Forum:Game Guide image template

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Forums: Yew Grove > Game Guide image template
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This thread was archived on 20 October 2009 by Psycho Robot.

I've noticed that many, and I mean MANY of our images are not our work and are from the Game Guide. Most of these images can be found on User:Nightgunner1's userpage, which I greatly thank him for ;) Note: Not all of the Game Guide images are on his page, I'm sure. I find this ridiculous that so many people would rather just go to the Game Guide after every update, than go in game and screenshot/edit a picture of their own.

The reason this angers me is because of the first line of RS:IMAGES:

"*Images must be created by the wiki community, not by other fansites or the Game guide.

Most websites ask that the images featured there not be used elsewhere, and it is the wiki's policy to honour that request."

Therefore, I propose a new template/project to help more people notice that WE need to create our own images, and not right-click/save a picture from the Game Guide.

I've come up with a rough example of what the template might look like, based off of the Standard Detail template:

NOTE: We've come up with a more elaborate template, so please scroll down even further.

Be aware that I am a total nub at making templates, and that that was just a horrible quick draft Wink

Anyway, anyone support? I think there are way too many for this to be overlooked.
PS: This is my first Yew Grove forum, so don't be to hard on me Smile Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 02:47, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Starting out

Comment - Why do we need to replace hundreds of images already cleanly cut and with transparency? Also, fair use:

"This image, obtained outside of the RuneScape java client, is classified as a Non-free image. The image depicted here is subject to Jagex's copyright and is displayed here under the conditions of Fair use."

Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 04:31, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry TEbuddy, I wasn't clear on what my purpose was. I've added that to the beginning post. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 04:50, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
The question is now not whether they should be replaced or not. They should be replaced. That's already in the Image policy. Sure, not every image from the game guide is a bad image, but they're all pretty small, and some of them aren't really that good. So yes a template needs to be decided so we can add it to images that are taken from the game guide. I have a sample template on the Forum:Image Policy Follow-up thread, and this one is nice too. The one thing I would say is that the iamge is a bit large. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 04:53, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for you post. Tbh, I think they should all be replaced, big or small, large or wide, good or bad. Basically, any image from the game guide breaks our policy, and it must be replaced, no matter how nice it looks. And yes, Template:Outside image is a nice one too. I've resized the lectern so it's not as big, would that look nicer? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:00, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
Yes I agree they should all be replaced, but some of them aren't all that bad, like K'ril Tsutsaroth. Since he's so big, it'd be hard to get a good shot of his full frame like that image has. Also, one must consider images such as Grim Reaper, where its not from the game guide but rather a sort of concept art. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 05:09, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes, I/we can make an exception for some situations. For K'ril, unless we can get a really good acurate shot of him in HD, in transparency/PNG, we should keep the game guide image (but it's still against policy, maybe we need to ignore all rules in this case). As for the Grim Reaper, that is nice concept art from the Game Guide, but should be replaced if we can ever find him again in game. (Luckily, totally aside from my argument here and more towards the Grim Reaper, we can now see the Grim Reaper again XD! The first, and maybe each time after, you die you go to his office or something, I'm currently trying this right now. Check the article for more information.) Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:35, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
Off topic again, about the Grim Reaper, you can now meet him again by dying for the first time ever on a runescape account ( I created a new one for this ), and well, the sucky part about this is that a table is in the way Concerned Well, if anyone would like to use the pictures here instead of the concept art, here they are:

GrimReaper3.png GrimReaper2.png GrimReaper.png

OK! BACK ON TOPIC NOW! Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 06:01, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

You all essentially ignored the real question in my post and for one second ignore what the policy says. Game guide images are sometimes small, but they are usually very good shots and have transparency. As far as quality goes they cant be beat, so why exactly do we need to replace them. Fair use applies and we are not legally in the wrong. So, why? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:53, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
For pure legalistic reason, there is nothing special about game guide images vs. something done as a screen shot by a player. Both are used under the presumption of fair use, and they both come from the same source: Jagex. So technically there is no difference here. The only thing I can possibly imagine about why it is an issue is that players have to actually play the game and get to those places... in game... in order to obtain those screen shots. On that line of thought and spirit of policy, I do support the strong encouragement of taking in-game screenshots and then editing them for anything required here on this wiki. The few game guide images that can't be obtained via screenshots is quite minimal. Far too much on this wiki is taken from the game guide, which has from time to time proven to be highly inaccurate on a number of points. This wiki can be more accurate than even the "official" guide that Jagex produces.
Still, I would have to agree that a complete blanket prohibition is not necessarily good policy here. Policy can be changed or modified by consensus too, so appealing to authority on this matter isn't a good point to make other than to suggest some earlier consensus had been achieved to come up with much of the policy. --Robert Horning 17:31, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

TEbuddy, the reason why these must be replaced (and the reason we HAVE that part of the policy) is because we are a wiki. For one, a wiki is a fansite, dedicated to gathering information about it's subject and present it in a fashion that many people can understand and learn from. It is not our job to take Jagex's work from their site, directly and call it our own give the impression of it being our work. I doubt too many people would see the "Fair use" template on the image.
Think of it like this. Jagex and are both wikis owned by Jagex. Now, right clicking and saving their pictures, then uploading them to our wiki is like... stealing their work. Sure, there is fair use, we CAN use it, but we don't want to impress the people reading RSWiki based on JAGEX'S work. We want to impress them with OUR work.
It's not that exciting to type in "", press enter, then see this as the featured image. They'll just look at it and say "OH! Haha, I saw that in the KBase!" Nice image, but is it our work? No. Jagex's pre-made, clean cut/with transparency images aren't what make us a Wiki. Our images, Our work, that's what makes us a Wiki. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 18:18, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
Another thing to consider about the game guide images that i don't think ahs been addressed is that they are often taken in the WIP (work in progress) server environment, rather than the RC (release candidate) environment that we all play on. Models, graphics, and animations are often different in the WIP environment as compared to the RC environment, for instance this image of the Dragon pickaxe:
Clearly that is not the current Dragon pickaxe model, but it is on the Knoweldge base right now. All in all, I think the use of Knoweldge Base images should be discouraged but not prohibited. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 00:26, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, but if it is what I think it is, then yes, I agree, leaks and other interesting things that CAN NOT be found ingame or screenshotted/edited by a player should be uploaded to their relevant article. That dragon pickaxe image is very interesting, as it shows a leak/prototype of the dragon pickaxe (off topic: hehe, well this brings back memories Wink). So not ALL game guide images should be replaced, and exceptions can be made. To sum up, game guide images are discouraged unless an exception is given? Idk, just throwing out ideas of what we could do with this template... --Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:18, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Actually I was making another argument against not using Game Guide images, because they're often different from in-game images, as evidenced by the dragon pickaxe. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 05:25, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Oh. Good point. Well what shall we do with all of this? Should we make a template for this, or continue the discussion on the other forum you mentioned? I don't really know what to do now as it's my first YG forum, and there's so few people talking here Concerned Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:28, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Well, I lie your image better than my image, but I think my template "message" is a bit clearer. So I could just replace your image on the existing thread, and we could try to hammer out a message we both like and then let it coast until we get some consensus. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 05:39, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Alright, sounds good to me. I think. Lemme clarify, you want to... use that^ lectern on the template, then come up with what the template will say, put those two together and submit them to the forum you mentioned, wait, then after that conversation is done and closed, the template should be used? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:51, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
After the conversation is done and closed, the template will be used. That's what consensus is all about! kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 06:05, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Oh, well that's good ^_^ So... are we done on this forum? Shall we close it? :o Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 08:16, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Well I've added the lectern image to the template on the other forum, and at this point we could either discuss exactly what the message should be here or there, doesn't matter to me either way. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 16:23, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Well, since we're here anyway, why not? Now, I think what I wrote^ was a good base, but it should sound more like the Standard detail template. Here goes:
Feel free to tweak that as you wish, remember, we're kinda acting as a team on this Lol and DOES THAT NOT LOOK PRO?! For my first time making a template, I would say so =D Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 22:33, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
I only take issue with one thing, it specifically says the game guide, but images can be taken from other places too, for instance other fan sites. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 01:09, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
There, I changed a few things up to include external websites and that we should preserve the wiki's uniqueness. Again, feel free to tweak if you feel it needs tweaking. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 04:32, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
I trimmed it up a bit, the description was a bit long. Look good to you? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 04:49, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
OMG! That looks ALOT better, you even used some pret-ty fancy words in there :D Alright , so shall we submit it over to the other forum? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:48, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
Yes... via the complex submission and approval process.... *copies, pastes* kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 12:45, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
What about adding 'another' between 'an' and 'external fansite'. Otherwise, it'd seem like the Game Guide is not an external website, which would make it seem like we are Jagex. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 16:37, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
"or an another external fansite", done! Kidding, but I did add what you meant. Its a good point actually. As far as we're conserned, the KB is just another fansite, even though its got less info than even the worst fansite <_< kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 16:46, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
Great. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 16:47, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

How about we ask Jagex???--Joe Click Here for Awesomeness 17:37, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

What's with the fluffy bunny? Shouldn't it be a lectern? — Enigma 22:24, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Mega-ironically, Hapi007, who uploaded that lectern image, got it from a third party site. So we couldn't use that without being extreme hypocrites. That's just temporary until we get a new image kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 01:43, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Just a comment - Why should there be execptions for monsters that are too big to fit in the screen? Look at the file history for General Graardor's picture - The older version would work fine for this article was it not for the fact that it was taken before HD (In my opinion, the older version is actually better!). If someone were to take a screenshot that captures K'ril from a good angle, at the expense of cutting off parts of his body, then why not use it? --Armadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png 06:58, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Well although I have no compunctions against cutting off part of the monster's body for good angle and HD in game, I don't think that screenshot of General Graardor was either... Take a look at it before transparency was applied. The ground only looks like that in SD. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 15:26, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
To quote myself "The older version would work fine for this article was it not for the fact that it was taken before HD." I was merely pointing out Graardor as an example. My point was that we don't necessarily need to fit the entire monster in the image for the image to look good and work well in an article - The older screenshot of Graardor could be used were it not for the fact that it's Standard Detail. Armadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png 16:50, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
Oops sorry, I misread! Well if anyone uploaded an HD image of graardor or k'ril, it'd be up to the community to decide whether its better than the Game Guide image or not. I'd probably be more inclined to use the HD image even if some parts are cut off, but its hard to say until I actually see it. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 16:53, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

So what else do we have to discuss? I've been gone for a week or two, sorry for that, but our friend Ж has done us a favor and created his own lectern image Smile which will replaced Hapi's external site lectern, so that's solved. Do we all agree that this template is well, fine? And do we agree that we can ship it off to the Image Policy Follow-up discussion? Or should we do it their way and use the information bubble wearing a mask? >_< Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 22:00, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the version with the lectern. The info bubble wearing a mask isn't exactly the best quality, anyway. --Armadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png 22:03, October 9, 2009 (UTC)
Alriiiiiighhhhhtt... soo... should consensus be given as to whether we use this template, or should we just skip ahead and ship it off to Image Policy Follow-up? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 03:47, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Why even have a template?

Comment - I am fine with not using images from other websites purely because of preference, and maybe later I can bring it up to the YG because I think its really inefficient to redo work that already done and only puts another layer between us and Jagex in terms of synergy. But essentially posting on a big banner that says using images that qualify under fair use is disrespectful and wrong is just plain incorrect and misguided. How much more clear can Jagex say "You can use these images, but don't pretend you made them". Thats why on their fansite page they say "We can revoke your permission to use these at any time" and why they release content to fansites watermarked.Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 18:47, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps "disrespectful" was poor word choice (and I've changed it), but I definately feel that we should strive to replace images that come from the game guide with similar or better images of our own, simply to establish the wiki as an independent fansite that's not relient on Jagex's website. No one would be forced to replace images with this tag, its more ofa notice for interested editors to see if they can get a better screenshot of the subject in-game. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:53, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
There are thousands (I assume) of images that do not rely on the gameguide. We are independent, we are one of the most popular fan websites for Runescape and we don't need to distance ourselves from Jagex content to establish independence we already have. I dont understand the need to restrict use of images they use and then allow us to use. There are also some very rare screenshots in the game guide that few of our players could obtain on their own and of the correct quality. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 00:23, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
This is not an order saying that every single game guide image has to be replaced with an image taken in game even if it sacrifices quality. This is just a method to identify all images taken from the game guide and other site, so that editors can, of their own volition, try to attain new screenshots in-game, hopefully of better quality than the Game Guide image. If they upload a screenshot that's terrible, then we'll of course revert to the old game guilde image we had... kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 00:33, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Obviously its not a regulation like all of the other templates. But by using this we are pretty much saying "this is the way it should be, replace it". Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 00:35, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Would it help if the language were softened up a bit to sound less mandatory? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 00:36, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

No, its not about the language. This is not the right thread so I don't want to derail it. Its the idea that we need to make our own content and distance ourselves from Jagex made content. There is no reason to replace it, its obviously of acceptable quality if its in the game guide and legally they are granting us permission to use it. Also that just because its a template means its mandatory thing doesn't really make up for much because if it were true we wouldn't need the template in the first place. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 01:52, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
How is there no reason to replace it? I can think of two right now:

  1. Per the first line of the Image policy... (obviously)
  2. The reason we HAVE that policy is because we are our own site,
    we are not Jagex. Our images and work should not plagiarize Jagex's words, nor should it directly copy their clean-cut/transparent images (I'm being more in general right now, btw, not just towards images). We should have our own images, our own text. Sure, Jagex's images are great to copy, because of their high quality; but the truth is, you can get the same exact quality if you really try in-game. Images are one of the many things that makes RSW unique from the Game Guide and other sites; have other sites taken the time out to create something as beautiful as this? No. That's what makes RSW unique. Our work. Not Jagex's. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 03:39, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
All of those reasons are essentially "Because I think we should". We legally have permission, they look great, and per RS:IAR we can do what we please. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:35, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
It's not only what I think. I'm not the only one who thinks they should be removed. And just because we have the policy RS:IAR, it means we can totally ignore another policy whenever we want? To me, it seemed like RS:IAR should only be used when an exception is truly needed. We shouldn't be ignoring other policies all the time just because we might have that privilege. If all you plan on doing is ignoring the image policy, we might as well not have the image policy at all. The policy wasn't made to be ignored, it was made to be followed and to be ignored only on special occasions. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 00:50, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
That wasn't my point. What if the way I think we need to accept images from Jagex is because I believe it keeps the spirit of the wiki? How would you convince me otherwise? Thats not exactly a logical point to bring up, so just saying what you believe like it should be true doesn't really make your argument any more true and any easier to actually respond to. RS:IAR should be used in a case where something could benefit the wiki, but isn't because of a policy. In this case, we have images we have permission to use from Jagex, along with concept art (in another YG thread), they are pre-formatted to our specifications with transparency and in the correct image format as well as being the correct size, and for some reason (because we should?) we should replace them and use our own. That does not make sense to me. We are already very well established with our own userbase and completely unique content and features I have yet to see elsewhere so its not like using images from the game guide jeopardizes that, and also that we already have thousands of images that don't exist from the game guide so the game guide wont become our only image source or somehow replace our unique images (like image of the month). Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 17:19, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
Don't think of this template as a "GET A SCREENSHOT INGAME ASAP OR WE BE JUST LEECHIGN OFF OF KB" notice, the way I consider it is its more of a way to quickly identify and categorize images taken from the knowledge base so editors can see what images are from the KB and if they can take a superior screenshot themselves. Like I previously said, if they can't take a superior screenshot, like for K'ril Tsutsaroth (who is probably too big to get in full frame), then we'd leave the KB image up. This event would be tidily covered by IAR. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 22:47, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
I agree with that, but I doubt anyone else sees it the way you and I do. The other image templates usually indicate something bad with an image and needs replacement, why would they all of a sudden agree that an image is good and if there is a better one than it should be replaced. But I fear people like lil will go around replacing good images because its in the spirit of the wiki. Its also about the general acceptance of Jagex content we have permission to use (see the concept art thread)Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 23:39, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
I agree on this, but screenshots also add more detail sometimes. Such is the case in NPC location, or sometimes Runecrafting altars. Also, not to seem like backseat modding, but pointing the finger at "people like lil" really isn't necessary, is it? Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 01:08, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
I don't see how it is an insult. He feels that in the spirit of the wiki this should be passed, so why would he not start changing images now that a template encourages the behavior? Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 02:53, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
I understand that people might take the template the wrong way, which is why I suggested clearing up the wording so its clear to anyone reading the template that its not necessarily a bad thing to have knowledge base image, but that its worth investigating to see if they can get a better screenshot. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 01:15, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I was getting at, I'm just not good at wording my thoughts occasionally. A player can usually get an equal or better screenshot than provided in the Knowledge Base. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 01:17, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
I don't like the sound of "people like lil" either, sounds to me like you're assuming I would replace every single GG image with a bad one, because I think it's good. Trust me, if I was to replace every single game guide image, I would take my time to make it the best it can be. I would take my time with it, capture it in HD, save in PNG, add transparency if needed, then add it to the article correctly. You make it sound like I'm one of those people who takes a screenshot with a bucket in their inventory, doesn't crop it, saves in JPEG, and uploads. If you've seen any of my images, you'd see that I'm the exact opposite of that. I'm not some kind of underachiever when it comes to images. I'd rather not be assumed to be that way either.
You seem to have misunderstood. I'm actually on the same page as you and Psycho. I don't think ANYONE should just go crazy and upload new images as fast as they can. Like you said, K'ril would be very hard to capture in a good shot, we would obviously keep his game guide image until someone uploads a perfect-even-better-than-the-first-image. But until then (if that does ever happen), we would keep the Game Guide image. It's just stupid crap that get's me mad, how people put no effort into some of their images. What I mean, for example, is almost all of the Summoning familiars. Every single person who has done Wolf Whistle can summon a Spirit wolf, yet, out of the hundreds, maybe thousands of people on this wiki who have done that quest, nobody can take 5 minutes and 200 coins out of their life to buy a Spirit wolf pouch, summon it, and take a decent picture? We currently have this as the spirit wolf's image, which is from the GG. This just shows laziness. And anyone who's thinking "Oh, well diriz, you haven't done that! You're just as lazy as I am!" Wrong. I've uploaded at least a few images replacing GG images, and if people agree with me to help get rid of the GG images, I'll do ALOT more. I'm not gonna do this all by myself, it's not only my job to run around RS taking screenshots and editing. I hope you see my point now. Things which are very hard to capture with good quality should be left alone, however, easy-as-hell things like SUMMONING A SPIRIT WOLF should be replaced, definitely. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 05:49, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
Whats wrong with the game guide version of that image? In fact, the one you are reffering to [1]. We should strive for images that are detailed yet small enough not to distract or take up a lot of space. That game guide image does exactly that. My point is, the game guide is missing thousands of images that we have. So by encouraging their use its not as if we are not doing any work. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 06:18, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Tebuddy, I don't wanna have to explain this seven more times. I already told you that I agreed with you that things should only be replaced when possible. K'ril = Very hard, not very possible, therefore he should not be replaced. Spirit wolf = easy as hell, anyone can do it, anyone who is not willing to do it is lazy, and does not follow our policy. I've stated why we have the policy. I've stated why it is lazy to not make a new image of the Spirit wolf. I've seen much better images made by our own editors than by Jagex's game guide. Don't make it sound like the GG is the Ultimate Godly Book of Epic Images. It's not. In fact, I find flaws with GG images everytime I see them on the wiki:

I will be using File:Splatter.png as an example.

  • People usually upload them in GIF, when they do. They don't right click, view image, screenshot and save it, they just right click and save it. Therefore, we can't upload a new version of it if we needed to. File:Splatter.png easily shows this. If Jagex updated the Splatter's look, then we would need to replace it. Now think of how this is for a WIDELY USED GIFS on the wiki. Maybe a GIF is used in a certain userbox, and therefore is on many userpages. Oh, well they changed the image's look, NOW WHAT DO WE DO? Take down the image and break hundreds of links? Not smart.
  • There is a white line around them that is unappealing to the eye on any other background other than white. I suspect you use a white backgrounded theme, as you haven't complained about it yet. Take a look at a few screenshots I took of the Pest Control page which contains mostly GG images. These screenshots show what GG images look like on a background other than white:


See that? GG Images aren't as beautiful as you think they are. It would be very, very hard to get rid of that line without ruining the colors, and think about how many GG images you would have to get rid of the line from: A L O T.

So do you see my point, finally? GG images are not perfect, no matter how much you think they are, and using a GG image in place of something simple like a Spirit wolf (which can be EASILY made for the wiki) is just sad. Laziness. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 06:42, September 25, 2009 (UTC) Also, I'm still a bit offended by "people like lil". I take pride in my work. It's not fair for you to assume that I would go run off and upload a bunch of rushed/bad images just because that template is there. And in addition to that, have you even seen my images? Did you take the chance to look at them before assuming?

Your problem here seems to be statements. Stating something does not make it true. My question is why. Why is it lazy? Why does policy mean no (policy can be changed per nothing is permanent)? Why does it need to be replaced. Laziness is a lack of will to do something just because, inefficiency is recreating something we already have a perfect variation of. Also, the skin you showed is what I assume to be the gaming skin (I use monobook) and every other skin uses a white content background and I would like to assume very few users use the gaming skin as compares to the other 6 that are not dark blue. Its well and good that we agree some images don't need to be replaced, but at the core of the disagreement is that you still feel we should. And my people like lil comment was not to say that you don't do a good job, just to say that because you believe something is the right way to do it, you will, not meant to be an insult in the least. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 07:07, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
So you don't agree that it is lazy that people would rather break a policy than create their own work in a matter of 5 minutes? That's not lazy?
I disagree in keeping all GG images. I agree with keeping some images as an exception. Simple as that. I don't know how to explain it any more, quite frankly, that part is confusing me now.
I find a problem with this. Sure, the gaming skin is not used by many. So what you're saying is, it's ok to leave the images like that because so few people use it? I don't care if one person uses it, people shouldn't be treated unequally just because you (or anyone) doesn't want to upload a new image. That's not fair. And what about the new upcoming Wiki logo and theme? Maybe the background won't be white, the wiki theme will probably be the default theme though. Now, if it's the default, then that means MANY users will be using it. Therefore, MANY users will see this white line around GG images. See the problem? Not everyone here at the wiki uses a white background, you have to think about them too. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:09, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
Why do you get to determine what is lazy behavior or not? Why is it lazy to not want to run to the godwars dungeon (Im level 118 and its still challenging and will take at minimum some food) and take a nice snapshot of bandos to then apply transparency or request someone you know to do it for you, and then upload that image to the wiki and place it when you could go here [2], save the image, and re upload ready to go? Why is that laziness? That is efficiency at its best. Why does lazyness even pay a factor in this discussion, there are no rules about being lazy, all editors are equal, even lazy ones. Hundreds of images from the game guide are in special areas like the one I mentioned and there will easily be more than a hundred exceptions or more. What about minigames, monsters with erratic/random spawn times, monsters in high level areas, monsters in quests, randoms etc etc. We should not even think about separating our image base by game guide/not game guide, it doesn't matter, none of the content is really ours anyway and screenshots are no different than game guide images. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 22:50, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
The fundamental principle of the template is that players can usually get better images than the Game Guide, at least in my opinion. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 22:32, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
I did not say that?! I'm not asking anyone to go to GWD, and do all of that and whatnot, I specifically said it was lazy for one to not summon a spirit wolf! If there's a problem with cropping/transparency/or whatever the hell, then they can still upload a non-cropped/non-trans image. That's what we have {{Transparent}} and {{Crop}} for. If an image needs to be cropped or trans'd, then the first uploader would SIMPLY add that template, or they would say in their upload summary "needs trans/crop." Whether the image has a fix-up template on it or not, I'm sure someone would notice it very soon, in a matter of hours or days. Chaos Monk is right, we usually CAN create an image better than the game guide, with exception such as K'ril. But fine, we'll take this "laziness" stuff out of the conversation, but I don't see how you don't agree with me on this! We have a policy, and if someone breaks it, then it should be replaced, am I right? If you have a problem with the rule of GG images, make your own thread and propose a change. Every time I come here I see that you've made another excuse for me to then think about for 5 minutes and reply to. Hooray, an argument. I didn't make this thread to dread coming here every day to argue with you, TEbuddy. I made this thread to discuss a template with the people who DON'T want GG images (notice the title? "Game Guide image template".), not argue with you day after day about whether they should be replaced or not. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 19:10, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
When did this escalate from a discussion into an argument?

All I have repeatedly asked for is a good logically sound reason why we need to do something. Take for example, if the images were being used illegally than we would have a real reason to remove. If we don't we may get a notice from Jagex jeopardizing their trust in us or any number of nasty side effects along the way between wikia and us. But, so far all you have said is along the lines of "How can you not agree? its so lazy not to do and the policy!". Your solution with tags for images is also unrealistic because all your doing is adding another step to the process. Does every image get attention? Are all the categories for maintenance empty because everything gets done in a timely manner? No. The reason I brought up the GWS dungeon is because unlike the spirit wolf, a vast majority of images aren't found in 3 minutes of gameplay. Runescape is huge man, freaking huge, and Jagex does half the work for us. We are not a Runescape photography service, we are a more comprehensive game guide, so why play games with we made this, they made that, its a waste of time. Notice that I also have not opposed anything so really all this is a discussion which does not affect this proposal at all. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 20:20, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I have no idea what went through your mind when you just typed that; laziness and policy? Those are the ONLY reasons I listed? Please, scroll up and read through these past few days of conversation because, sir, you are terribly mistaken. In case you can't do that, I shall list them here ONE MORE TIME, AND ONE MORE TIME ONLY, in a very short form:
  1. Breaks a policy.
  2. We are a wiki, not Jagex. Using Jagex's images here DOES effect our self image, per all of these reasons. Jagex's images don't make us one of the best and most used fansites, OUR images do.
  3. The ugly white line around GG images. I honestly don't care if only 1 person out of thousands of people uses the Gaming theme, why should he/she have to look at that white line? No matter how many people use the Gaming theme, they shouldn't have to see it, people with a white background don't. That's not fair.
    1. OUR images have the potential to not have that white line. OUR images have the potential to look EVEN BETTER than the Game Guide, and they can be if you let them be and work for them. Sure, images may not look their best when uploaded, they may only be in HD, with no trans or crop. That can be fixed very easily, by adding an image template, such as {{Transparency}} or {{Crop}}. Who honestly cares if we're adding another step to the process, it takes a matter of hours or days for someone to notice and do this. We have so many editors here, and so many of them contribute to the Image Maintenance project. They don't sign that list for nothing, having their signature on that project shows that they are regular checkers of Category:Images needing transparency and such. You act as if it's such a challenge to add transparency or give the image a tag. It's not, it's not A HOLE UTHER STEP AMGZ0RZ EVERYWUN RUN THIS'LL TAKE HOURZ!. I'd gladly add transparency or crop or do anything else, and I'm sure there is a crapload of other people who'd be willing to also. If a person needs help with cropping or transparency, it won't take 3 months to post a message on an admin's talk page and ask.
  4. Laziness. A person who uploads images from the game guide shows everybody the minimal amount of work put into his/her images and the Wiki. It also shows that he/she is not very reliable, as he/she is breaking a policy.
  5. Again, the policy. If you have a problem with the policy, take it up with the admins, create your own thread, do what you want.
Basically, you asking me for more and more reasons why the images should be replaced just shows that you keep ignoring the biggest reason of all: THE POLICY, THE POLICY, THE POLICY! It's not that hard to understand, this thread was made to discuss with people who agree with the policy and who are willing to help out with future images. You are turning this into a thread which discusses why these images should replaced. Your answer, per the policy + what I've said.. The end. If you have a problem with the policy, please, good god, create your own thread because I'm sick of "DISCUSSING" (as you say) something off topic as to my thread. We've had the GG and External sites rule in the policy for I don't know how long. This thread was created based on the fact of what the policy is right now. Right now, the policy is that GG images and external site's images should not be allowed, and therefore we should replace them! What you're turning this into is what the policy may be in the future, or what the policy may be after you start a yew grove article about this. The policy does not say "Keep GG images because TEbuddy wants to", it says "Images must be created by the wiki community, not by other fansites or the Game guide." You may say "but Diriz, why?" -.- I've given you plenty of reasons which I've listed in this post up there^. I can't stress this enough, if you don't agree with the policy (which is what all of my reasons are based on), create your own Yew Grove thread, as you are getting off topic from what this thread was meant to be: A DISCUSSION OF A FUTURE TEMPLATE BASED OFF OF THE POLICY. I might have to close this and put anything I want to say over at the "Images and media policy follow-up" thread. This may be my last post before I ask an admin to close this. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:08, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
Try to work with me for a minute here before you lose your head. IAR and not permanent dictate policy doesn't mean anything for certain and the white line around images appears when you use one of the two least used skins on the wiki. The default skin set by administrators which most don't bother changing doesn't show it, and the other themes don't show it, so essentially your argument is to cater to a minority which is not practical. Your argument from self image is hugely based on your person perspective and is essentially irrelevant, what if I or someone else feels that our image is only preserved if we used Jagex images? Why is our idea of what our image should be not as good as yours? Please try to calm down by the way, ranting and raving because I am voicing an opinion wont get any of us anywhere and with every reply you seem to more irately state the same thing over and over. I also again have not opposed anything, your treating this discussion like its the red or green light on everything. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:32, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry TEbuddy, I can't reply right now. I've calmed down a bit, but I still would really rather not keep posting here every day, on and on, it's really just you asking the same things and me answering the same things. It's repetitive. I won't stop yet though, I'll try and answer you tomorrow, I have to much homework to finish. Good night. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 04:09, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
So break the repetitive nature by explaining to me why. From what I can tell, you just feel really strongly that images used from the game guide violate the spirit of the wiki or something similar. There is no legal or logical reason why we should so strongly recommend that images from the game guide be replaced. Sure there are times when the game guide image is not the best, but my only concern is that we end up never using Jagex content that is either superior or just plain cool only because of a policy. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 05:16, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
But what if the template made it clear that its not a bad thing to have some game guide images, but it is worth it to see if a better screenshot can be obtained in person? Its true that some people may interpret this as "OMG REPLACE EVERY GG IMAGE WITH ONE I TOOK", but these people (who will be the minority) can be dealt with the same way as people who consistently upload other images that break the media policy, warnings, then if severe enough, blocks. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 16:56, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
I had already agreed with that, I was just trying to talk it out with lil as he obviously does not feel that way. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 17:47, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
Apologies then. I thought when you said "No, its not about the language. This is not the right thread so I don't want to derail it. Its the idea that we need to make our own content and distance ourselves from Jagex made content." you meant that no change in language could make the template OK with you. What if, then, we had two templates, one for third party websites other than the Knowledge Base (which I don't think you are defending, correct?) which says basically what the previously proposed template says and mandates a replacement image taken in game, and one for Knowledge Base images which says:
This image is taken from the Knowledge Base. Its copyright is owned by Jagex Ltd. and is used here under the terms of Fair Use. While Knowledge Base images are acceptable for use on the Wiki, editors should check to see if they can take a superior screenshot on their own in-game.
kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:17, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
Something like that would be awesome. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 01:22, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
Assuming its OK with Driz, the only issue left is what icon to use. I sill laugh to myself when I think of how the image we chose was a third party image Lol kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 01:32, September 29, 2009 (UTC)


Comment - This isn't related, but why is there a picture of an eagle lectern in the template? --Iiii I I I 00:39, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Um... no idea. It was Drizz's idea and I thought it looked good <_< If you have a better suggestion my ears are open. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 00:41, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
What about one of the RuneScape Duel Cards? Maybe File:RuneScape Duel Cards.png?--Iiii I I I 00:43, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Potentially, what's your rationale for choosing that image? kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 00:52, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
It's taken from the Game Guide and File:Gilded eagle lectern2.png isn't? --Iiii I I I 00:53, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Actually its not >_> Its from the Downloads section. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 00:55, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
Oh...--Iiii I I I 00:55, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
What image would you put? --Iiii I I I 01:03, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
What's wrong with the lectern? — Enigma 01:48, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
I chose the lectern because it represents a book, a book = game guide. A RuneScape duel card wouldn't fit correctly in my opinion.Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 03:39, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
I found the image of the Lectern on this site, btw. Miasmic Blitz icon.png Hapi007 Talk! Sign! . 15:42, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
The irony is palpable. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 18:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
Thats rich Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 19:36, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
Well that sucks. Hapi, I thought you made it >_<... I guess not. I've replaced it with a fluffy bunny, not because of it's reference to external sites, but because fluffy bunnies rule. This is only temporary until we find a new image, btw. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:09, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - The symbol should not be a major concern/priority at this point. It should be relevant, but honestly, it's a simple, let's move on. Zaros symbol.pngChaos Monk Talk SignCoins 250.png 23:36, September 28, 2009 (UTC)


I've been going through and updating a few pictures and thought I'd like to let anyone know that the image has been replaced with this. Just a comment that I use the earth skin and the infobox being black is what alerts me to Game guide images. Ж 18:12, October 9, 2009 (UTC) Mahogany eagle lectern.png

Thank you very much, um, Ж =D! See, that's the kind of work that should be done for the wiki. Taking time out to go to your house, screenshot, edit, upload and whatnot, that's just great :) Tyvm. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:50, October 9, 2009 (UTC)


So that's what we're left with after all that discussion.

Support - It affirms that although some Game Guide images are acceptable, and also requests editors to attempt to get a better screenshot of their own, with an appropriate sense of urgency. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 02:10, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - This is a reasonable compromise, and it deals with the preference of using screen shots. I'm sure that some editor every once in awhile will plow through this category anyway and try to replace these images with screenshots, but these shouldn't be automatically deleted either. --Robert Horning 03:28, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Would help a lot. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 05:28, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Useful and I like it... but I just changed the formatting and wording a bit, and I think the Knowledge Base is called Game Guide now (Knowledge Base redirects to Game Guide), so I fixed the link.   az talk   05:33, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all. Also, when adding this template, don't just add it to all the images on Nightgunner's page, some of them are not from the Game Guide. Me and PGLB told him that on his talkpage, but he didn't seem to notice. --Nup(T) 09:32, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Comment/Slight Oppose - If we are going to be using the term "acceptable" I believe that we should define what is acceptable either in the template or on the policy page. --Armadyl symbol.png Nightgunner Talk Illuminated Book of Law.png 10:43, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Seems like this template will gently encourage users to capture and original picture, hopefully of better quality, which will definitely improve the wiki overall. Air rune.png Tollerach hates SoF Fire rune.png 14:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Looks good to me. My only concern would be that it doesn't show at first glance that another image should be taken. Maybe add a few boldfaced words, or bold a few existing words? The existing bold text just doesn't get the point across in short form imo. Maybe I'm wrong. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 21:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support if - We keep the general wording and only lightly encourage replacement images per the current template. Also changed the very end to specify the users client. Cap and goggles.pngTEbuddy 21:13, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Support - We need a Game Guide template. I'm sick of using the cleanup tag to suggest otherwise. Black cavalier.png Zenihdrol Tribal top (blue).png 13:46, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Actually, now that I think about it, having the lectern there looks kind of weird. The people over at Image Policy Follow-up have all of their images as an information icon in some different variation for each template (,,, etc.) The image they've used for the Game Guide image template has a Theiving mask on it,, which IMO shows the concept of external sites much better than a lectern. Keep in mind that when I created this thread I had no knowledge of the conversation over there, I did not know there was an Image Policy Follow-up thread. Now that I know, I think that the information icon with a mask should be used instead of a lectern. It looks nice, and simply fits in with the other image maintenance templates Anyone agree? Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 18:35, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Actually, it looks kinda dumb to me. But hey, maybe that's just me {Whistle}. --Nup(T) 03:45, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - In the left eye of the mask, there is one white pixel (from the 'i'), which (to me) looks horrible. Could someone please remove it? Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 20:42, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


Re-support - I never really cared what the logo was, the message is what's important. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 22:46, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Support - What I said. --Nup(T) 09:24, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per all. Ancient talisman.png Oil4 Talk 11:43, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Per Psycho. Quest.png Gaz Lloyd 7:^]Events!99s 13:21, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Support - Looks good to me. Shweet. Quest point cape.pngLil Diriz 77 Talk Summoning-icon.png 20:39, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Comment - Do we really need this re-supporting thing? I mean come on, almost everybody who supported up there would support this as well. --Nup(T) 09:42, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Yea... I guess you're right.

Closed - The template has passed consensus and can be used to identify game guide images. I will create the template at [[Template:Game Guide image]]. Also, since consensus was achived prior to the image change, I'll use the old image. If you feel the image should be changed, please discuss it on the template talk page. kitty.pngPsycho Robot talkSilver bar.png 16:39, October 20, 2009 (UTC)