Forum:Elf of Seren unblock request

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Forums: Yew Grove > Elf of Seren unblock request

User:Elf of Seren has appealed their block via their talk page:

Administrators, please see the reason for the appeal and make a decision. Note that blocks issued by community consensus must be removed by consensus as well and that the blocked user reserves the right to have comments copied onto any discussion relevant to the block.

Hey guys, it's been a few years, I figured I'd get around to this. It also came to my attention that someone in another discord server tried using this over 3 year old block against me, and I feel like the record should be set straight that I'm on good terms with most of the parties involved, specifically the offended party, Jayden (he deserves credit for being the first person to reach out a year or two ago). Basically I would like to reverse my block based on the "established criteria" (if you want to call it that) "until you cool off a little bit, you aren't welcome here either". All my drama, to my knowledge, was with Jayden and we're on good terms now, I've apologized profusely over the years to multiple people that were involved in the aforementioned situation, and we're all pretty friendly with each other now. I don't plan on rejoining the Discord, or editing a ton, but if I were to edit occasionally I would like to receive credit for it again. Thanks :)

— Elf of Seren

The initial block was given by Cook Me Plox as outlined here. Since Elf of Seren is currently blocked, please leave comments here. Elf can reply to them on his talk page, and they will be relayed here. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 16:11, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Discussion[edit source]

Question for Elf of Seren - In November 2018, a couple months after we forked from Fandom, there were edits on the Fandom RS wiki from a user called Battlerune35 that plagiarised content from our Wiki. Specifically, content related to the newly released quest Violet is Blue was copied. There's a lot of evidence that this other account was actually you. Do you have anything to say? HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 16:22, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I can't reply on the forum itself due to said block, but Re: Fandom Wiki and VIP Question:
I talked to Jayden about this in July of 2020, I'll just copypasta what I said to him then, because I think it get's the gist of everything across:
"Hey, someone sent me this, and I was gonna ignore it "whatever", but let's be real, that's not gonna work, so I figured I'd be honest, here's my side of what happened:
I made the lore wiki, at the time with the support of the lore community, because we weren't happy with what we call "wiki lore", and with being banned from the RS Wiki, and with the bureaucracy being supremely annoying, and I didn't know that copy/pasting was against the rules. When I learned that, I deleted everything that violated anything, and followed the correct procedures to make everything gucci. I figured, from that point on, I was leaving you guys alone, you'd leave me alone, and as we know, that isn't what happened. Anyways,
I later got my account unbanned from the Fandom Wiki, and I had been editing it already from the Battlerune account. I thought that it was ridiculous, and I still partially do, that I was banned from editing the wiki since, to this day, I have never vandalized it, only posting legitimate edits. Since I wasn't allowed to update the official wiki, I figured I'd edit the next best thing, at the same time doing my own thing, and leaving you guys to do yours.
Specifically regarding Violet is Blue, I honestly truly thought that I had put stuff in my own words, and it wouldn't be an issue. I was not trying to plagiarize or start drama, like what would that even do for me?
When approached about using that account, I've said I don't know how many times that I think leaving the past in the past and moving forward on a clean slate is the best way to drop drama, because rehashing stuff that, at the time, was literally a year and a half old is a waste of time, in my opinion.
Specifically regarding Cook questioning me about it later, I feel like he is so supremely punitive, there is no way I am going to offer any sort of admittance like that to him, no matter how apologetic I am about it, because of how quickly and toxic and the longevity of the toxicity, stuff with him gets. I don't know if you've seen all the messages between us in March, but that shit was crazy how quickly downhill it went. I do not want back into the wiki community, but I've told idk how many people, I would just like to stop being badmouthed, and it seems like 90% of it comes from him, and it's so annoying. If this is what it takes to get it to stop, then so be it, but like... Come on, let's grow up"
After that, IIRC I stayed off everyone's radar for quite some time. I don't think Cook is punitive about stuff anymore, as I haven't seen anything from him, but he was going on about me for literally years after it had ended, so I was really bothered by that, especially since Jayden and I had made up by then, but that's aside from the VIB stuff, so I'll leave it there. Elf of Seren (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Also I want to add as an aside that I don't necessarily agree with everything that I said above (as it was over a year ago), specifically "I thought that it was ridiculous, and I still partially do, that I was banned from editing the wiki since, to this day, I have never vandalized it, only posting legitimate edits" I later had it explained to me why it was done, and I fully understand and appreciate that now. Elf of Seren (talk) 18:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
You're clearly a different person now than last year so I would have preferred a response that actually delved a bit more into your last paragraph, instead of copying some word blob from last year. That being said, I'm not really happy with any of this:
  • We sent a DMCA request because of the Violet is Blue guide being blatantly copied from our site. When you "learned" that plagiarism was against the rules, you did not delete the content, nor did you stop plagiarising: you actually argued to keep the page up so that you could "put it in your own words". Subsequently, we sent another DMCA request to take the page down.
  • Unfortunately, this seemed to start a trend where we had to send multiple DMCA requests to Fandom because content kept being copied from us (Alchemical Onyx, The Needle Skips, M&S Rework). We were at an extremely crucial period of our fork where we were trying to move the community towards a better place. I'm not Cook, and actually I don't really care about Cook being punitive towards you and whether it was justified or not. I was the one that wrote the Violet is Blue guide and it felt like a huge insult to me and our community that you decided to copy content from our Wiki, put it on a site that you knew was harmful to us, and continually deny that you did so. HaidroH rune.pngEagle feather 3.pngCandle (blood red).png 1XqyDNM.png Crystal triskelion fragment 3.pngHazelmere's signet ring.png 01:56, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
When I said I deleted the content, I meant from the lore wiki, not the Ugthanki Dung one. Also on the lore wiki, I tried to source those appropriately, and I believe I did so? So sorry for confusion about that. As for the other takedowns for other pages, I don't think I contributed to those? If I did I'm sorry, but I think I stopped after Violet is Blue, aside from updating the front page with a couple recent update images. Re: denying it I think it was just a situation where I felt a lot of hostility. Like I fully understand regardless of my intentions that my behavior was really hurtful towards the wiki. I didn't realize all of the intricacies, and was honestly just trying to do my own thing. But with a bit of space and time to cool down, I did chill own up to my mistakes and try to make amends, which is why I'm here tbh, with the intention of just having a small presence, not going all the way with rejoining discord and stuff, just here to clear the air and fix what got broken, and contribute in small ways where possible.
If you could, what did you want me to expand on? I'm misreading something and it's not clicking in my head what you mean.Elf of Seren (talk) 02:26, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - the issue here is not whether you’re now "on good terms" with Jayden or anyone else; it's whether you could contribute positively (or at least not create a negative impact) on the wiki if you were unblocked. I am not convinced that this is the case: let's be real here, even setting aside the particular incident that resulted in your ban, your behaviour leading up to the ban was poor and has continued to be since then.

I had actually forgotten but just prior to that you seemed to be getting increasingly frustrated by well-intentioned discussions that were simply made to try and help you, a newer editor with relevant knowledge, make your contributions in line wiki practices that are aimed at keeping information well-organised and optimised for readers (I assume this is what you refer to as "bureaucracy being supremely annoying"). You didn't really engage positively in these discussions; in fact you seemed to spend more time making complaints about other users in the RuneScape and lore discords than you did actually trying to find a solution.

If you're unwilling to work together with other editors in this way then you're fundamentally not compatible with working on a site which is built on principles of discussion and consensus. This is particularly applicable to editors who want to work on lore content - bringing together large amounts of potentially conflicting information and evaluating its accuracy is naturally going to involve more of this type of discussion than other forms of editing. In the time that you've been gone we've become more rather than less stringent on requiring accuracy and sourcing in lore editing. I am not convinced by anything that you've put in your request that you would be able to handle these restrictions on your editing if you were to be able to contribute again.

Then when you were blocked you continued to insist that your action in reporting Jayden was coming from a place of you being legitimately concerned that he was leaking a Jmod's IP. Again you went to off-site chats to try and present the wiki in the worst possible light. Rather than try and resolve this supposed misunderstanding you escalated to forming your own lore wiki and editing the fandom wiki. You copy/pasted content from this wiki to them with little to no changes. This persisted until you were blocked from even viewing the wiki. I'm not convinced that someone who goes to such length and sustains such counterproductive behaviour could ever really come to "fully understand and appreciate" why their behaviour is problematic.

Throughout your block you've continued with your negativity towards the wiki; you've periodically continued with your attempts to portray other editors/the wiki negatively in other chats. You've stated that you’ve continued to edit by proxy. Apparently blind to your audience you've reached out several times to wiki admins to allege wrongdoing from other people in the lore community (interestingly you now seem to have created so many issues within that community that you appear to be banned from the official RuneScape discord). It's also concerning that your first statement in your unblock request is around your concern that "someone in another discord server tried using this over 3 year old block against me". In fact a desire to contribute positively to the wiki appears to come as an afterthought to this. You even used your reply to make out that the wiki, specifically Cook, had somehow been badmouthing you and treating you overly harshly. And this is your behaviour when you say you had been trying to leave us alone and drop drama? I have no faith that you would be able to avoid creating unnecessary drama and conflict here if you were unbanned. Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 23:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

With respect I would like to reply to Isobel's concerns. Isobel is one of the people I apologized to early on because I knew I had hurt her and honestly I had harassed her sometime after, so I 100% understand her hesitation and anger. Yes she's correct I was getting increasingly frustrated with various discussions, actually earlier when I was writing my un-ban bit above, I read the Eriddyn section of my talk page and was like "wow I was a dick". In the three years since then, I believe I have matured in my online decorum. As for saying negative things about the wiki, again I would say that those are more than a year old at minimum, and haven't really said anything negative to my knowledge in recent times. I think the only questionable thing I've said recently is I thought it was weird that the Wiki collects info on the Nationality of JMods. I've made complaints about "wiki-lore" sure, but I honestly don't believe I've actively disparaged it, and I'm skimming through my messages on the RS discord as I'm typing this. The wiki is a widely used tool, it's going to take some criticism now and then, just because I say "oh, the wiki does this weird thing" doesn't mean I'm trying to destroy it.
I have worked with other editors and members of the lore community on several occasions to try and improve lore sections of the wiki, such as Aquamancer and Sir Theodore. On several occasions myself and a small group of players (maybe half a dozen?) actually tried to rally the lore community to work together to edit the Wiki lore pages as a team, however we couldn't muster enough players to do it effectively. This is something Jayden can attest to, as I reached out to him about it, and provided player names and asked about frequently visited pages.
The Lore wiki, and editing the old wiki, I explained above, it was actually a Lore Community project initially, and I just got it spearheaded (Lore FC discord might have those chats if it's still around), but it didn't maintain interest for long (a common theme with the lore community when wiki's are involved xD). I do want to reiterate that it was not an intention at escalation, but I do see how it came across that way, I was just trying to do my own thing thinking "If I leave them alone they'll leave me alone", not realizing that copy/pasting from the old wiki was against the rules.
Re:proxies I've been open and honest about it and any Wiki people that have asked me about it have been chill with it, and some have even made edits on my behalf.
My Ban on the Official Discord is because of an issue with a single individual on the moderation team that was engaging in inappropriate behavior that I alerted others to, and they retaliated against me. I would be happy to discuss this with anyone in private, because I don't want to escalate that situation any more than it already is (My discord user is: Elf of Seren#3754 ). I am currently awaiting a repeal from the community management team. While this is going on I am actually working on a small-scale commercial project with the RuneScape Art community that was negotiated with Mod Warden and Mod Bolton, that should be releasing around the winter holidays, in addition I am in talks with the Lore mods on a similar project for next year (Again I'm happy to discuss these in private chat if proof is necessary).
Finally, that initial line about the "someone in another discord server tried using this over 3 year old block against me" was included as an afterthought. Originally I wasn't going to include it, then I tossed it at the end, thinking it would support my case, but I didn't like how it read having it tacked on at the end, so I copy/pasted it early up front. As for Cook, he's been cordial from what I can tell for the past year or so. My reply was copy/pasted from something I had sent over a year ago, what isn't included in the reply is a screenshot that had him name dropping me over a year-and-a-half (iirc) after I had had any drama with the Wiki community, but as I said it's been over a year, and we've been cordial, I've even apologized to him on several occasions since for my poor behavior in the past.
Sorry about my long winded replies, I'm just trying to hit all the beats. Elf of Seren (talk) 02:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - You have been continually (and recently) harassing wiki community members (in a similar fashion to what you did with Jayden), for the better part of a year. That by itself would be disqualifying, even without all of the history that Isobel and Haidro have brought up. ʞooɔ 02:21, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't think unblocking would lead to anything productive, nor do I really think that marring a public image is a reason to unblock. Move on. cqm talk 08:30, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Support - Unfortunately I have nowhere near the required information to make a fully informed comment, which I feel that the vast majority of the community is likely in a similar boat. I rarely even visit the wiki community, but I always watch Yew Grove discussions. Nonetheless, Haidro has pointed out to me that not only Admins are expected to comment on discussions such as these. I have little to no relationship with any of you here, so I feel I represent a relatively unaffected viewpoint. I've also never interacted whatsoever with Elf. I don't truly know their situation.

I have little to say about the Violet is Blue drama. If I was blocked from the wiki and wanted to edit, I think the pre-fork fandom wiki is probably the first place I would have gone to do so. Plagiarising is a very difficult topic, and I know the drama around Fandom is still painful to a lot of you. Nonetheless, it at least appears on first glance that you are attributing significantly more malice to Elf for these actions than I see as an outsider. It was a mistake, but I think it is something that was dealt with years ago and can be moved past now. 3 Years is a long time for someone to accept responsibility and own their behaviour. The comments here from Elf indicate somebody who recognises their wrong-doing, and doesn't try to hide from it.

My immediate thoughts looking at this discussion with what little information I have, are that either with or without the block being in place, the user will likely continue to contribute positively to the wiki through edits (via proxy if necessary), and negatively to the wiki's community through interpersonal issues. The block does absolutely nothing functional in that sense. It's clear that there is some lingering drama between several of you and that one user about situations that occurred now 3 years ago. Cmq had some good advice about that, which is that it's probably best to move on. That applies to all of you, not just Elf.

If I was moderating this situation as I do in other communities, I would likely opt to give this user a second chance and the benefit of the doubt - unblock, let things lie, and give everyone a chance to move forward. That said, I do not have all of the requisite information, and Cook was fairly concise in suggesting that this user has recently been harrassing other community members for the past year. I do not have information on that, but this may well represent enough reason to deny an unblock.

In general, I see blocking people from a community as a tool to protect people and/or content. If this user has continued to contribute content despite the block, and has continued to interact in the community despite the block. What purpose does this block actually serve? Grace (talk) 04:01, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ban evasion is actually a bad thing. It does not matter if it's done with good intend or not. Elf was banned for a reason and that is something they need to accept if this unblock request fails and move on. Farming-icon.png Salix of Prifddinas (Talk) Prifddinas lodestone icon.png 07:33, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - I think I would've supported if it wasn't for the more recent issues you've had with the RS discord server, showing that your behaviour hasn't evolved much beyond the beginning of your issues here. Talk to Kelsey 13:11, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - Had this just been about the dispute with Jayden I would have been inclined to weak support an unblock, however the more I read about the fallout and the subsequent actions you took it became harder to consider your reasons for a unblock justifiable. This entire request seems to be a strange balance of intention and faith: your mention of this block being used against you, regardless of where in the paragraph it was placed and how much of an afterthought it was, still reads to me as the primary reason you have appealed the block. I can't help but feel that this is all about removing potential ammunition from people you have conflicts with elsewhere, and the very fact that these conflicts seem to be regular occurrences doesn't help either. There is then additionally all the points that Haidro and Isobel made - ban evasion and plagiarism are serious offences and in itself are massive grounds for concern about your future disposition and demeanour should you be unblocked and this obviously isn't helped by your comments about wiki users and the wiki throughout your block. I just honestly can't see everything being peaceful, or have faith that these situations wouldn't arise again if you were unblocked. Ruud10KRalph.png 14:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - Normally I'm all for second chances and redemption stories, but reading this proposal, it sounds like the impetus for it is insincere; Elf does not want to rejoin the community, but wants to receive credit for edits that they perform, despite them already engaging in ban evasion to perform these edits. It would be a different matter if Elf was following Wiki policy and not ban evading, and just wanted to continue contributing to the body of knowledge in accordance with policy, but this is not the case.

Additionally, it sounds that the same behaviour that caused the block has reoccurred recently on the official Runescape Discord. The facts of that situation appear to be in dispute by Elf, so my response is as follows: I am not making a judgement on whether you are guilty or not guilty of engaging in inappropriate behaviour. I would advise you to avoid the appearance of engaging in inappropriate behaviour prior to making a request for ban revocation. Smithing.pngAescopalus talkCrafting.png 15:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - You say that you've changed and you understand what you did, however given the more recent events in the RS discord shows that you haven't learnt anything. This is the kind of toxic behaviour that drives away other genuine editors. Lava hawk.png BlackHawk (Talk)    12:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment - Hi guys, sorry I haven't checked back here in a hot minute. So the two big things I'm seeing are the official RS Discord stuff (and by proxy harassing a current member of the wiki), and editing by proxy.

Re: editing by proxy, I was under the impression that this was allowed, via my discussions with community members (I can provide screenshots if necessary) "Hey, can you edit this template to include this thing that's missing?" or "Hey, I found this source, can you edit this thing to add it in?", etc. I did provide a source edit to Gaga Jack once to copy/paste to White Knight's once. Edit: My intention wasn't to ban evade, which is why I often went through other people, specifically Jayden I asked to make an edit for me a couple times, and being an admin I assumed it was acceptable to have others do that. I was just wanting to make sure a few vague things were sourced or organized better.

Re: Harassing Wiki members, I assume this means Gaga Lady(Jack), and by proxy the Official RS Discord issue, this is an issue between ex-friends, and to my knowledge doesn't involve the wiki at all, so I think any connections between the two are misleading, in my personal opionion. I would rather not blow this situation up again, as it's been handled, but it is a multi-faceted situation (involving a number of people, people stalking others, creating secret groups, and encouraging others to harass others) I was just a figurehead in that I pulled together screenshots. If this is necessary to be expanded upon, I'll do so, but again I would prefer not to add to settled drama. Elf of Seren (talk) 17:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Can you please provide the screenshots relating to proxy editing that you mentioned? Are you saying that you've only made edits in the sense that you asked other people to edit things or have you also edited the wiki directly? Magic logs detail.pngIsobelJTalk page 09:11, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Elf sent me these over discord as he didn't know how to add to the wiki, so I've just posted them below. Talk to Kelsey 18:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)