Forum:Entitled to their own articles

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This thread was archived on 13 March 2017 by Liquidhelium.

Titles should have their own articles. This subject recently came up in the wiki's Discord and there are people who would like to see this, however 2 months ago in December, this proposal was rejected when it was first suggested in an RFS. But I feel this should be reconsidered. The amazing Sparky Kitty has made an example of how an article for a title could look like:


[Name] the Fun Guy/Gal
Male the Fun Guy
Female the Fun Gal
Release date 10 October 2016 (Update)
Members Yes
Position Suffix
Source Gameplay
(The Arc)
Category Miscellanious Titles

The Fun Guy/Gal is a title which is unlocked by discovering all the mushrooms in the Arc.


Using this infobox, we can generate a list with DPL like there is for Music/track list. This split to articles and letting the list automatically generate will increase the searchability of the titles and how to unlock them. Because quite frankly Titles is just getting too big. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 11:08, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

EDIT: Titles will stay. Seperate pages are additional, not instead of Titles. Titles will however be changed to look like music/track list.

Discussion

Support - As suggester Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 11:08, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Sure - After all, we've got individual articles fer music, which I'm sure is searched fer a lot less than the titles are What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 11:20, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Support - Okay, after some thoughts and as the Titles article is being kept and DPL'd sounds good Maximus Gugu of ArmadylQuick chat button.png: Your Friendly Neighborhood Artist. 11:22, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Support - As helper. It would be easier to find titles, and plenty of peeps willing to work on this.
Purple partyhat.png Sparky Kitty the WikianFiremaking.png 12:52, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Support - but make sure there's still collection pages too, things like [[Prifddinas/Titles]] or something, because of things like comp requirements. User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 13:25, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

A list of Prifddinas titles are featured on Prifddinas#Titles itself. Plus Completionist cape and trimmed both have their own lists of reqs as well showing the appropriate ones. :) Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 13:31, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Strong neutral/Have a mixture - Per my comments here. One of the biggest things we need to work on here is consistency - While titles like "The fun gal" would be great to have their own page, other titles would be as empty as music tracks. What if we split it up so multiple titles accessed through the same method (eg all SGS titles) are on a subpage? (it doesn't even need to be a subpage of Titles, it could be SGS/Titles). But then yea is that even consistent... neutral for a reason. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 13:43, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Have to agree with Haidro in this point. Is better to look and check on lists for titles of the same category than going to every title article to look for it. Even if titles article would still exists, would still be as laddy as it is now. Maximus Gugu of ArmadylQuick chat button.png: Your Friendly Neighborhood Artist. 18:19, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Oppose - Sounds like it would achieve very little. The only problem with the current situation, as far as I'm aware, is Titles being too big and laggy and things, but that could be solved by splitting it into subpages like GU, e.g. Titles/SGS, Titles/Quests etc. Giving each title its own article would just add unnecessary clicks to people looking for information about titles. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 15:40, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Less clicks really, because they were looking for a specific title, so they went to the title directly instead of going to titles and then searching for the one they were looking for. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 15:49, March 7, 2017 (UTC)
It will be easier to be able to search for a title and find out about it, then to have to scroll through the large titles page Purple partyhat.png Sparky Kitty the WikianFiremaking.png 15:51, March 7, 2017 (UTC)
Under the presumption that they knew the exact title they were looking for. They also possibly wouldn't know whether to include "the" or something. And I am not really looking forward to creating all those redirects. User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 17:57, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Weak support - I don't think we need to create a separate article for every little thing, although I can see the merits. --Ixfd64 (talk) 18:20, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Make subpages - Neutral/ Support - (Edit: See my second comment on this thread below) Searching title already redirects to the corresponding title in Titles page, or to a disambiguation page. (I'm not sure if this is the case with all titles, I have checked plenty of them, but I have never checked them all) With one simple search you already see the title you're looking for, as well as how to unlock it.

Splitting pages: Pros:

  • For slow connections smaller page is more ideal (right?)
  • Quicker way to see release dates for titles (assuming release dates are added to the infobox)

Cons:

Neutral:

  • Some pages will be as empty as some music track pages
  • Splitting takes time and offers (almost) no benefit doing so

Something about splitting the pages irks me, but I don't know what it is. All in all I really have no solid reason to oppose this idea, neutral/half-support? I'd be glad to support subpages tho. Lucky chaotic claw.png Metal Angel cut your wrists sample text 18:24, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Comments to Haidro, Fswe1, Metal3, and others - A big reason to create an article for each and every title is mainly so Titles could be automatically generated with DPL like it's done on Music/track list. Ofcourse a part of them will be as empty/stubby as some music tracks, but for me it's either all titles or none. Ofcourse there can be subpages for collections of titles, like all SGS titles together and other cases like that. But those subpages could also be generated with DPL by using the infobox on those seperate articles. There could also potentially be subpages based on the categories in the Titles interface; "Titles of Nobility", "Military Ranks", "Accolades", "Descriptions", and "Miscellanious Titles". Titles will stay, but will look more like Music/track list basically. Because quite frankly, just splitting if off to subpages is just moving the problem and not fixing it really. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 20:56, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

I'm keen for this. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 20:43, March 9, 2017 (UTC)
Hm, okay. Would it be alphabetical or by category or summat? User_talk:Fswe1 Fswe1 Brassica Prime symbol.png 12:54, March 10, 2017 (UTC)
The table will be sortable by multiple columns including names and categories (see example below), but default will be alphabetically by name of the title ignoring "the", "of", and "of the". Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 13:07, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

Oposse Waste of space. x5sQGus.png  ᚼ 𝕷𝖔𝖗𝖉 𝕸𝖆𝖓𝖕𝖆𝖎𝖓𝖙 ᚼ (t)(c) 21:45, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

That's not really an argument, is it? :P In the matter of space, it doesn't really matter if it's on Titles or on seperate pages, does it? Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 21:59, March 7, 2017 (UTC)
 ??? What? HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 20:43, March 9, 2017 (UTC)

Support If this is about bringing title pages into the well-functioning (in my opinion) system the music pages are working on as is, I'm all for it. Minnakht (talk) 22:07, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Strong Support for the following reasons:

  • The Titles article is currently the 51st longest page on the wiki. 6 months ago, it would have ranked 95th. Unlike most articles, it is constantly growing over time as Jagex continues to add new titles via promotions and content releases. With the release of Menaphos coming up, the list will surely grow even more, which will reduce usability even further.
  • The existing page is inconsistent and difficult to read. Many titles are described in paragraph form, while others are displayed in tables. Some information is also missing for all or nearly all titles, such as which category of the ingame Titles interface the title can be found under. Individual articles with a standardized infobox such as the great one prepared by Sparky Kitty would help alleviate this issue.
  • Dedicated pages are more searchable. If you search for a title currently, the best case scenario is that you're taken to an anchor on the Titles page (such as for Salty), while in other cases there is no redirect at all. Searching for "Empress of the Sandcastle" returns a list where the Titles page is the 4th result - and that's the first title I tried after Salty.
  • While titles such as Salty could yield relatively long and in-depth articles, even the shortest title articles (for titles sold through Solomon's) would meet the same standards for notability and page length that justify other articles for cosmetics bought through SGS, such as Sunglass monocles.
  • It's a win/win. As Salix has demonstrated, we can still have a list of all titles. The wiki can only improve by making this change.

Thanks, Slayer-icon.png Gangsterls Divination-icon.png talk 22:46, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Example of list for Titles

Title Members Source Notes Category Hidden
[Name] of the Arc Yes Gameplay The Arc Miscellaneous Titles No
[Name] the Fun Guy/Gal Yes Gameplay The Arc Miscellaneous Titles No
Salty [Name] Yes Gameplay The Arc Miscellaneous Titles Yes

Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 23:53, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Neutral/Very weak oppose As long as the original page full of titles remains, I have no problem with individual pages. I have in the past found great use to having all the titles concatenated into one article while playing titlescape. Apparently there is a way to automatically generate this list if we made subpages. If possible, it would be nice to keep related titles together in such a list instead of just smashing them into an alphabetical list in addition to or in stead of the group subpages for related titles. As for search-ability, I do not recall a title I've not been able to get to from the search bar. If we missed a redirect, I suppose splitting titles would ensure that they were searchable but the perceived benefit on this front is negligible and may not be worth the effort if this were to be the only reason we were considering splitting the titles Overall, I don't see a whole lot of benefit from giving each title its own page. It could even make it harder to find the title you're looking for if you don't know the name of the title and only know some detail of how to get it. Pikachu lv95 (talk) 01:20, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

I've added it above, but will state it here again, Titles will stay. However it'll look like Music/track list. The list is automatically generated based on the seperate articles, not on subpages. Example is shown above. We could add an additional parameter to the infobox where the subject of content can be entered so you could sort the titles based on that and have the related titles sorted together. Other than that it'll just be sorted alphabetically on default. Yes, you can find a title on Titles, but how long does it take? If you don't know the name of the title, but only a detail then you'd probably look for that detail. But is that detail always on Titles itself? Maybe. How would you know the title exists, if you don't know the name? Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 01:39, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

weak support and comment - I empathize with both sides of the argument. More titles = longer article and harder to search for a single title. Conversely, articles for each title = higher article count for the wiki and more work to create each article. This is definitely a minor project for whomever takes it on. I wouldn't think too many Title articles would end up being "stubs" since you are going to have to have descriptions on how to unlock them (some longer than others), and then adding in the navigation page things to each and every one. Why? Because every single one of the titles will link to: Treasure Hunter, Loyalty Shop, some quest, some minigame, some combat related thing, some monster drop, some skill related thing, etc etc etc. Some of these pages might even have multiple navs. --Deltaslug (talk) 03:15, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not going to make a Titles navbox, nor will I myself add a million navboxes to each title article. I will however monitor the use of navboxes that are added to title articles and take appropriate action when necessary. I don't see any reason to clutter them with navs just to make them seem bigger. Only appropriate navs will be added, e.g. SGS titles could be added to {{Solomon's General Store}}, or they could get there own nav, whatever is better. Titles will however NOT be added to {{Treasure Hunter}}, titles will need to go promotion navs if applicable. Could you give me an example of a title that you think would get a lot of navboxes? Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 07:52, March 8, 2017 (UTC)
We can do the same as with music, where there's a general navbox for titles including the big list and some combination lists like Prifddinas#Titles and making some content-specific lists for things like Titles#The Arc. User talk:ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of User talk:ThePsionic ThePsionic Special:Contributions/ThePsionic.png: RS3 Inventory image of Special:Contributions/ThePsionic 07:58, March 8, 2017 (UTC)
I like the idea of having a titles navbox, but of course categorized as to avoid having a 300 item navbox.. But a navbox with a link to all the priff titles, and one to all the pvm titles, sounds very nice.
Purple partyhat.png Sparky Kitty the WikianFiremaking.png 08:02, March 8, 2017 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of {{Music}}, so I'm not gonna do the same for titles, if you wanna have links to list of titles, then we could add those to the infobox. Since all titles will already have the infobox. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 08:13, March 8, 2017 (UTC)
We did have a navbox fer titles, but it got deleted oan the grounds that it wisnae very useful. If there's demand fer a Titles navbox later, then it can easily be recreated, but withoot linking every single title in the navbox, but rather tae the likes of subpages e.g. Solomon's General Store/Titles or new pages e.g. List of minigame related titles. I dinnae think a navbox fer specific titles such as the Prif titles is necessary though. Far as I can tell, the only music which has a dedicated navbox are the Dungeoneering music tracks, and that's the exception rather than the rule What I've done Ciphrius Kane Talk 08:47, March 8, 2017 (UTC)
I actually created {{Prifddinas music tracks}} a few years ago, so having one for Prifddinas titles wouldn't be too far of a stretch. Also by the navbox logic that I use, if the title is not linked from the navbox then the navbox shouldn't be on the article either. The only exception on the this rule being {{Music}}, because quite frankly I don't feel like editing 1153 articles to remove it... However it is usefull to have a link to different kinds of lists of music tracks from each music track, so I'm leaving that alone. :P However I don't wanna do this for titles too. This is where I draw the line. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 08:56, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Support - RS:G and all. But definitely have to keep the main page. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 22:18, March 9, 2017 (UTC)

Ty pls... Titles is staying, I've stated this multiple times. :P It will just change to look more like Music/track list. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 22:45, March 9, 2017 (UTC)
I never said it wasn't, however I wanted my opinion stated as that is what a discussion is about. svco4bY.png3Gf5N2F.png 00:38, March 10, 2017 (UTC)
Salix now: !!Triggered!!™ - Maximus Gugu of ArmadylQuick chat button.png: Your Friendly Neighborhood Artist. 00:49, March 10, 2017 (UTC)
Aha, on that bicycle™. People kept repeating it, and it seemed to me that they didn't actually read the thread by stating that. :S Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 01:17, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - So I've made a change, I've added a notes parameter to the titles infobox. This parameter can be used to basically categorise the titles, e.g. an Arc title would get |notes = [[The Arc]] and SGS titles would get |notes = Loyalty points: 1,000. This way the newly to-be-made-with-DPL table on titles will have a way to sort per content and get all related titles together. :) Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 01:33, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

Now that the related titles can still be easily seen together, the thing that irked me about this whole splitting thing is gone. Gj, support. Lucky chaotic claw.png Metal Angel cut your wrists sample text 00:59, March 11, 2017 (UTC)

Support - the arguments presented here and the demonstration of the template have convinced me to change my opinion since the last discussion we had about splitting the titles page. I do think navboxes for groups of similar titles (assuming they can be divided into groups in a sensible way) would be very helpful for navigation. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 15:59, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

Kitty has already made a navbox for the SGS titles. I'll add it here later. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 16:31, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - Navbox of SGS Titles below.. p.s.. we got Isobel Purple partyhat.png Sparky Kitty the WikianFiremaking.png 16:35, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful for each navbox t have "list of all title" linking to the full titles page, if that's possible. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 08:41, March 11, 2017 (UTC)
Added - Purple partyhat.png Sparky Kitty the WikianFiremaking.png 11:17, March 11, 2017 (UTC)
Fixed :P I don't think it's necessary to have a link to Titles on these navboxes. Having a link to SGS/Titles should suffice for this navbox. Because in my opinion (which I have been enforcing on all and every navbox (except {{Music}}, links to quest series from quest navboxes, and the special character navboxes)) is that every link on the navbox has to go both ways, e.g. the navbox having a link to an article and that article having that navbox. Because why would you want to link to something and not link back? And forcing the navboxes to link to Titles, also forces these navboxes to be added to Titles itself and I don't think you're waiting on another King Roald, which was solved with the aforementioned character navboxes. Unless you'd like to handle Titles like quest series are handled on quest navboxes. But I don't see a point in adding a link to titles on these navboxes when all title articles will (or should) have a link to Titles themselves. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 00:33, March 12, 2017 (UTC)

Strong Support - Amen, at least I won't have to link to that laggy superpage as much  Panjy16  02:48, March 12, 2017 (UTC)

Support - will be nice, there are many pages already just as short. will be easier for people to find information about titles rather than ctrl + f on the title page Star Talk ayy lmao ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 05:06, March 12, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - As a new(-er) or less active editor, I've seen pages like this and thought, "Why are there so many stubs here"? I'm coming to realize that although this site shares some commonality with sites like Wikipedia, it has significant differences. Although it makes sense if you can auto-generate the content, perhaps you might consider some verbiage on short pages like this that they are auto-generated and meant to be a simple description of the topic. Anyway, wanted you to be aware of how they look to new readers who might not be so involved in the community. XXghosgrammerXx (talk) 14:56, March 12, 2017 (UTC)

Support - per starieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeena's points. Law rune.png Samberen Nature rune.png 19:51, March 12, 2017 (UTC)

Closed - There is a clear consensus to allow individual titles to have their own pages. The main Titles page should be maintained. --LiquidTalk 00:52, March 13, 2017 (UTC)