the images would still have to be deleted, the site would still be taken down, and so on; the defendant might escape with little to no charges. Might. Leftiness 03:02, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
They do not have my Ip. If jagex really does oppose people viewing the cache, why did they allow that thread? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 13:27, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
Since you're connecting to their server to play the game, they do have your IP. If they didn't have your IP, then they couldn't send data back to your computer; they couldn't even send back the HTML file that is their homepage if your computer didn't provide its IP. Every site you go to gets your IP. In regards to allowing the cache thread: as I've said, and as it seems to be agreed, it's impossible to prove. Again, I've seen cache images, and I haven't "picked the lock" on my cache; they're all over the internet. So it comes down to my example again: they can't arrest you for witnessing a crime; they can't charge you for looking at cache pictures found on the internet. Jagex can't prove that those people accessed the cache themselves. Jagex can't prove that those people didn't just look at the pictures posted on Youtube or the pictures found in other places. As I've also said, it may be a reverse-psychology approach to the situation, as well. For example: if you tell a child not to do something, he'll do it in spite, but, if you tell him it's ok, he may stop - or, at least, the problem may slow down. In the end, I can't tell you for sure why Jagex allowed the cache thread, but they certainly didn't give anybody permission to "pick the lock" and post the images on a fansite. Leftiness 15:15, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
They have my accounts Ip, they do not have 3rd age farcasters Ip, and there is no way to link what I'm saying here to any jagex account. Who said we would be "picking the lock"? Maby we would be, but then again, we could just get them off youtube or google like everyone else does, couldn't we? Third age robe top.png 3rd age farcaster Third age druidic robe top.png 16:32, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - It doesn't matter or not whether we get "caught" or anything. What matters is that it's against the law. HaloTalk 18:07, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Your IP, 3AF's IP, and the IP of your runescape account are the same thing... It's the number that identifies your computer. I'm not exactly sure how IPs work, but I know that they periodically change nowadays, though the first few digits stay the same, or something. Some of the digits that stay the same tell where your computer is, other digits say who your ISP is... You get an IP from your Internet Service Provider; my ISP is Charter. Charter assigns IPs, and Charter keeps a record of the IPs. If Jagex determined that they wanted to ban me, they could just ban every IP in my area that has Charter. If they didn't want to do that, they could have a chat with Charter, and Charter would supply them with my IP as it changes. See, it's perfectly legal for Jagex to ban every IP in my area that has Charter because it's their game and they can do whatever they want. Since Charter doesn't want all of its customers to be mad, they're just fine with, basically, selling me out.

Regarding picking the lock: do you think it's legal to host child poronography on your website if you're not the photographer and you just take it from other websites? ... It's a similar situation. It's impossible to get the cache images without somebody breaking Section 1201. As such, you might think of those images as "contraband" - or maybe you could think of them as "drugs." If you see somebody "dealing drugs," you aren't committing a crime because it isn't illegal to witness a crime. However, if you take some and start dealing them, too, then you're committing a crime. "Dealing drugs" is similar to illegally gaining cache images and then distributing them. Wherever you get those illegal images, whether they're from your cache or from Youtube, they're illegal to distribute. Leftiness 18:26, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Request for closure

This thread is going nowhere. What was said at the top of the page is being repeated over and over again. It is clear that a consensus will not form. I don't feel comfortable closing this thread, so I'll ask a neutral sysop to do it. --LiquidTalk 18:10, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

For heaven's sakes. It really shouldn't matter who closes it as long as they provide a good reason. People will bitch at you just for being a sysop, no matter what you do. Get over it, suck it up, do the best you can, and you have nothing to worry about. HaloTalk 18:13, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
People would bitch at me even if I'm not a sysop. But, this is one of the few times that I really just can't close a thread. Usually, I could care less if I commented, but this is an exception. --LiquidTalk 18:14, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Closed - Based on the large number of discussions we have had about this topic, cache images will not be allowed on the wiki. Despite the huge number of arguments made by a relatively small amount of users in favor of using these images, the general consensus is that it may be breaking copyright law, and that it provides no distinct advantage for us to use these images. Because of this, cache images will not be allowed on the wiki. --Aburnett(Talk) 18:26, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Note - To any wondering readers, a list of past Jagex cache discussions can be found at the top of Talk:Jagex cache. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 18:27, September 3, 2010 (UTC)